1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

7.  Why Bioware can't do it for folks who want Bi LIs? Simple:

It's too late and it ruins the character (if you ask me)

It effects me only if the character wasn't bi or gay from the start and just suddenly chooses to be that way. Otherwise, I don't care.

It is clear that you're either a homophobe or just a REALLY closed minded person who beliefs that your beliefs are the superior beliefs over others if they don't agree with you. When I make a opinion, at least I detail it bit by bid and not offer "vague" sentences that just beats around the bush. It is clear that you have no real justification to not having old characters turn BI in ME3 other than you are just against it. Very elementary argument if you ask me.

Also, you fail to answer my question regarding Bioware doing the Tali romance in ME2 to appease a "niche audience". Judging by your sig, you have a Tali/Shepard romanced theme sig which would imply that you support/liked the Tali romance in ME2. 

It wasn't implied NOWHERE in ME1 that Tali was interested in Shepard or that humans can have sex with Quarians. However all of that changed for ME2 because suddenly Tali gained this huge fanbase, even larger than Wrex's. This fanbase (mostly younger teenage boys) found Tali very attractive and was kinda set back that she wasn't a romance option alongside Liara and Ashley. Even Bioware admitted that they didn't expect people to find aliens with a hidden face and "chicken feet" to be viewed as sexy/attractive. So they decided to "Appease" to this crowd and make Tali not only Shepard's cheerleader in ME2, but also his romance.

You seem to support Bioware's decision to "appease" to the "Talimancer" crowd by doing a 180 turn and making Tali a romance option out of nowhere. However you are against Bioware to "appease" to the BI romance supporters to do a 180 turn and making Ashley/Kaiden/Miranda/Jack/Jacob etc....BI romance options.

Again, this just proves that your argument is lacking valid foundation as you have faild to really detail your motives outside of "I just think it's weird" stance.

And if you cannot dig up such validation then yes, you are a homophobe.

Calling me a homophobe because I don't want characters being changed this late in the game? REALLY? <_<

Attacking the Tali fanbase, too?

Your point is invalid.

[Naltair]

Same sex romances will always be a hot button issue in our current society.  Especially male same sex romances.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 04:35 .

[RenownedRyan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I made this thread because I was a little worried after DA2 (my opinion only)

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a homophobe. This is just how I feel. This is not homophobic. Anybody who calls me one is just as bad as the ones who ARE anti gay.

Why? For the following reasons:

1. It cheapens the romances.
2. The romances lose their uniqueness (kind of like 1, but whatever)
3. It's unrealistic. Not everyone in life is bisexual. (it's a game, sure, but ME should be one of the realistic kind)
4. If it happened, there would be arguments over whether Manshep or Femshep is better with x character.
5. DA2 tried this, but if you ask me, it didn't feel as good as the ME romances.
6. It's a bit late to make them bi in ME3. ME1 was released in 2007 or something. If they were going to be bi, it should have been then.
7. Wouldn't it be awkward if the LIs were just suddenly bi? It would seem like it was done just to appease people (which is LAME)

EDIT:
8. If at least ONE person that could have been bi, it should have been Jack (my opinion)

So do you agree with me? Do you disagree?


Discuss.

I've put in the bold the ones I agree with entirely!  This is a fantastic thread.  I have nothing against Gay people.  I believe that they should have full rights everywhere.

But it makes it awkward for me as a straight guy when one of my party members in Dragon Age hits on me.  I believe that gay people are fully capable of helathy, safe relationships, but it is just too difficult to party someone of the same sex who is openly trying to bed your character.  

"Just my opinion though.  Really no need to go spreading it around.:"

[Elite Midget]

Yet Shepard didn't like Quarians untill Bioware retconned that in ME2. Hell, they never planned on making Tali a LI EVER untill she became widely popular later on.

Just like the Tali movement the BI movement is much more popular than the Hate Movement.

DA2 is just the start which Bioware will most likely continue as they appeal to an ever larger market and quite frankly those in support of Bi LIs are far larger than those that Hate all things not straight.



Hell, look at the Mordern World, 10 to 20 years ago Gays and Lesbians couldn't even go to Church, were shunned if they tried Politics, and were generally hated on. In Mordern Times it's okay to be Gay/Lesbian and no one really cares anymore at least in the West.

You know since now people are more acknowledable on choices that people choose to make for themselves which Shepard should be able to do as well just like Hawke in DA2 can.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 22 mars 2011 - 04:39 .

