1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazder]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

What don't you get? Seriously? There was a sudden change in Garrus' and Tali's behavior. They suddenly hopped in bed with a human. You don't consider that important? "Oh jeez, interspecies sex. Pffft, I do that twice a day, and always with a new species" Most of these characters can reasonably develop this way. Not all, true. I don't see any reason for Ashley, tbh. Maybe you could say that she is religious, but we don't know whether her religion condemns homosexuality. As for some others, I'll repeat exactly what I posted, because its still viable.
*snip*

You don't see any of that as character development? I mean, I'm no expert writer, but that was written up in two minutes, and I could personally do a half-decent job making it feel real.

Not really about the Tali and Garrus thing.
I mean they were the only 2 aliens left in ME2 that were in ME1 to romance.
And Gurrus said in the game "lets try it" meaning he was experimenting with the person he trusted and possibly loved the most right then, it wasn't sudden, in both cases they were both harbouring feelings for shepard, in Tali's case she could have been with someone of her own species and it still would have been a sudden change, and if it were someone of her own species and she were Bi, would that make it any different?
No.

And yes all of those things for the other characters were development, Bioware just didn't take that route and 2 of them are brand new characters, just having it in a log in the Shadow Brokers Base in DLC is not the same as having writing in another game to reinforce the writing in ME2 like Tali and Garrus had.
Yes in ME3 they can use it to indicate those characters as Bi and it is further development on what they have written there.

[Lee337]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

sonofalich wrote...

i hope BioWare doesn't go the DA2 route and make everyone bi.

Me too. New characters that are bi or gay are a better choice.

Hmmm, but if they make the English big ben guy a bi companion, I'll be wondering why the only bisexual companion is English. I'll be moaning then that they are making a statement against the English!!

[MisterDyslexo]

ReconTeam wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
I don't know, the space chicken with no immune system and a bucket on her head fell for Shepard pretty quickly, after dealing with some person demons and growing over that two year period. You're saying someone else can't do the same? The phrase "sexual repression" mean anything?

Your argument might have some degree of validity, if Tali was into girls back in ME1.

Now I am no fan of the 'Talimancers', in fact I believe I am only slightly less hated by them than by you. Yet I don't find the Tali romance to be much of a retcon.

Personally, I think its a bigger deal to start having sex with an entirely different species than somebody of the same gender in the same species. And quite frankly, I don't think their procreative roles (because I doubt that somehow all alien males have penises like human, and all female aliens have vaginas) would quite matter as much, when thats not really gonna happen. The chance of Shepard getting Tali pregnant is the same whether a man or woman.

[Alphyn]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
First of all, letters written like these are called italics, and are used to stress an idea, often times sarcastically. Sarcasm doesn't translate well through type, and thats the closest font to sarcasm.

On topic, to counter your five points:

1. There's certainly a demand for s/s romance, especially for certain characters. Don't say "well some people oppose", because I'm sure that if the forums caught wind of the Garrus and Talimance well before release, there would've been a lot of this "retcon" arguing we're doing now.

2. Well we still have Liara in ME2, do we not? So why need another alien romance then? Hell there was even Thane.

3. And now its not so new, and Bioware can see how people react to change in script. They reacted well to Tali and Garrus being written in as a romance.

4. You didn't know much about asari either, but that didn't stop people from having sex with the consort two hours in, or banging Liara at the end of the game.

5. More reason for me to buy ME3.

1) One person's "retcon" is "I don't see a difference" to another.

2) Because Liara was only used in ME1 to "test the waters", as it were.

3) ... I forget what I was trying to point out here.

4) That's because asari are so similar to humans in apperance. It's just easier for players to relate to asari.

5) I guess. I'm not all that fussed to be honest. I'm not even sure why I'm in this thread. I just heard there was some trolls trolling trolls.

Meh, I'm leaving. I'm too tired to act smart right now.

[Siansonea]

Alphyn wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Exactly! They weren't ruined. Something that wasn't available in ME1, that could've been available, was there in Mass Effect 2, and it didn't ruin the game. The developed the character through this retcon (if you could define that correctly). I mean, truly, think back. It was considered character development, was it not? I just posted a previous post of mine (oh no paradox) and I gave ways how they could be legitimately developed into bisexuality by actually advancing their character.

But... you said that Garrus' romance "ruined" him.

