1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazder]

The only true "retcons" I have seen in the ME universe in terms of romance has been shepard them selves.
One minute he loves liara for example and then in ME2 he is in love with say, Miranda, just because Liara is going for the Shadow broker, and then the DLC potentially retconned that.

[Inquisitor Recon]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

Do you have any idea how incredibly cheesy this seems? Then multiply that level of cheese by all of the LIs (minus Liara).

LI: I have just decided I am a bisexual, what ever shall I do now Shepard?
<_<

[nevar00]

quote]Bann Duncan wrote...

[quote]Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

[quote]rynluna wrote...

[quote]Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


Uh, it was only one joke. They dragged it on for a LONG time.

[/quote]

And yet you also dragged it on along by continually whining that people were offended over that "joke". You say that this thread is not trolling but you find the things said in here funny and get offended when being called out as homophobic or selfish. Tali the retcon is OK but Kaidan who was not a walking codex in ME1, then falling for Shepard in ME3 is just dumb. {smilie}

[/quote]

If I remember correctly YOU were one of those people calling me a "******." Real mature for you. And I find some the things in this thread funny, now that I look back at it in hindsight.

If Kaidan was bi from the beginning (or even Tali for that matter), I would not care. But doing this this LATE in the game just to please EVERYONE (this really didn't work with DA2), won't make the narrative as good as it could be.

[/quote]
If Tali was interested in Shepard from the beginning, I would not care. But doing this this LATE in the game just to please TALIMANCERS (this really didn't work with ME2), doesn't make the narrative as good as it could be.

Honestly, the same argument applies. That is my main gripe with the Talimance. Unlike the Garrusmance, it doesn't start in ME2; they retcon her being in love with Shepard since ME1.

I've no intention of doing a Kaiden romance (he always gets left at Virmire) and I am straight, before you call me out for that, but even so the EXACT SAME argument applies to your beloved Tali.

Just stop while you're not even lower than you already are.

[/quote]

Although I generally agree with you, I disagree that Tali suddenly having a crush on Shepard in ME 2 is a retcon. Just because she was reserved about it doesn't mean she didn't have feelings for your Shep. And hey, maybe I'm bad at reading people but during my first playthrough of ME 1 I spent the whole time assuming Tali could be my romance option... obviously that didn't work out lol. My point being that it wasn't too far-fetched to believe that Tali had a crush on Shepard and kept quiet about it.

And that could also work for any bi-characters though; which is why as long as they have a good reason for keeping quiet so far, I don't have a problem with having characters be bi, as long as there is an obvious dialouge option to avoid for those who would not want the characters all suddenly portrayed as wanting your Shep lol. I doubt I would have any relationships with a bi squad mate for any of my current Sheps, but the option being there would be nice for those who want to use it as long as it is explained well.

Oh whoops, I didn't mean to post this twice... STUPID MACHINE!

Modifié par nevar00, 24 mars 2011 - 12:10 .

[MisterDyslexo]

[quote]Mazder wrote...

[quote]MisterDyslexo wrote...

No, Garrus has a huge fan base and he is still held in high regard.
Also since when was Tali's romance a retcon?
No romance in ME1 for those reasons and then those reasons went away for her and she grew up as a person and romance was made available, not retcon at all, only development.

[/quote]

Oh hey, character development

I'm not bashing you, but if you read some of the post pre-page 35, you would see that what most people say the "bisexualization" process should be. Hell, I'll go back and quote my own post:
*snip*
That explains my personal stance on the thing. And as you can see, I've made cases for them being developed as a character, and having some sort of dynamic change in character, rather than just saying "O hai I liek u nao, even tho ur a dood too". Seems the same as Tali and Garrus to me, does it not?

[/quote]
I agree to do it right off the bat to a charachter with no history of it would be bad, it's a shame that the characters which get the most Bi attention are the ones with no history, even though in ME's case they could just slot it into the 2 year gap thing if they wanted to, even then it'd be a shoddy job.

Making a current character with a history of it is fine, sudden change is a no, and even if the still do it with the whole "the experimented in the 2 year gap" for some it'll still be a little wrong. Some it will be workable, but not great.

[/quote]

Well, I'm assuming you didn't read the post, because I gave legitimate reasons they could "turn bisexual", so to speak. Its not sexual experimentation whatsoever. It can be put into the game, and can be done very well, if well written, if they give a reason to suddenly "turn bi" other than "Oh yeah I expeiemented a bit". Its exactly what they did with Tali and Garrus, and people applauded. Why are they so hesitant now?