[Spornicus]

The problem is, it was so easy to romance a character in ME2. In fact, every conversation path with LI's seemed to lead to romance. Sometimes I'd have the intent to romance Jack or Tali, and then accidentally make a pass at Miranda. Now consider that with same-sex LI's. Now I have the potential to accidentally fall into a romance with anyone, and it'd get frustrating, not because I'm against gays or whatever, but just because it's a whole new group of people to have to steer a conversation around.
It's also what makes male and female Shepard unique. If they can romance the same people, then they're pretty much the same character, and there's not really a reason to choose either. The whole element of the two genders will be lost.

[UsagiVindaloo]

For those that are saying that it would suddenly be a "change" for characters to "suddenly" "become" bi, I think you're all forgetting something...

Sometimes it takes *time and courage* to come out, even just to one person.

And sometimes the feelings are confused and it takes months, years even, to realize that the little squiggly feelings you have for your best guy friend are more than epic bromance.

Thus it could be very realistic to have some of the existing characters "come out" as bi if they were coming to terms with these struggles. Kaidan, for example, may have had unresolved feelings towards Male!Shepard from the very first game, but because he wasn't sure of himself and didn't want to be hassled for his sexuality (bear in mind that, asari aside, we don't know how homosexuality is viewed, it might still be despised), he kept it all very close to the chest and did not openly indicate his interest. After Shepard died, he began to reevaulate his emotions and recognize that his feelings went beyond mere bromance/friendship. Horizon happened, and part of Kaidan's anger was due to feelings of betrayal and frustrated love. ME3 rolls around, and he finally makes his move.

Boom, that's how you "turn" an existing character bi, and notice that it in no way, shape or form ruins Kaidan's character at all... in fact, it just gives another interesting facet to his character.

Now, I *do* agree that making every single LI bi is a bit of a copout and may not work for each character. My votes are on the following, with dialogue indicating that they had had feelings for Shepard earlier but had been struggling with whether to "come out":
- Garrus - this would be very easy to envision, considering the entire core of his relationship is, "I'm not sexually attracted to humans, just to Shepard." Same could go for men.
- Tali - her attraction to Fem!Shepard is actually canon (she gets flustered when talking about suit sharing etc) and it took her an entire game to confess her feelings to Male!Shepard... I could easily see her shyness making her take even longer to confess to Fem!Shep.
- Jack - makes sense with her character backstory. As for why she didn't go for FemShep to begin with, could just be that she's had bad experiences with women before (e.g. Manara and her boyfriend) and was a bit more distrustful of a woman, but now she knows Shepard...
- Kaidan - see above.

[Elite Midget]

It's so easy because people don't understand that Paragon, Neutral, and Renegade isn't always the same on the Squaddies wheels.

For LI's it's Interest, Just Friends, and Rejection.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 22 mars 2011 - 04:41 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nyoka wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Thane would become Zevran. If you ask me, NO. (I like Zevran and I am a STRAIGHT male, but no)

Also, IT IS TOO LATE TO ADD THAT.

Who's Zevran? Someone from another game? What does that have to do with Mass effect? Do you think the only possibility is to make the same exact system that another different game has, including all its flaws? It can't possibly be corrected and made right? Why?

Also, why is too late? I don't think so. I think it's just the right time, since we didn't have the possibility to enjoy that in the previous game. The timing is fine. You are going to have to justify that through some kind of argument.

1) I'm saying that he would be too much like Zevran.

2) It's too late because it is TWO games in. Making everyone bi now would just be awkward and won't look right. And for the reasons I said in my original post.

[coolair74]

Elite Midget wrote...

My Renegade Male Shepard wanted a romance with another man.

This is a contradiction since male Shepard isnt gay. He dont want it.

There was no such option.

Point prooven.

My Renegade FemSheoard wanted a romance with another woman.

She has option.

Not really , Kelly is not considered a true romance but I get your point, Femshep is bi, we accept this, we like this.

See how messed up that is? So how it's okay to have woman on woman action yet no man in ME can show an interest in Shepard or likewise?
 
He isnt gay. Get that through your noggin.

That's hypocritical to the core and I facepalmed when a Dev one said that Male Shepard wasen't gay in a game about CHOICES.

He was correct, You play as  [Name} Shepard , A strait male who has gotta stop them.

[ReiSilver]

RenownedRyan wrote...
But it makes it awkward for me as a straight guy when one of my party members in Dragon Age hits on me.  I believe that gay people are fully capable of helathy, safe relationships, but it is just too difficult to party someone of the same sex who is openly trying to bed your character. 

