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[Naltair]

I think many fan bases on the forums seem much more amplified then they really are in reality. But that is another discussion entirely.

[Bourne Endeavor]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Actually, that joke post upthread made me think... there are plenty of fans who are also interested in getting existing non-LIs as romances in ME3 despite them also not having indicated interest. If, say, ME3 introduced Joker as a love interest for both genders of Shepard, what would you think of that? I mean, having him suddenly into male Shepard would be no more or less abrupt than him suddenly digging Female Shepard.

Honestly? My first thought would be, "Okay... so the guy with brittle bones who could barely move without risk of breaking his leg evolved into the guy with a relatively minor limp who wields an assault rifle and now has become your lover boy. Damn Chakwas is good!"

It would come out of left field for either gender to be fairly honest. I cannot say I would fancy a Joker romance out of concern it would feel contrived.

[Centauri2002]

Naltair wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...
I think more accepted is often confused with taken less seriously. They're sexualised and objectified in games. Gay men aren't. I'm not sure which is worse. D:

This is a related point  that I have brought up many times in this discussion which is also something I find disgusting.

Yeah, it goes to show that we, as a society, have still got a long way to go. I've seen essays written on how far we've come in gaming when it comes to female empowerment (using this as an example) but I find myself hard pressed to find examples of characters who aren't objectified. FemShep is one, actually, but that's only because she is basically the same character as MaleShep. 

[jeweledleah]

well...if the subject of the topic is - will revealing bisexuality of pre-existing LI's change them? yes. why? because it means they were hiding these emotions before. or not feeling them and now they do for some reason? why didn't they before and do now? what changed? why did they hide it before and never showed it? if its only Shepard, how did they manage to hide it so well? why didn't they follow through when there was opportunity?

in order to dismiss some of the prior blocks, you'd either have to do some juggling, or (this is not really a spoiler I think, safe enough to say) like in case of Anders dying in Awakenings for some of the imports, and yet being there in in Dragon Age 2 - its more likely going to be the case of "you only thought I wasn't, but tada! I'm actually gay!"

and then there's the whole subjective sexuality deal where characters apparently behave differently not based on your story development (like renegading/or paragoning characters when possible) but based on gender selection alone. (for some reason people don't feel that this is segregation, even though your content is changed/limited based on gender flags ALONE - its a different sort of limiting, but its still limiting)

if you go with "a wizard did it" idea, you're changing a character and you're just asking people to accept it on faith (something that a lot of people are very much willing to do and expecting others to do as well - just look at the VS hate, "how dare they not trust me, how dare they question me?" ) if you are adding in content and morphing characters- you really are morphing them, you are changing their modes of behavior.

you know why I think they scrapped bi relationships for Kaidan and Ashley? because of the Eden prime and and subsequent flashes of attraction that are displayed by them towards opposite gender shepard, giving you hints that maybe there's a relationship to pursue - the flirting, the quips, the slip ups. one of them does it but not both at the same time. they would have to do a hell of a lot more complex writing, they would have to write all those scenes differently, they would have to expand the dialog a great deal to make it work. its expensive and time consuming. they might have planned it, but aside from having Shepards record what one extra line each? they never really got to write anything else.

there's less of an excuse for ME2 (since in ME2 - they handle it a little closer to how it was done in DA2), because there's never really any attraction hints or indications until after loyalty missions - even with Tali, you see that she looks up to Shepard, considers his/her opinion, but you don't see that supposed crush until after visit to flotilla. so it wouldn't have been as difficult to write it in. but they still chose not to do it for whatever reason.

at this point it would really have to come down to "a wizard did it" partial rewrite of character motivations. and yes it would bug me to see all these characters behaving inconsistently in different play troughs - I'm one of those people who really dislikes the "subjective sexuality" mechanic. heck I even dislike the fact that only Shepard who's romancing VS can change their views towards more paragon/renegade direction, unlike Garrus whom you can persuade regardless of your shepard's gender. instead of expanding re-playability, it limits it for me. but I'm in a minority on that and as long as I buy a game anyways, why should bioware care, right?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 23 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[Pwener2313]

Naltair wrote...

I think many fan bases on the forums seem much more amplified then they really are in reality. But that is another discussion entirely.

It actually fits here to some degree. Most people (me included) play Shepard like they are Shepard, even if ME isn't your tipical RPG. You aren't Shepard, it's a mixture of linear gameplay with RPG elements. You aren't Shepard.

