1677 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

michaelrsa wrote...

Also, how many games are there with a gay romance in it that you can remember? I can't think of one personally.

I would like to rectify this. Bioware needs to grow some balls and make some gay only love interests.

Jade Empire and DA:O and DA2.  Depending on your definition of gay romance.  Male/Male is what I think of.  Jade Empire the male could romance and share a tent with Sky.  DA:O you have Zev and DA2 you have Anders and Fenris.

Of all of these Zev is the only one I cared for.  And again, my reason is I play lots of games and i want my characters to be consistant in every playthrough.  I don't want them changing their views about sex in general every time a play as a different Shepard or Hawke or whoever.  It reduces the number of games I will play.  

There are quite a few people who only play one sex or only play a couple of games and thats fine if it's what they want to do.  If that were what I did I wouldn't care but I do play a lot of characters and I want Tali or Jack or kaidan to react the same way no matter what Shepard I'm playing.  I do wish they had a friendship path.

[Volus Warlord]

NO! ME3 MUST BE A GAY ORGIE! THAT WILL BE THE BEST GAME SINCE ...........

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 23 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[Mazder]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
Tali's entire romance was a retcon. The OP clearly doesn't think it ruined her as a character, and if you're saying that you also are a Talimancer, then I'd assume the same, no?

How about Garrus? That retcon ruined him drastically. Nobody at all wants him anymore. He's more unpopular than Jacob even, right? Right?

No, Garrus has a huge fan base and he is still held in high regard.
Also since when was Tali's romance a retcon?
No romance in ME1 for those reasons and then those reasons went away for her and she grew up as a person and romance was made available, not retcon at all, only development.

Modifié par Mazder, 23 mars 2011 - 11:54 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Siansonea II wrote...

Alphyn wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
No, just a stupid homophobic troll (according to some idiots)<_<

Well, that's interesting, considering I'm bisexual as well.

Speaking as one of the aforementioned "idiots", no, you wouldn't be evil if you agreed with the OPs stated opinion in the original post. A case can be made for character continuity, etc. Unfortunately that case has never actually been made in this thread. It's all been "reasons" along the lines of "it would be weird because none of them ever acted gay before" and ridiculous and offensive stuff like that. So, by all means feel free to weigh in with legitimate concerns, I'm sure a lot of people would like to discuss them. Anything coherent and well-considered would be a breath of fresh air in this thread and in this community.

you aren't correct. Cases HAVE been made.

[MisterDyslexo]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

mrsph wrote...
debunked rumor.

The reasoning for femshep being a lesbian and maleshep not being gay is a double standard. Mostly because 12 year olds think it is icky.

I would say that's debunked too, since 12 yr olds play other Bioware games, with the content in the game.

But in those games, they have to choose by reading the words, and they'd need to be able to understand the words. Since they probably don't, they just take a random guess, probably a 1/5 chance or so of romancing, followed by several dialog choices. And said dialogue choices aren't always clearly in the same position. The template in DA:O for dialogue wasn't:

1)Good/Romance
2)Neutral/Not interested
3)Evil/I'd rather rot in a Sarlaac Pit playing "I Spy" for two weeks with Boba Fett

They vary, however we all know the dalog wheel on Mass Effect has a formula.

Besides, do you even think most 12-year olds playing a Bioware game even know along the lines of whats happening in the tent?

[Spartanburger]

Volus Warlord wrote...

NO! ME3 MUST BE A GAY ORGIE! THAT WILL BE THE BEST GAME SINCE ...........

also:
MSHEP X HARBINGER ROMANCE FOR ME3 OR ELSE BOYCOTT![/hurf-a-durf]

Modifié par Spartanburger, 23 mars 2011 - 11:54 .

[jeweledleah]

Alphyn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Speaking as one of the aforementioned "idiots", no, you wouldn't be evil if you agreed with the OPs stated opinion in the original post. A case can be made for character continuity, etc. Unfortunately that case has never actually been made in this thread. It's all been "reasons" along the lines of "it would be weird because none of them ever acted gay before" and ridiculous and offensive stuff like that. So, by all means feel free to weigh in with legitimate concerns, I'm sure a lot of people would like to discuss them. Anything coherent and well-considered would be a breath of fresh air in this thread and in this community.

Well, the term "acting gay" is silly, I agree.