What about if you were gay, wouldn't it be awkward to have women hitting on you? Or if you were a gay woman to have male characters hit on you? Or straight women having to deal with just about every second Asari you meet in the game?

[RenownedRyan]

Naltair wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

It didn't stop them making Tali suddenly interested in aliens out of the blue in ME2, but she's not bi so CRISIS AVERTED! CHARACTER TOTALLY NOT CHEAPENED but if she had been interested in female shepard then whoa there, how unrelaistic, STOP THE FUN BUS.

It irritates me when people complain that a character being bisexual cheapens the all important straight romance. You can't enjoy your pie knowing someone else also enjoys it? It's like saying a character shouldn't be interested in Renegade Shepard because they were totally into my paragon! How can they like a renegade? So unrealistic!<_<

My biggest irritation is that people want more same sex choices for female Shepard, probably because they are male and uncomfortable romancing a a male character with a female avatar, while Male Shepard has no same sex options.

This.  I'd say around 75% of the people who champion same sex relationships in games are straight guys hoping to get hot and bothered watching two female avatars have "sex".

[NanQuan]

I don't understand the use of DA2 as an example of bisexual relationships. The characters aren't bisexual in DA2. Some characters change sexuality based on the player's profile. For example, If you play as male, Anders will be homosexual and if you play as female he will be heterosexual. Then the player has the OPTION to romance him. You however, are not forced to and he will not push the issue unless you pick to flirt with him. Hell, I flirted with him in DA2 just to keep my options open, but when I decided to say no thanks to Anders, he never pressed the issue again. There was just no longer any romantic tension. And I thought that worked just fine. The closest I ever got to unwanted advances in DA2 was from Isabella, even though I never chose to flirt with her, but come on - it's isabella. That's to be expected.

I also disagree that DA2 had cheaper romances than ME2. In my opinion, the only relationship between BOTH games that offers any real closure is Liara's and she is bisexual. I'm not saying the romances are bad, and there is variety so that people will be pleased, but I see no real difference between DA2 and ME1&2 romances with the exception of Liara (and only Liara if we count LotSB; without that it is the same as the others). And that's really only because her's is the most fleshed out and it doesn't hurt that it has the most content thus far.

My point is, that you shouldn't really be afraid of bisexual love interests in ME3 because if they are like DA2 (like you said) then they won't be bisexual. They'll change sexuality depending on your shep's gender. And if it's done like DA2, then they won't make advances at you unless you also make advances at them. So there won't be a problem because if you don't want Garrus or whoever to be homosexual, then he won't be because you won't flirt with him.

[Wittand25]

I want fully developed s/s romances for both Shepard´s in ME3.
My ideal solution would be that if you import a safe in which Shepard had no romance during ME1 and ME2 you can start one with the VS regardless of gender. And since the VS could be (and by default is) opposite gender to Shepard there should be both an additional f/f and m/m romance with a new squad mate. That way you can have an m/m romance that spans the whole trilogie (even if it develops way slower than the other romances).

[Naltair]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yet Shepard didn't like Quarians untill Bioware retconned that in ME2. Hell, they never planned on making Tali a LI EVER untill she became widely popular later on.

Just like the Tali movement the BI movement is much more popular than the Hate Movement.

DA2 is just the start which Bioware will most likely continue as they appeal to an ever larger market and quite frankly those in support of Bi LIs are far larger than those that Hate all things not straight.

Hell, look at the Mordern World, 10 to 20 years ago Gays and Lesbians couldn't even go to Church, were shunned if they tried Politics, and were generally hated on. In Mordern Times it's okay to be Gay/Lesbian and no one really cares anymore at least in the West.

You know since now people are more acknowledable on choices that people choose to make for themselves which Shepard should be able to do as well just like Hawke in DA2 can.

Agian I don't see DA2 as a way to go, it's a good move but having every character basically be the same is not the way to go, you lose something when everything is homogenized.

As to your "evidence", don't kid yourself there is a still quite a bit of prejudice for people of gay/bi sexual orientations.  Things have improved but things have a long way to go for parity in the United States at least.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[Siansonea]

coolair74 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Just because she wasen't a choice does'nt change the fact that Jack is Bi.

coolair74 wrote...

No, no he doesnt.  Why would he just come out to you after 4 years of running around.  Shepard isnt gay, that is the foremost important fact.  For 2 games there hasnt been anything that he has done that would lead toward him being gay. He is a manly man and likes the girls. Done and done. Dont mess with Alex P Keation Shepard.