[Naltair]

Female Shepard is probably one of my favorite female leads exactly because she is not overly sexualized.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Naltair wrote...

Female Shepard is probably one of my favorite female leads exactly because she is not overly sexualized.

Mine too.

[Naltair]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I think many fan bases on the forums seem much more amplified then they really are in reality. But that is another discussion entirely.

It actually fits here to some degree. Most people (me included) play Shepard like they are Shepard, even if ME isn't your tipical RPG. You aren't Shepard, it's a mixture of linear gameplay with RPG elements. You aren't Shepard.

I always play my Shepard like an extension of myself, seemed to work thus far.

[Centauri2002]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I think many fan bases on the forums seem much more amplified then they really are in reality. But that is another discussion entirely.

It actually fits here to some degree. Most people (me included) play Shepard like they are Shepard, even if ME isn't your tipical RPG. You aren't Shepard, it's a mixture of linear gameplay with RPG elements. You aren't Shepard.

I never play a character as if they were me. I always play the character as how I see them to be. I find self-inserting very odd. >.>

[Pwener2313]

centauri2002 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...
I think more accepted is often confused with taken less seriously. They're sexualised and objectified in games. Gay men aren't. I'm not sure which is worse. D:

This is a related point  that I have brought up many times in this discussion which is also something I find disgusting.

Yeah, it goes to show that we, as a society, have still got a long way to go. I've seen essays written on how far we've come in gaming when it comes to female empowerment (using this as an example) but I find myself hard pressed to find examples of characters who aren't objectified. FemShep is one, actually, but that's only because she is basically the same character as MaleShep. 

There is yet a single game with an avarage or ugly female protagonist that you did not make in some kind of character creation. Still think women have come a long way? In reality yes, in the media? Yes. In video games? *laughs histerically* ....... No.

[Centauri2002]

Naltair wrote...

Female Shepard is probably one of my favorite female leads exactly because she is not overly sexualized.

Agreed. I hope to see more of this from BioWare, and anyone else who catches onto it. Bandwagon, people, hop on now!

[UsagiVindaloo]

Pwener2313 wrote...

They could have as easily made a monosexual race of male looking aliens, but women are more accepted to be bi or gay in the media, games, ect.

It's the same with man liking women x women (girl on girl action). It turns us on. But women don't like man x men stuff (I did a survey on this in high school, no female asked liked the idea of two males getting it one).

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*deep breaths*

... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

*more deep breaths*

.... ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh... oh I only wish that were true. Maybe then I could find decent Sephiroth/Tifa fanfic instead of waves and waves and waves of Sephiroth/Cloud fanworks in every possible permutation.

In all seriousness, this is patently untrue. Take a look at any female oriented fan community for anime, games or TV shows and the majority of it will all be male/male. It makes perfect sense... if boys like to see two girls together, girls are going to like seeing two boys together. Hotness squared and all that.

I don't doubt your survey turned up nothing, but consider that A) that's not representative of the whole, and a lot of women are going to keep quiet on liking male/male stuff because it's looked down on by others, particularly by men who don't "get it". Plus high school community != female gamer community.

[Centauri2002]

Pwener2313 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...
I think more accepted is often confused with taken less seriously. They're sexualised and objectified in games. Gay men aren't. I'm not sure which is worse. D:

This is a related point  that I have brought up many times in this discussion which is also something I find disgusting.

Yeah, it goes to show that we, as a society, have still got a long way to go. I've seen essays written on how far we've come in gaming when it comes to female empowerment (using this as an example) but I find myself hard pressed to find examples of characters who aren't objectified. FemShep is one, actually, but that's only because she is basically the same character as MaleShep. 

There is yet a single game with an avarage or ugly female protagonist that you did not make in some kind of character creation. Still think women have come a long way? In reality yes, in the media? Yes. In video games? *laughs histerically* ....... No.

Can you reword that a little for me? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. >.>

Edited to say: Actually, I reread and I think you're agreeing with me. So nevermind.

Modifié par centauri2002, 23 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Pwener2313]

centauri2002 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I think many fan bases on the forums seem much more amplified then they really are in reality. But that is another discussion entirely.

It actually fits here to some degree. Most people (me included) play Shepard like they are Shepard, even if ME isn't your tipical RPG. You aren't Shepard, it's a mixture of linear gameplay with RPG elements. You aren't Shepard.

I never play a character as if they were me. I always play the character as how I see them to be. I find self-inserting very odd. >.>

I don't, it's how I play Fallout 3/NV (they're the same character in my mind). Not ME though. I would never romance a women like Miranda in real life. I go with the dorky shy ackward smart girl (Liara).