MisterDyslexo wrote...

No, but evidence stands against you as it is. The OP is clearly hypocritical in being a Talimancer that is well a fan of that retcon, but also thinking that a retcon involving who you can romance would ruin the character.

... evidence against me? You mean me being in Clan Zorah? What does that have to do with anything?

personaly, I wasn't saying "acting gay", I was saying - not showing atraction to same sex shepard while showing plenty of atraction to oposite sex shepard.  say what you will about DA2  (and I have plenty to say about it), but  all the characters show their atraction to you as soon as they can, regardless of Hawke's gender.  all but one character either already showed certain tendencies or weren't written extensively enough to create any preconseptions.  none were available as LI's before.  and the character who went through the most extensive rewrites (including retconned possible death)  is so barely recognizable, his "expanded" sexuality is the smallest change about him.  and lastly and most importantly - while its the same universe, you are playing as a different protagonist.

yes, yes, I've heard the whole "but they wouldn't change in YOUR game, they will just act diffrerently in MY game" before.  I think its a clumsy, lazy solution, just like copy/pasting identical dialog for all is.

but then again - I play my rpgs as a "groundhog day"  so to me continuity and integrity of characters through each and every play through matters.

[mopotter]

michaelrsa wrote...

Think about this guys. When our grandchildren look back at past videogames do we really want them to see that the idea of gay romances in videogames was up setting to us?

Look back 50 years and see how people of color were portrayed in film. We look back and see it as bigotry and racism.

Do we really want our grandchildren to think the same of us?

Most of us on this thread, including the OP, want a gay romance in the game.  We just don't want exhisting characters to switch teams.  We want a new character, that they will probably be bringing in anyway, to satisfiy this lack.

[Inquisitor Recon]

jlb524 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...
I'm just waiting for a good gay romance that isn't completely objectified. :3

What does this even mean?

Bioware does a nice thing for gay/lesbian players and added a homosexual romance option in KOTOR and did the same in some later games. Yet then there is this immediate sense of entitlement. All of those past romances are now "offensive" for some reason or another. They are being "mocked" by only getting one gay or lesbian option, or not being able to sleep with whomever they choose. Yet God-forbid anybody oppose whatever they want, as they are "homophobes" and bad people if they do.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

michaelrsa wrote...

Think about this guys. When our grandchildren look back at past videogames do we really want them to see that the idea of gay romances in videogames was up setting to us?

Look back 50 years and see how people of color were portrayed in film. We look back and see it as bigotry and racism.

Do we really want our grandchildren to think the same of us?

This isn't the same.

[Volus Warlord]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

michaelrsa wrote...

Think about this guys. When our grandchildren look back at past videogames do we really want them to see that the idea of gay romances in videogames was up setting to us?

Look back 50 years and see how people of color were portrayed in film. We look back and see it as bigotry and racism.

Do we really want our grandchildren to think the same of us?

This isn't the same.

Yes it is. Shut up and agree. I demand it. Bigot!

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 23 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Volus Warlord wrote...
Shut up and agree. I demand it. Bigot!

The "fight for the love" crowds entire argument in a nutshell.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 23 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Mazder wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
Tali's entire romance was a retcon. The OP clearly doesn't think it ruined her as a character, and if you're saying that you also are a Talimancer, then I'd assume the same, no?

How about Garrus? That retcon ruined him drastically. Nobody at all wants him anymore. He's more unpopular than Jacob even, right? Right?

No, Garrus has a huge fan base and he is still held in high regard.
Also since when was Tali's romance a retcon?
No romance in ME1 for those reasons and then those reasons went away for her and she grew up as a person and romance was made available, not retcon at all, only development.