[MisterDyslexo]

ReconTeam wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

Do you have any idea how incredibly cheesy this seems? Then multiply that level of cheese by all of the LIs (minus Liara).

LI: I have just decided I am a bisexual, what ever shall I do now Shepard?
<_<

I don't know, the space chicken with no immune system and a bucket on her head fell for Shepard pretty quickly, after dealing with some person demons and growing over that two year period. You're saying someone else can't do the same? The phrase "sexual repression" mean anything?

[Spartanburger]

mrsph wrote...

Retcon: A word that is used way too much.

*Ahem*
Did anyone even read this?
Hello?

[Mazder]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Well, I'm assuming you didn't read the post, because I gave legitimate reasons they could "turn bisexual", so to speak. Its not sexual experimentation whatsoever. It can be put into the game, and can be done very well, if well written, if they give a reason to suddenly "turn bi" other than "Oh yeah I expeiemented a bit". Its exactly what they did with Tali and Garrus, and people applauded. Why are they so hesitant now?

Uh that's what i said...I said it would work with characters with history and it would not with characters without.
I also stated a way Bioware probably would do it to those characters without history.

And Tali and Garrus haven't suddenly turned Bi, so I have no Idea what you're on about with them suddenly doing it for them.
They were just not romancable in ME1 for both MShep and FShep, and in ME2 they were and it was well written into the story as development, there was no "sudden change" to Bi anywhere, only that they were suddenly romanceable, just as Liara suddenly wasn't.
Until the DLC.

[Almostfaceman]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

Do you have any idea how incredibly cheesy this seems? Then multiply that level of cheese by all of the LIs (minus Liara).

LI: I have just decided I am a bisexual, what ever shall I do now Shepard?
<_<

I don't know, the space chicken with no immune system and a bucket on her head fell for Shepard pretty quickly, after dealing with some person demons and growing over that two year period. You're saying someone else can't do the same? The phrase "sexual repression" mean anything?

It's a matter of taste, you guys are going to be arguing forever.

[Alphyn]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Exactly! They weren't ruined. Something that wasn't available in ME1, that could've been available, was there in Mass Effect 2, and it didn't ruin the game. The developed the character through this retcon (if you could define that correctly). I mean, truly, think back. It was considered character development, was it not? I just posted a previous post of mine (oh no paradox) and I gave ways how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

But... you said that Garrus' romance "ruined" him.

And the only reasons Garrus or Tali weren't avaliable for romance was because:

1) BioWare thought no one wanted to romance them anyway. Especially Tali.
2) There wasn't any need for more alien romances, because Liara filled that role.
3) It was a new game and franchise, so the smartest move was to see how people reacted to being able to be with aliens.
4) You didn't know much about aliens anyway. Especially quarians, because Tali was the only one in the whole game.
5) More reason for you to buy ME2.

Characters becoming bisexual all of a sudden wouldn't be as "all of a sudden" as it's claimed to be. This is BioWare we're talking about. Each character has their own writer. The worst they would do was not explain it, and even then, I can't see many people complaining about that.

[sonofalich]

i hope BioWare doesn't go the DA2 route and make everyone bi.

[Inquisitor Recon]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
I don't know, the space chicken with no immune system and a bucket on her head fell for Shepard pretty quickly, after dealing with some person demons and growing over that two year period. You're saying someone else can't do the same? The phrase "sexual repression" mean anything?

Your argument might have some degree of validity, if Tali was into girls back in ME1.

Now I am no fan of the 'Talimancers', in fact I believe I am only slightly less hated by them than by you. Yet I don't find the Tali romance to be much of a retcon.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Why do you care? The game isn't a dating sim. It's an epic galactic story about defending what we love- and if Shep is bi/******, then that Shep has a right to be. As does any other character. There's no real reason any of the previous romances (okay, well I don't see Tali as ******, but besides her?) couldn't be bisexual. It's up to BioWare.

[Inquisitor Recon]

sonofalich wrote...
i hope BioWare doesn't go the DA2 route and make everyone bi.

Well going by their scale your officially a homophobe / horrible person / big meanie for that.

[Lee337]

I wonder if any of these people throwing the word homophobe around and complaining that they can't sleep with whoever they want do the same in bars, when they find it's full of straight people and don't get anywhere with thier advances towards them. You won't sleep with me?! Homophobe!!

