1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Do you have some kind of agenda here? Because you are not being constructive. Explain to me how it would be "compelling."

Not being constructive is being okay with the Tali retcon but not okay with a male character developing feelings for MaleShep in ME3.  I shouldn't have to explain how romantic it would be for Shepard to tell Kaidan he has cared for him for years and finally got the courage to tell him he has feelings for him but there you go.

You should explain, otherwise don't say it will be compelling.

[adneate]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And take your rudeness with you? I don't have time for things like this.

I haven't violated any of the terms of service of this site, so I don't have to go anywhere.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Captain Crash wrote...

   

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If Kaidan was bi from the beginning (or even Tali for that matter), I would not care. But doing this this LATE in the game just to please EVERYONE (this really didn't work with DA2), won't make the narrative as good as it could be.

How do you know they wernt from the start?  The way Tali speaks and acts towards my femshep suggests otherwise.  

Fanservice got Garrus and Tali as squadmates.  So it be good if Tali could romance my femshep.  Plus it would be soooo cute! They are so right for each other both being engineeers.

Plus from the talks on the Normandy and all that hugging and squeezing on her loyality mission you can totally see a romance brewing.  It would be a natural development, one I would be quite fond to see.

:happy:

Oh and Kaidan is totally hiding his feeling away.  I have my suspicions just like Ricky Martin! 

I will say that some of it depends on your (everybody in general) perception.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And take your rudeness with you? I don't have time for things like this.

I haven't violated any of the terms of service of this site, so I don't have to go anywhere.

You aren't adding to this conversation. Please leave.

[adneate]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
You aren't adding to this conversation. Please leave.

Just refusing to converse won't make you right. You started the topic and when people don't agree with you and your motives you act like there is some pan-internet conspiracy against you. Prehaps people aren't convinced that your entirely subjective and double standard filled view of how things ought to be done is correct. Maybe they are as invested in the opposite side of the issue, If you don't want to actually talk about it maybe you shouldn't have made the thread in the first place.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
You should explain, otherwise don't say it will be compelling.

Um....I did give you a short explanation of why I find it compelling.   If you want to question my reasoning, I could do the same with you and ask why you believe Tali the walking codex falls for Shep in ME2 is cool but MaleShep approaching Kaidan in ME3 with his feelings isn't??  Also, saying that it would change Kaidan as a character makes no sense, since Kaidan hasn't said he's straight. 

For my reasoning, read the thread. You really didn't give me an explanation.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
You aren't adding to this conversation. Please leave.

Just refusing to converse won't make you right. You started the topic and when people don't agree with you and your motives you act like there is some pan-internet conspiracy against you. Prehaps people aren't convinced that your entirely subjective and double standard filled view of how things ought to be done is correct. Maybe they are as invested in the opposite side of the issue, If you don't want to actually talk about it maybe you shouldn't have made the thread in the first place.

You are just attacking me. Some weren't. I even came to an agreement with some. You are just saying I'm double standardizing. I do want to talk about it. But what YOU are doing isn't helping.

[adneate]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
For my reasoning, read the thread. You really didn't give me an explanation.

I have all you say is that you think it shouldn't be done because it's unrealistic and would damage the characters and BioWare should focus on their "main audience" instead. If you were just interested in the characters then you'd take issue with the retcons that made both Tali and Garrus romance options dispite it being physically impossible in the frist game. This "main audience" line is just speculation, you don't have any data or any proof that what you say is what the majority of the game's customers want. You only use it because it supports your view, the entire argument is just your personal opinion and few made up facts to prove your opinion is the only valid opinion to have on the subject.

You aren't arguing or discussing in good faith, you tried to rig the entire debate so that only you could win.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

For my reasoning, read the thread. You really didn't give me an explanation.

I read the OP and the points you have made aren't very solid.  

THREAD.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
For my reasoning, read the thread. You really didn't give me an explanation.

I have all you say is that you think it shouldn't be done because it's unrealistic and would damage the characters and BioWare should focus on their "main audience" instead. If you were just interested in the characters then you'd take issue with the retcons that made both Tali and Garrus romance options dispite it being physically impossible in the frist game. This "main audience" line is just speculation, you don't have any data or any proof that what you say is what the majority of the game's customers want. You only use it because it supports your view, the entire argument is just your personal opinion and few made up facts to prove your opinion is the only valid opinion to have on the subject.

You aren't arguing or discussing in good faith, you tried to rig the entire debate so that only you could win.

What?

About Tali and Garrus, what's done is done. Let's stop mentioning that. And you did not read the thread (obviously), for I have stated that I am not against LIs being bi, it's just that changing them would ruin believability, consistency, and overall narrative quality (my opinion).

[jeweledleah]

rynluna wrote...
since Kaidan hasn't said he's straight. 

I really despize this argument.  most people don't walk around and announce their sexuality to the world, they just express atraction to whoever they are atracted to and don't mention prior lovers unless its relevant. assuming that they might be just becasue they didn't say they aren't is a bit....can't find a good word to describe it.

but unfortunately - it is the argument that was used already in DA2.  a similar version of that argument was used in ME2.  I think its a cop-out argument (even if I have used it as a springboard for some out of canon fanfic), but since we're talking about fictional characters and not real people who can actualy defend themselves...it will be used again...and again....and again....

my problem with rewriting Kaidan/Ash this way is due to the way ME1 romances, other then Liaras were structured.  there was a lot of ambient romantic content, battlefield flirting, offhand comments, the choice of who gets saved on Eden prime form the beacon, the little smiles, extra conversations...  you will have to explain away why those happened with only one gender. 