Oh hey, character development

I'm not bashing you, but if you read some of the post pre-page 35, you would see that what most people say the "bisexualization" process should be. Hell, I'll go back and quote my own post:

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Well I'd like some LGB romances,
but I ain't up for the whole "bisexualization" process of every
character. I'd like to point out a difference between Leliana and Zevran
in Dragon Age: Origins. Leliana basically does nothing to acknowledge
that the relationship is a same-sex one. However, Zevran brings it up
about once or twice. Now, if they built on this, and gave the
Female-Warden and Male-Warden romance different dynamics, it would've
been really good imo. I mean some people are just bisexual, and
bisexualizing everybody is sorta cheap, but from my understanding of
DA:2 (haven't played it yet) there are no distinctions between all the
romances, no rather the gender of your Hawke. I mean, yes, some people
are just bisexual, but 6?? I'd say two is stretching it, and that for
three, you'd probably have to actually have a fairly different romance
between the two, depending on gender. I mean, lets say we took Thane
right now, and made him bisexual. He was married to his wife (WOMAN) so
you'd actually have a lot of room to make the romance between MaleShep
and FemaleShep different and unique. However characters with no real
interesting sexual background or history that could affect the romance,
lets say Tali, Jacob, and Garrus, would probably be cheapened by a
bisexualization. Now some characters, I could see this working for:
Jack-
We already know her story. "Girls club" comment can be interpreted many
ways. However, her survivor's guilt about fact her ex that she
basically killed, and wanted to live together forever as lovers, was
indeed male, could be considered as an aspect of her. She appears to be
bisexual, but that could have really affected her in some way (or not, I
don't claim to be a psychologist)
Miranda- She has a past with men,
relieving herself sexually, but I believe it all relates to her want to
be a mother. She's sterile, however, so this could have a dynamic change
between the MaleShep and FemShep relationship. With FemShep, sterile or
not, there obviously isn't going to be a baby made, but with MaleShep,
if she were fertile, she could become pregnant. So that could be part of
her mindset behind the whole relationship.
Kaidan- H know a lot of
people see him as a potential bi character, for many reasons. He seems
like the guy you could have MaleShep say "Why didn't you tell me about
this before.", and would come back "You never asked." He has his BAaT
experience with the girl Rhana that could be developed, along with the
fact that he quite frankly, was in boot camp, at a relatively young age,
where masculinity is the law, and gay=femininity (or at least so
society holds to be), so I could see something there.

Point
being, don't make them bisexual just to do it. Make them bisexual
because it opens up the character, makes them unique to each separate
romance between FemShep and MaleShep.

That explains my personal stance on the thing. And as you can see, I've made cases for them being developed as a character, and having some sort of dynamic change in character, rather than just saying "O hai I liek u nao, even tho ur a dood too". Seems the same as Tali and Garrus to me, does it not?

[emmanuelsieyes]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Alphyn wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

No, but evidence stands against you as it is. The OP is clearly hypocritical in being a Talimancer that is well a fan of that retcon, but also thinking that a retcon involving who you can romance would ruin the character.

... evidence against me? You mean me being in Clan Zorah? What does that have to do with anything?

Tali's entire romance was a retcon. The OP clearly doesn't think it ruined her as a character, and if you're saying that you also are a Talimancer, then I'd assume the same, no?

How about Garrus? That retcon ruined him drastically. Nobody at all wants him anymore. He's more unpopular than Jacob even, right? Right?

ITT: Retcons are bad! Except when they aren't!

[Alphyn]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Tali's entire romance was a retcon. The OP clearly doesn't think it ruined her as a character, and if you're saying that you also are a Talimancer, then I'd assume the same, no?

How about Garrus? That retcon ruined him drastically. Nobody at all wants him anymore. He's more unpopular than Jacob even, right? Right?

I don't think Tali's romance was retcon at all. I don't really see how this makes my views on bisexual romances any less valid.

Garrus' romance ruined him drastically? Again, I don't think it did. I thought they (Tali and Garrus) were both in character the entire time of their respected romances. I didn't feel that they were retconned at all.

[Centauri2002]

mrsph wrote...

Retcon: A word that is used way too much.

I wonder how many people actually know what it means. >.>

[Inquisitor Recon]

So one retcon justifies making everybody bisexual now?

You know, some things are just better left to fan-fiction.

[Mazder]

[quote]MisterDyslexo wrote...

No, Garrus has a huge fan base and he is still held in high regard.
Also since when was Tali's romance a retcon?
No romance in ME1 for those reasons and then those reasons went away for her and she grew up as a person and romance was made available, not retcon at all, only development.

[/quote]

Oh hey, character development

I'm not bashing you, but if you read some of the post pre-page 35, you would see that what most people say the "bisexualization" process should be. Hell, I'll go back and quote my own post:
*snip*
That explains my personal stance on the thing. And as you can see, I've made cases for them being developed as a character, and having some sort of dynamic change in character, rather than just saying "O hai I liek u nao, even tho ur a dood too". Seems the same as Tali and Garrus to me, does it not?