[MisterDyslexo]

Mazder wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Well, I'm assuming you didn't read the post, because I gave legitimate reasons they could "turn bisexual", so to speak. Its not sexual experimentation whatsoever. It can be put into the game, and can be done very well, if well written, if they give a reason to suddenly "turn bi" other than "Oh yeah I expeiemented a bit". Its exactly what they did with Tali and Garrus, and people applauded. Why are they so hesitant now?

Uh that's what i said...I said it would work with characters with history and it would not with characters without.
I also stated a way Bioware probably would do it to those characters without history.

And Tali and Garrus haven't suddenly turned Bi, so I have no Idea what you're on about with them suddenly doing it for them.
They were just not romancable in ME1 for both MShep and FShep, and in ME2 they were and it was well written into the story as development, there was no "sudden change" to Bi anywhere, only that they were suddenly romanceable, just as Liara suddenly wasn't.
Until the DLC.

What don't you get? Seriously? There was a sudden change in Garrus' and Tali's behavior. They suddenly hopped in bed with a human. You don't consider that important? "Oh jeez, interspecies sex. Pffft, I do that twice a day, and always with a new species" Most of these characters can reasonably develop this way. Not all, true. I don't see any reason for Ashley, tbh. Maybe you could say that she is religious, but we don't know whether her religion condemns homosexuality. As for some others, I'll repeat exactly what I posted, because its still viable.

Jack-
We already know her story. "Girls club" comment can be interpreted many
ways. However, her survivor's guilt about fact her ex that she
basically killed, and wanted to live together forever as lovers, was
indeed male, could be considered as an aspect of her. She appears to be
bisexual, but that could have really affected her in some way (or not, I
don't claim to be a psychologist)
Miranda- She has a past with men,
relieving herself sexually, but I believe it all relates to her want to
be a mother. She's sterile, however, so this could have a dynamic change
between the MaleShep and FemShep relationship. With FemShep, sterile or
not, there obviously isn't going to be a baby made, but with MaleShep,
if she were fertile, she could become pregnant. So that could be part of
her mindset behind the whole relationship.
Kaidan- H know a lot of
people see him as a potential bi character, for many reasons. He seems
like the guy you could have MaleShep say "Why didn't you tell me about
this before.", and would come back "You never asked." He has his BAaT
experience with the girl Rhana that could be developed, along with the
fact that he quite frankly, was in boot camp, at a relatively young age,
where masculinity is the law, and gay=femininity (or at least so
society holds to be), so I could see something there where he overcomes his trauma at BAaT (Trauma being experience with Vyrunnus and Rhana).

You don't see any of that as character development? I mean, I'm no expert writer, but that was written up in two minutes, and I could personally do a half-decent job making it feel real.

[Devil Dynamo]

Egads! someone has an opinion slightly different than mine?

Talimancer! Homophobe! Unintelligent Swine!

meep.

[Merchant2006]

Personally I'd think it'd be weird as hell for Male Shepard to suddenly swap to bisexual in ME3. I mean, ME1... ME2... no sign of... yanno.. him being homosexual whatsoever. For ME3 to come out and Shepard be like I NED SOM MALE CAWK (or something to that extent) would be like pulling a grenade out of a packet of crisps.

You'd just be staring at it wondering where the hell it came from.

I don't want BioWare to change existing characters to suddenly become bisexual just because they want to appease that particular demographic; it'd just completely undervalue and downgrade characters.

But hey, as for new characters, fine, they can be bi. But it's going to be weird for Male Shep to suddenly have an attraction to men in ME3. Just saying. I think it's been established from the previous games that Shepard doesn't... go that way... as there's never been an option.

I should go.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 24 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

sonofalich wrote...

i hope BioWare doesn't go the DA2 route and make everyone bi.

Me too. New characters that are bi or gay are a better choice.

[MisterDyslexo]

Alphyn wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Exactly! They weren't ruined. Something that wasn't available in ME1, that could've been available, was there in Mass Effect 2, and it didn't ruin the game. The developed the character through this retcon (if you could define that correctly). I mean, truly, think back. It was considered character development, was it not? I just posted a previous post of mine (oh no paradox) and I gave ways how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

But... you said that Garrus' romance "ruined" him.