And the only reasons Garrus or Tali weren't avaliable for romance was because:

1) BioWare thought no one wanted to romance them anyway. Especially Tali.
2) There wasn't any need for more alien romances, because Liara filled that role.
3) It was a new game and franchise, so the smartest move was to see how people reacted to being able to be with aliens.
4) You didn't know much about aliens anyway. Especially quarians, because Tali was the only one in the whole game.
5) More reason for you to buy ME2.

Characters becoming bisexual all of a sudden wouldn't be as "all of a sudden" as it's claimed to be. This is BioWare we're talking about. Each character has their own writer. The worst they would do was not explain it, and even then, I can't see many people complaining about that.

I'm kind of confused where you stand on the original topic now, does this mean you are warming to the idea of existing LIs being bisexual in ME3? For my part, I think it could go either way, but I really object to some of the rationales people are putting forward as supporting arguments for the exclusions (and there are some humdingers just in the last few pages). But a lot of what you're referencing above are very 'meta' examples, and if I read your post correctly, you agree that Tali and Garrus were not originally intended as LIs, and therefore weren't written that way in the first place. By that definition, the character development we see in them in the second game is a sort of retroactive continuity, but I agree that it is permissible to an extent if implemented in a halfway decent way (Tali) but not if it is handled poorly (Garrus). We simply don't know everything there is to know about ANY of the characters, even Shepard, so there is room in their personal histories for some personal revelations that might not have exact parallels in the first two games. And certainly bisexuality isn't the most bizarre new twist that could happen. Certainly no less bizarre than working for Cerberus in ME2. Seriously, this group was a terrorist organization that executed an admiral, countless Alliance Marines, committed all sorts of war crimes, etc., but Shepard is all "if what you say is true, I'd consider helping you" in ME2, no ifs, ands, or buts. THAT was the most jarring thing for me as a player, more so than any aliens hitting on me.

[MisterDyslexo]

Mazder wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

What don't you get? Seriously? There was a sudden change in Garrus' and Tali's behavior. They suddenly hopped in bed with a human. You don't consider that important? "Oh jeez, interspecies sex. Pffft, I do that twice a day, and always with a new species" Most of these characters can reasonably develop this way. Not all, true. I don't see any reason for Ashley, tbh. Maybe you could say that she is religious, but we don't know whether her religion condemns homosexuality. As for some others, I'll repeat exactly what I posted, because its still viable.
*snip*

You don't see any of that as character development? I mean, I'm no expert writer, but that was written up in two minutes, and I could personally do a half-decent job making it feel real.

Not really about the Tali and Garrus thing.

Yes really! Yes really!

I mean they were the only 2 aliens left in ME2 that were in ME1 to romance.

Umm, first of all,

Second of all, since when are the requirements for an alien romance be that they were in ME1? I mean Thane wasn't there.

And Garrus said in the game "lets try it" meaning he was experimenting with the person he trusted and possibly loved the most right then, it wasn't sudden, in both cases they were both harbouring feelings for shepard, in Tali's case she could have been with someone of her own species and it still would have been a sudden change, and if it were someone of her own species and she were Bi, would that make it any different?
No.

Agreed! But that doesn't mean that a select few can't change. I gave four characters; Thane, Kaidan, Jack, and Miranda, reasons as to why they could change. But you're still saying no... Why? This, I don't understand.

just having it in a log in the Shadow Brokers Base in DLC is not the same as having writing in another game to reinforce the writing in ME2

Umm... Yes it is! First of all, LoTSB is canon. The events will have happened in the past, when you play Mass Effect 3, whether you bought the DLC or not.

[Alphyn]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm kind of confused where you stand on the original topic now, does this mean you are warming to the idea of existing LIs being bisexual in ME3? For my part, I think it could go either way, but I really object to some of the rationales people are putting forward as supporting arguments for the exclusions (and there are some humdingers just in the last few pages). But a lot of what you're referencing above are very 'meta' examples, and if I read your post correctly, you agree that Tali and Garrus were not originally intended as LIs, and therefore weren't written that way in the first place. By that definition, the character development we see in them in the second game is a sort of retroactive continuity, but I agree that it is permissible to an extent if implemented in a halfway decent way (Tali) but not if it is handled poorly (Garrus). We simply don't know everything there is to know about ANY of the characters, even Shepard, so there is room in their personal histories for some personal revelations that might not have exact parallels in the first two games. And certainly bisexuality isn't the most bizarre new twist that could happen. Certainly no less bizarre than working for Cerberus in ME2. Seriously, this group was a terrorist organization that executed an admiral, countless Alliance Marines, committed all sorts of war crimes, etc., but Shepard is all "if what you say is true, I'd consider helping you" in ME2, no ifs, ands, or buts. THAT was the most jarring thing for me as a player, more so than any aliens hitting on me.