why is it that brash and outspoken Ashley suddenly clams up and never shows a single snippet of atraction to femshep acting purely as a platonic friend and a subordinate, even though she flirts and talks about dinners and tinfoil skirts with maleshep?  in public no less. why is Kaidan tripping all over himself around femshep, flirts, mentions how beautiful she is etc, but acts professional and collected around maleshep?  if you were trying to write it well, if you had time and budget to write it well, to make it as meaningful and neuanced as existing romances - you'd have to adress that and more.  in reality it was something that should have been adressed in ME1 and its because its time consuming and tricky that it was removed from end product.

but it seems like the direction the games are taking are that of "wave whatever happened before away and just write in what you want"  if that works for you then I'm happy for you.  it doesn't work for me :/

Modifié par jeweledleah, 23 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[adneate]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
About Tali and Garrus, what's done is done. Let's stop mentioning that. And you did not read the thread (obviously), for I have stated that I am not against LIs being bi, it's just that changing them would ruin believability, consistency, and overall narrative quality (my opinion).

We already lost that why are we trying to hang on to something that is already gone? You're dismissing any possibilty of character change based on the fact that you didn't like how they did in DA2 and you don't think anyone should ever do it again. Prehaps the ME team could pull of a convincing change in ME3 and make a few old LI's options for the same gender. You roundly condemn it based on personal preference and the fact that another development team didn't do a good job of it in your opinion. I've never been talking about adding new bi LIs I'm talking soley about adding this trait to existing characters and you've not convinced me or made a strong case of why it should be avoided.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Some of the stuff posted here just sounds like bad slash fics.

[guacamayus]

- It's unrealistic. Not everyone in life is bisexual. (it's a game, sure, but ME should be one of the realistic kind)
-It's a bit late to make them bi in ME3. ME1 was released in 2007 or
something. If they were going to be bi, it should have been then.
- Wouldn't it be awkward if the LIs were just suddenly bi? It would seem like it was done just to appease people (which is LAME)

I think these are good reasons, and I agree. Im not against bisexual or homosexual romances but each character has its own personality, you cant just make everyone bisexual like in DA2 it doesnt make any sense. I think the best way of keeping everyone happy would be to add a new character for this specific type of romance.

Modifié par guacamayus, 23 mars 2011 - 05:26 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

THREAD.

Why should I have to waste an afternoon reading your opinions on how retconning characters cheapens the romances along with a bunch of posts of you insisting you aren't trolling, aren't a homophobe, or getting bothered by people that have different opinions by you. 

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

About Tali and Garrus, what's done
is done. Let's stop mentioning that. And you did not read the thread
(obviously), for I have stated that I am not against LIs being bi, it's
just that changing them would ruin believability, consistency, and
overall narrative quality (my opinion).

And so this means that your dear Tali is a cheapened romance that's not believable, consistent, or a good quality romance?

Because you want to discuss this, so you should know what's going on before you shoot your mouth off.

And I'm not discussing Tali anymore. Me being a Tali fan has NOTHING to do with this.

[Melra]

I don't mind BI Lis, as long as there's clear point, where you'll be able to take the ''leap'' and if you don't swing that way, you'd be able to forget about it and move on. I don't want any Anders moments into my game. I don't want the characters coming right onto Shepard, like... Trying to have nice conversation with Jacob, only to have him rip his shirt off and jump around your neck. Not my cup of tea. 

Modifié par Melrache, 23 mars 2011 - 05:38 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
About Tali and Garrus, what's done is done. Let's stop mentioning that. And you did not read the thread (obviously), for I have stated that I am not against LIs being bi, it's just that changing them would ruin believability, consistency, and overall narrative quality (my opinion).

We already lost that why are we trying to hang on to something that is already gone? You're dismissing any possibilty of character change based on the fact that you didn't like how they did in DA2 and you don't think anyone should ever do it again. Prehaps the ME team could pull of a convincing change in ME3 and make a few old LI's options for the same gender. You roundly condemn it based on personal preference and the fact that another development team didn't do a good job of it in your opinion. I've never been talking about adding new bi LIs I'm talking soley about adding this trait to existing characters and you've not convinced me or made a strong case of why it should be avoided.

And I don't think there can be a convincing enough change. It's the end of Shepard's story.

[Captain Crash]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I will say that some of it depends on your (everybody in general) perception.

I dont think "everybody in General" holds the same opinion as you even though you want to percieve this. 

You seem to assume everybody agrees with your stance. Look at the length of this thread and the opinions "in general" being shown.   A lot of them conflict with your stance quite openly. 


As long as its fitting to plot, which I think it can quite easily be.   I would welcome it.   

[adneate]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And I don't think there can be a convincing enough change. It's the end of Shepard's story.

Thus far the big driving change for the romances are some sort of big battle, Ilos The Suicide Mission all the big romantic events take place before these events. I'm sure the end of the game will have a similar moment and a similar period of build up that would allow you to do the same thing. While such a change might not work for every single LI in the game there is ample opprotunity even at this late date in the series for a convincing change to some of them at the very least.

[Bann Duncan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

THREAD.

Why should I have to waste an afternoon reading your opinions on how retconning characters cheapens the romances along with a bunch of posts of you insisting you aren't trolling, aren't a homophobe, or getting bothered by people that have different opinions by you. 

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

About Tali and Garrus, what's done
is done. Let's stop mentioning that. And you did not read the thread
(obviously), for I have stated that I am not against LIs being bi, it's
just that changing them would ruin believability, consistency, and
overall narrative quality (my opinion).

And so this means that your dear Tali is a cheapened romance that's not believable, consistent, or a good quality romance?

Because you want to discuss this, so you should know what's going on before you shoot your mouth off.

And I'm not discussing Tali anymore. Me being a Tali fan has NOTHING to do with this.

Yes it does, because the Talimance is the first major romance retcon that BioWare made.