And the only reasons Garrus or Tali weren't avaliable for romance was because:

1) BioWare thought no one wanted to romance them anyway. Especially Tali.
2) There wasn't any need for more alien romances, because Liara filled that role.
3) It was a new game and franchise, so the smartest move was to see how people reacted to being able to be with aliens.
4) You didn't know much about aliens anyway. Especially quarians, because Tali was the only one in the whole game.
5) More reason for you to buy ME2.

Characters becoming bisexual all of a sudden wouldn't be as "all of a sudden" as it's claimed to be. This is BioWare we're talking about. Each character has their own writer. The worst they would do was not explain it, and even then, I can't see many people complaining about that.

First of all, letters written like these are called italics, and are used to stress an idea, often times sarcastically. Sarcasm doesn't translate well through type, and thats the closest font to sarcasm.

On topic, to counter your five points:

1. There's certainly a demand for s/s romance, especially for certain characters. Don't say "well some people oppose", because I'm sure that if the forums caught wind of the Garrus and Talimance well before release, there would've been a lot of this "retcon" arguing we're doing now.

2. Well we still have Liara in ME2, do we not? So why need another alien romance then? Hell there was even Thane.

3. And now its not so new, and Bioware can see how people react to change in script. They reacted well to Tali and Garrus being written in as a romance.

4. You didn't know much about asari either, but that didn't stop people from having sex with the consort two hours in, or banging Liara at the end of the game.

5. More reason for me to buy ME3.

[Siansonea]

nevar00 wrote...

Although I generally agree with you, I disagree that Tali suddenly having a crush on Shepard in ME 2 is a retcon. Just because she was reserved about it doesn't mean she didn't have feelings for your Shep. And hey, maybe I'm bad at reading people but during my first playthrough of ME 1 I spent the whole time assuming Tali could be my romance option... obviously that didn't work out lol. My point being that it wasn't too far-fetched to believe that Tali had a crush on Shepard and kept quiet about it.

And that could also work for any bi-characters though; which is why as long as they have a good reason for keeping quiet so far, I don't have a problem with having characters be bi, as long as there is an obvious dialouge option to avoid for those who would not want the characters all suddenly portrayed as wanting your Shep lol. I doubt I would have any relationships with a bi squad mate for any of my current Sheps, but the option being there would be nice for those who want to use it as long as it is explained well.

Oh whoops, I didn't mean to post this twice... STUPID MACHINE!

This is it in a nutshell. If you believe that the Tali romance (and Garrus romance) did NOT ruin the characters, then you should probably also think that a same-sex squaddie discovering they have feelings for Shepard would similarly be 'character development' rather than unrealistic retconning. If anything, it should be LESS of a stretch for the human characters, at least they're the same species, fercryinoutloud. For my part, I actually think the Garrus romance is the most glaring example of disjointed character continuity, Tali was such a drip in the first game it wasn't a stretch for me to believe that she had a thing for Shepard all along, as implausible as that is from a logistical standpoint. But Garrus? He barely spoke to Shepard in ME1 except to carp on C-Sec and their stoopid rules and yammer about Dr. Saleon. And in ME2 it's all "Sidonis was a douche!" and then suddenly we're in weird Reach And Flexibility territory. Talk about WTF. If anything, THIS should be what the people who don't want Kaidan, Ashley, Jack, etc. to be bisexual should be rallying around. The Garrus romance was a complete non sequitur, there was nothing in his character (or, hello, SPECIES) that gave any indication that there would be anything but brofists from our resident turian renegade. But there it is in ME2 for all to see, from calibrations to headbump in nothing flat. And if this is how they plan to implement s/s LIs in ME3, then you know what? Put me in the Do Not Want column.

[MisterDyslexo]

Almostfaceman wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

Do you have any idea how incredibly cheesy this seems? Then multiply that level of cheese by all of the LIs (minus Liara).

LI: I have just decided I am a bisexual, what ever shall I do now Shepard?
<_<

I don't know, the space chicken with no immune system and a bucket on her head fell for Shepard pretty quickly, after dealing with some person demons and growing over that two year period. You're saying someone else can't do the same? The phrase "sexual repression" mean anything?

It's a matter of taste, you guys are going to be arguing forever.

Well yeah, its ReconTeam. We should change his screenname to Stonewall Jackson.

[LiquidGrape]

mrsph wrote...

The Dragon Age 2 romances were exactly what I feared. Since outside of Anders, they were literally just copy and pasted dialog no matter the gender.

I doubt Isabela asked Male Hawke if he was up for some girly fun.