[/quote]
I agree to do it right off the bat to a charachter with no history of it would be bad, it's a shame that the characters which get the most Bi attention are the ones with no history, even though in ME's case they could just slot it into the 2 year gap thing if they wanted to, even then it'd be a shoddy job.

Making a current character with a history of it is fine, sudden change is a no, and even if the still do it with the whole "the experimented in the 2 year gap" for some it'll still be a little wrong. Some it will be workable, but not great.

[MisterDyslexo]

Alphyn wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Tali's entire romance was a retcon. The OP clearly doesn't think it ruined her as a character, and if you're saying that you also are a Talimancer, then I'd assume the same, no?

How about Garrus? That retcon ruined him drastically. Nobody at all wants him anymore. He's more unpopular than Jacob even, right? Right?

I don't think Tali's romance was retcon at all. I don't really see how this makes my views on bisexual romances any less valid.

Garrus' romance ruined him drastically? Again, I don't think it did. I thought they (Tali and Garrus) were both in character the entire time of their respected romances. I didn't feel that they were retconned at all.

Exactly! They weren't ruined. Something that wasn't available in ME1, that could've been available, was there in Mass Effect 2, and it didn't ruin the game. The developed the character through this retcon (if you could define that correctly). I mean, truly, think back. It was considered character development, was it not? I just posted a previous post of mine (oh no paradox) and I gave ways how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Alphyn wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Tali's entire romance was a retcon. The OP clearly doesn't think it ruined her as a character, and if you're saying that you also are a Talimancer, then I'd assume the same, no?

How about Garrus? That retcon ruined him drastically. Nobody at all wants him anymore. He's more unpopular than Jacob even, right? Right?

I don't think Tali's romance was retcon at all. I don't really see how this makes my views on bisexual romances any less valid.

Garrus' romance ruined him drastically? Again, I don't think it did. I thought they (Tali and Garrus) were both in character the entire time of their respected romances. I didn't feel that they were retconned at all.

this

[nevar00]

Bann Duncan wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


Uh, it was only one joke. They dragged it on for a LONG time.

And yet you also dragged it on along by continually whining that people were offended over that "joke".  You say that this thread is not trolling but you find the things said in here funny and get offended when being called out as homophobic or selfish.  Tali the retcon is OK but Kaidan who was not a walking codex in ME1, then falling for Shepard in ME3 is just dumb. 

If I remember correctly YOU were one of those people calling me a "******." Real mature for you. And I find some the things in this thread  funny, now that I look back at it in hindsight.

If Kaidan was bi from the beginning (or even Tali for that matter), I would not care. But doing this this LATE in the game just to please EVERYONE (this really didn't work with DA2), won't make the narrative as good as it could be.

If Tali was interested in Shepard from the beginning, I would not care. But doing this this LATE in the game just to please TALIMANCERS (this really didn't work with ME2), doesn't make the narrative as good as it could be.

Honestly, the same argument applies. That is my main gripe with the Talimance. Unlike the Garrusmance, it doesn't start in ME2; they retcon her being in love with Shepard since ME1.

I've no intention of doing a Kaiden romance (he always gets left at Virmire) and I am straight, before you call me out for that, but even so the EXACT SAME argument applies to your beloved Tali.

Just stop while you're not even lower than you already are.

Although I generally agree with you, I disagree that Tali suddenly having a crush on Shepard in ME 2 is a retcon.  Just because she was reserved about it doesn't mean she didn't have feelings for your Shep.  And hey, maybe I'm bad at reading people but during my first playthrough of ME 1 I spent the whole time assuming Tali could be my romance option... obviously that didn't work out lol.  My point being that it wasn't too far-fetched to believe that Tali had a crush on Shepard and kept quiet about it.

And that could also work for any bi-characters though; which is why as long as they have a good reason for keeping quiet so far, I don't have a problem with having characters be bi, as long as there is an obvious dialouge option to avoid for those who would not want the characters all suddenly portrayed as wanting your Shep lol.  I doubt I would have any relationships with a bi squad mate for any of my current Sheps, but the option being there would be nice for those who want to use it as long as it is explained well.