I'm confused, too.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Lee337 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

sonofalich wrote...

i hope BioWare doesn't go the DA2 route and make everyone bi.

Me too. New characters that are bi or gay are a better choice.

Hmmm, but if they make the English big ben guy a bi companion, I'll be wondering why the only bisexual companion is English. I'll be moaning then that they are making a statement against the English!!

I doubt he's a squadmate, no offense.

[Siansonea]

Personally, I don't care if BioWare games are dating sims or whatever, as long as they are ALSO great games with compelling stories and rich environments. The romance stuff is thoroughly optional (I should know, I skipped it altogether in some of my playthroughs) but it does add a layer to the experience. Disparaging it as less of a worthwhile narrative device than other story elements is to condemn pretty much all other entertainment media as well. "Yeah, we didn't need the Aragorn/Arwen romance in Lord of the Rings, what is this movie, a dating sim?" "And Romeo and Juliet, that stupid Shakespeare, what was he writing, a dating sim?" Seriously, let's get off that dead horse already.

[Mazder]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
Yes really! Yes really!

I mean they were the only 2 aliens left in ME2 that were in ME1 to romance.

Umm, first of all,

Second of all, since when are the requirements for an alien romance be that they were in ME1? I mean Thane wasn't there.

And Garrus said in the game "lets try it" meaning he was experimenting with the person he trusted and possibly loved the most right then, it wasn't sudden, in both cases they were both harbouring feelings for shepard, in Tali's case she could have been with someone of her own species and it still would have been a sudden change, and if it were someone of her own species and she were Bi, would that make it any different?
No.

Agreed! But that doesn't mean that a select few can't change. I gave four characters; Thane, Kaidan, Jack, and Miranda, reasons as to why they could change. But you're still saying no... Why? This, I don't understand.

just having it in a log in the Shadow Brokers Base in DLC is not the same as having writing in another game to reinforce the writing in ME2

Umm... Yes it is! First of all, LoTSB is canon. The events will have happened in the past, when you play Mass Effect 3, whether you bought the DLC or not.

First of all Liara was a DLC continuation, easily missed and not part of the original writing on the game.
Second I agreed with you on the fact in ME3 they can turn those characters Bi. I never said you couldn't.
I said if they were to do it with existing character that DIDN'T have the background.
And the fact that the Shadow Broker logs are there and will be cannon is just a cheap slot in just so Bioware can say "Oh it was there, you just had to buy this DLC in ME2 in order to know it was there."

And the fact that Garrus and Tali were going with another species is a sudden change and bad, yeat when Thane does it it's supposedly good by your logic?

Modifié par Mazder, 24 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[jlb524]

LiquidGrape wrote...

mrsph wrote...

The Dragon Age 2 romances were exactly what I feared. Since outside of Anders, they were literally just copy and pasted dialog no matter the gender.

I doubt Isabela asked Male Hawke if he was up for some girly fun.

You never know...there was that one time with the cross-dressing dwarf.

[MisterDyslexo]

Mazder wrote...

First of all Liara was a DLC continuation, easily missed and not part of the original writing on the game.
Second I agreed with you on the fact in ME3 they can turn those characters Bi. I never said you couldn't.
I said if they were to do it with existing character that DIDN'T have the background.
And the fact that the Shadow Broker logs are there and will be cannon is just a cheap slot in just so Bioware can say "Oh it was there, you just had to buy this DLC in ME2 in order to know it was there."

And the fact that Garrus and Tali were going with another species is a sudden change and bad, yeat when Thane does it it's supposedly good by your logic?

First of all, LoTSB in part of the game, its in the writing, its canon. If you believe that they're making it canon as a gimmick to sell it, so be it, but Liara being Shadow Broker is going to impact Mass Effect 3. Personally I think they're actually going to build on it in ME3, so I don't see it as a cheap trick, and see the logs as legitimate things about the character to know, not bull**** filler (thats the vibe you're sending off about your belief anyways).

And with Thane, I was confused by your logic. It seems that you were saying that for an alien to be a LI in ME2, they had to be in ME1. Such obviously was not the case. They didn't absolutely need to make Tali and Garrus romanceable. Bioware could've written in some new aliens. They could've finished one *cough cough* Samara *cough cough*
But in the end, Bioware decided to make them, current characters, romanceable. I think they should do the same with some in Mass Effect 3 by making them romanceable to both sexes (assuming that there's a difference between the romances, and that its character development. Otherwise it sadly just detracts). I think, in particular with Miranda, "bisexualizing" them would be better than making a new character. For one, it'll obviously please some people. Another is that its easier expanding on a character than creating a new one with just as much depth.