[jeweledleah]

Pwener2313 wrote...

There is yet a single game with an avarage or ugly female protagonist that you did not make in some kind of character creation. Still think women have come a long way? In reality yes, in the media? Yes. In video games? *laughs histerically* ....... No.

have you seen most of the female faces in WoW character creator?  and that include humans, and no you don't get to customize the face, you only get to pick one out of several and like 2/3rds of the faces are scary ugly  - you can even find some not so hot ones for blood elves and draenei who are "the pretty races"

[Naltair]

I should say I insert myself but I also realize Shepard is his own person, just as my Warden represents my feelings and desires but also has his own motivations. Every character I play has a piece of me in them which is why I can rarely be a total dick or evil

[Pwener2313]

centauri2002 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...
I think more accepted is often confused with taken less seriously. They're sexualised and objectified in games. Gay men aren't. I'm not sure which is worse. D:

This is a related point  that I have brought up many times in this discussion which is also something I find disgusting.

Yeah, it goes to show that we, as a society, have still got a long way to go. I've seen essays written on how far we've come in gaming when it comes to female empowerment (using this as an example) but I find myself hard pressed to find examples of characters who aren't objectified. FemShep is one, actually, but that's only because she is basically the same character as MaleShep. 

There is yet a single game with an avarage or ugly female protagonist that you did not make in some kind of character creation. Still think women have come a long way? In reality yes, in the media? Yes. In video games? *laughs histerically* ....... No.

Can you reword that a little for me? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. >.>

(Every female in the FF series)


Sorry, a bit blunt, but so is reality.

[Centauri2002]

Naltair wrote...

I should say I insert myself but I also realize Shepard is his own person, just as my Warden represents my feelings and desires but also has his own motivations. Every character I play has a piece of me in them which is why I can rarely be a total dick or evil

Okay, when you put it that way... I guess I put part of myself into my characters as well. Heck, I feel guilty when I pick some of the meaner renegade options. The turmoil I was in trying to get Morinth... oh dear. >.>

[Centauri2002]

Pwener2313 wrote...


Sorry, a bit blunt, but so is reality.

As I said, I got what you were saying. Which is basically what I said.

[Pwener2313]

jeweledleah wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

There is yet a single game with an avarage or ugly female protagonist that you did not make in some kind of character creation. Still think women have come a long way? In reality yes, in the media? Yes. In video games? *laughs histerically* ....... No.

have you seen most of the female faces in WoW character creator?  and that include humans, and no you don't get to customize the face, you only get to pick one out of several and like 2/3rds of the faces are scary ugly  - you can even find some not so hot ones for blood elves and draenei who are "the pretty races"

It's really hard to make hot women in a game with PS1 graphics.

[Commander_Adept]

****storm achieved. Congratulations, mr. Ramirez. You get Troll-Of-The-Day-Award.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Commander_Adept wrote...

****storm achieved. Congratulations, mr. Ramirez. You get Troll-Of-The-Day-Award.

If I was a troll, that would be funny.

[Pwener2313]

Commander_Adept wrote...

****storm achieved. Congratulations, mr. Ramirez. You get Troll-Of-The-Day-Award.

I really hate that guy. I saw he was the troll OP but ignored him. The discussion seemed legitimate enough without him ****ing everything up with his "it's funny to rape women" comments.

Edit: Oh crap, he's here.

Modifié par Pwener2313, 23 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Pwener2313 wrote...

They could have as easily made a monosexual race of male looking aliens, but women are more accepted to be bi or gay in the media, games, ect.

It's the same with man liking women x women (girl on girl action). It turns us on. But women don't like man x men stuff (I did a survey on this in high school, no female asked liked the idea of two males getting it one).

... you did not just say that mate. Surely you must jest. I have done a fair amount of forum roleplay based either on a fictionalized setting or a real life one. Would like for me to dig up the heap of male slash from the female members? Unlike fanfic much is actually well written but you are deluding yourself if you believe women are any less attracted to male slash as men are to female slash. They are just less upfront about it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Commander_Adept wrote...

****storm achieved. Congratulations, mr. Ramirez. You get Troll-Of-The-Day-Award.

I really hate that guy. I saw he was the troll OP but ignored him. The discussion seemed legitimate enough without him ****ing everything up with his "it's funny to rape women" comments.

Edit: Oh crap, he's here.

Don't worry bro, you're already reported.