Of course this is all assuming that Bioware doesn't completely cop-out in Mass Effect 3, and they don't just make all the new characters essentially Jacob's, with no personality. Then, pretty much any argument for this character development, nay, anything in Mass Effect 3, is pretty moot.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 24 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Siansonea]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Actually, I think it would be quite interesting for the writers to further delve into Tali's character.  She's young and innocent, and trying to wade through the waters so to speak.  Her relationship with Male Shepard could be just considered as a experimentation, or a represenation of something else. 

Through her trials and tribulations of the previous 2 games, Tali may very well have discoverd that she is indeed homosexual, and that the attraction that she showed towards male Shepard, was more of him filling the role of a father figure.

Or, she could realize that she has a duty to the dwindling quarian race to have a quarian child, and a quarian mate, someone who really understands what she goes through hauling Dat As$ around all the time. "Shepurt, I'm sorry, but I owe it to my people (insert five paragraphs about quarian culture here) to settle down with Kal'Reeger and pop out some quarian puppies. But ve'll alvays have those precious moments before ve vent after the Collectors, memories I cherish, and for which I'm still taking antibiotics.*coughs*"

[Ramirez Wolfen]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote..
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Actually, I think it would be quite interesting for the writers to further delve into Tali's character.  She's young and innocent, and trying to wade through the waters so to speak.  Her relationship with Male Shepard could be just considered as a experimentation, or a represenation of something

Or, she could realize that she has a duty to the dwindling quarian race to have a quarian child, and a quarian mate, someone who really understands what she goes through hauling Dat As$ around all the time. "Shepurt, I'm sorry, but I owe it to my people (insert five paragraphs about quarian culture here)[i] to settle down with Ka

no. side note your post was messed up on accident.

[Siansonea]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Siansonea II wrote..

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Actually, I think it would be quite interesting for the writers to further delve into Tali's character.  She's young and innocent, and trying to wade through the waters so to speak.  Her relationship with Male Shepard could be just considered as a experimentation, or a represenation of something else. 

Through her trials and tribulations of the previous 2 games, Tali may very well have discoverd that she is indeed homosexual, and that the attraction that she showed towards male Shepard, was more of him filling the role of a father figure.

Or, she could realize that she has a duty to the dwindling quarian race to have a quarian child, and a quarian mate, someone who really understands what she goes through hauling Dat As$ around all the time. "Shepurt, I'm sorry, but I owe it to my people (insert five paragraphs about quarian culture here) to settle down with Kal'Reeger and pop out some quarian puppies. But ve'll alvays have those precious moments before ve vent after the Collectors, memories I cherish, and for which I'm still taking antibiotics.*coughs*"

no. side note your post was messed up on accident.

It's HTML. It's not that hard. But hey, if you're that dedicated to preserving character continuity, you have to admit that Tali has a duty to her people to have quarian babies. Didn't she say even as an exile her children would be welcome in the Flotilla because there are so few quarians? Hate to break it to you, but the quarian people will always come before Shepard's trouser snake on Tali's list of priorities. That is, if we're concerned about preserving character continuity.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 24 mars 2011 - 01:40 .

[mopotter]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Why do you care? The game isn't a dating sim. It's an epic galactic story about defending what we love- and if Shep is bi/******, then that Shep has a right to be. As does any other character. There's no real reason any of the previous romances (okay, well I don't see Tali as ******, but besides her?) couldn't be bisexual. It's up to BioWare.

Of course it's up to BioWare.  They will do what they want no matter what anyone else wants.  Some people will be happy some won't.    And there is no reason to think they will do anything to ME1 LI, but they could.   So it's something to talk about until the game is out, or until the DLC is here.  

And I'm going to make sure they know the reasons, if they happen to read it, that I'm on the side that won't be happy if they do something that is going to reduce the number of plays I run through.  

Bringing in a new character that is gay or openly bisexual  will give me additional plays.  A new character who is gay or bi-sexual would work since I have no history with them.  

Turning any of the existing LI bisexual will reduce the number of my play throughs.  I will not play a game that is going to mess of the consistance of the characters.  Kadain and Ash in ME1 and whoever was romanced in ME2 are set and should not be writen to switch teams in ME3.  

Jack I'm on the fence about and while I'd personally keep her straight, I can accept that she might be interested in Fem Shepard after surviving the final mission since she did mention a 3some but it should have been done in ME2 if it was going to be done.

Talli and Garrus did not romance anyone in ME1, and while I would have perfered Tali  to have a fling with Kal'reegar and Garrus to just be a friend  I don't have a problem with it. They act the same in every game I play no matter if I'm Jake Shepard or Sandy Shepard and that is the whole reason I would rather have a new character instead of changing old ones.  Consistency in my different games.  

[Siansonea]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Or, she could realize that she has a duty to the dwindling quarian race to have a quarian child, and a quarian mate, someone who really understands what she goes through hauling Dat As$ around all the time. "Shepurt, I'm sorry, but I owe it to my people (insert five paragraphs about quarian culture here) to settle down with Kal'Reeger and pop out some quarian puppies. But ve'll alvays have those precious moments before ve vent after the Collectors, memories I cherish, and for which I'm still taking antibiotics.*coughs*"

I like the idea that Shepard can't romance everyone, like Samara for example.  Let's add a little tragedy as well.  Why not?  The argument can be made that a Shepard that romances Tali in ME2, could indeed be having some issues here.  Think about it...you got dat ass, but so does the 13 yr old girl down the street.  You gotta wonder about Shepard's alignment in this situation.  Is he chaotic, or is it something darker than this? 

Here we have a confused-young-impressionable girl, who is seeking out her own identity, and who looks up to Male Shepard as a father figure...a role model, and all he can think of is tapping dat ass.

Hell, I'm starting to feel dirty for buying this title.  Just what kind of game is Bioware developing here for crying out loud?!

Shepard's not the first man in the galaxy to be brought low by Lovely Lady Lumps.

[Siansonea]

mopotter wrote...

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Why do you care? The game isn't a dating sim. It's an epic galactic story about defending what we love- and if Shep is bi/******, then that Shep has a right to be. As does any other character. There's no real reason any of the previous romances (okay, well I don't see Tali as ******, but besides her?) couldn't be bisexual. It's up to BioWare.

Of course it's up to BioWare.  They will do what they want no matter what anyone else wants.  Some people will be happy some won't.    And there is no reason to think they will do anything to ME1 LI, but they could.   So it's something to talk about until the game is out, or until the DLC is here.  

And I'm going to make sure they know the reasons, if they happen to read it, that I'm on the side that won't be happy if they do something that is going to reduce the number of plays I run through.  

Bringing in a new character that is gay or openly bisexual  will give me additional plays.  A new character who is gay or bi-sexual would work since I have no history with them.  

Turning any of the existing LI bisexual will reduce the number of my play throughs.  I will not play a game that is going to mess of the consistance of the characters.  Kadain and Ash in ME1 and whoever was romanced in ME2 are set and should not be writen to switch teams in ME3.  

Jack I'm on the fence about and while I'd personally keep her straight, I can accept that she might be interested in Fem Shepard after surviving the final mission since she did mention a 3some but it should have been done in ME2 if it was going to be done.

Talli and Garrus did not romance anyone in ME1, and while I would have perfered Tali  to have a fling with Kal'reegar and Garrus to just be a friend  I don't have a problem with it. They act the same in every game I play no matter if I'm Jake Shepard or Sandy Shepard and that is the whole reason I would rather have a new character instead of changing old ones.  Consistency in my different games.  

Let's be clear about something. Being bisexual isn't "switching teams", it's playing for BOTH teams. And if anything, it ADDS variety for multiple playthroughs. Now Jake AND Sandy can mack on Miranda/Tali/Kaidan/whoever. Don't see how adding options EVER takes anything away from the game. But for full disclosure, I admit I'm no math expert.

[mopotter]

Spartanburger wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Retcon: A word that is used way too much.

*Ahem*
Did anyone even read this?
Hello?

There are a lot of over used words on the social site.  I'm making a list
retcon
whiny
troll

I'm sure there are more.

[Almostfaceman]

Siansonea II wrote...

Let's be clear about something. Being bisexual isn't "switching teams", it's playing for BOTH teams. And if anything, it ADDS variety for multiple playthroughs. Now Jake AND Sandy can mack on Miranda/Tali/Kaidan/whoever. Don't see how adding options EVER takes anything away from the game. But for full disclosure, I admit I'm no math expert.

Let's be clear about something, revealing to someone who's thought you're straight (or gay) that you're "bi" is switching teams.  You've gone from team straight to team bi.  Or team gay to team bi.  

Some people aren't comfortable with that change.  You have to respect that, just as they have to respect you are.