No, no she doesn't. Why would Tali just come out to you after 2 years of Shepard being dead. Shepard isn't a Quarian, that is the foremost important fact. For ME there hasen't been anything that he has done that would lean toweard him being into Tali or her into he. He's a manly man and showed no interest in Quarians in ME1. Done and done. Don't mess up Male Shepard.

Yet we ALL know what happened in ME2, don't we?

Apples and Oranges my friend. Tali is a girl and Shepard likes girls. So it wasnt a stretch to include this in ME2.
Thats like saying he never said he liked black girls. He likes all girls. He doesnt want buttsechs.

Again, Shepard ISNT gay. Done and done. You cant argue that.

You're right, your Shepard (did you actually name him As$hat Shepard, or is that just his personality?) isn't gay. Done and done. I can't argue that. But my Shepards aren't homophobic twits with poor reasoning skills. Well, not all of them anyway. I actually do have some Shepards that are stupid. The thing is though, no one person's idea of who Shepard is trumps every other one. I don't think you young kids understand that though, so I won't belabor the point, which has already been made a million times on these forums by persons much more erudite and eloquent than myself.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 22 mars 2011 - 04:56 .

[RenownedRyan]

Nyoka wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...
I've put in the bold the ones I agree with entirely!  This is a fantastic thread.  I have nothing against Gay people.  I believe that they should have full rights everywhere.

Except apparently in mass effect and dragon age. No, those games shouldn't be experienced equally by everyone.

But it makes it awkward for me as a straight guy when one of my party members in Dragon Age hits on me.

But you think gay men being hit by female characters and gay women being hit by male characters is just fine. I hope you see the problem here.

I believe that gay people are fully capable of helathy, safe relationships, but it is just too difficult to party someone of the same sex who is openly trying to bed your character. 

Heterosexual people are capable of relationships, is just too difficult to party someone of a different orientation who is openly trying to bed your character.

The problem there is that, at the end of the day, I didn't romance anyone in ME2.  I romanced Liara in ME1.  My other files have had no romance.  I enjoy the game just as well with no romances.  I dispute the argument that without video game romances people are somehow slighted or they cannot appreciate or enjoy the experience.

[Elite Midget]

One of my Shepard is Gay. Are you telling me how to play Mass Effect which is a game about Choices? Please... Try harder.

Kelly is Bi and sleeps with any races as well and makes a mention of it. She may not be a LI but at least a FemShepard has the CHOICE of sleeping with a woman yet Male Shepard has no choice.

Maybe your Shepard isn't Gay but I bet you that isn't the case for someone else's Shepard.

He isn't Correct. You play as a Male or Female Shepard. Their Sexual Orientation should be up to the players in a game that's about CHOICES.

Thus what that obviously straight man meant was that HIS Shepard was Male and Straight.

[ReiSilver]

RenownedRyan wrote...

The problem there is that, at the end of the day, I didn't romance anyone in ME2.  I romanced Liara in ME1.  My other files have had no romance.  I enjoy the game just as well with no romances.  I dispute the argument that without video game romances people are somehow slighted or they cannot appreciate or enjoy the experience.

Then you're failing to realise you're being given options other people were denied.
Your experiance in chosing not to romance anyone and still having a good time in the game is not equal to the experiance of someone who would have liked to experiance a romance with a character but were not given the option.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Siansonea II wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Just because she wasen't a choice does'nt change the fact that Jack is Bi.

coolair74 wrote...

No, no he doesnt.  Why would he just come out to you after 4 years of running around.  Shepard isnt gay, that is the foremost important fact.  For 2 games there hasnt been anything that he has done that would lead toward him being gay. He is a manly man and likes the girls. Done and done. Dont mess with Alex P Keation Shepard.

No, no she doesn't. Why would Tali just come out to you after 2 years of Shepard being dead. Shepard isn't a Quarian, that is the foremost important fact. For ME there hasen't been anything that he has done that would lean toweard him being into Tali or her into he. He's a manly man and showed no interest in Quarians in ME1. Done and done. Don't mess up Male Shepard.

Yet we ALL know what happened in ME2, don't we?

Apples and Oranges my friend. Tali is a girl and Shepard likes girls. So it wasnt a stretch to include this in ME2.
Thats like saying he never said he liked black girls. He likes all girls. He doesnt want buttsechs.

Again, Shepard ISNT gay. Done and done. You cant argue that.

You're right, your Shepard (did you actually name him **** Shepard, or is that just his personality?) isn't gay. Done and done. I can't argue that. But my Shepards aren't homophobic twits with poor reasoning skills. Well, not all of them anyway. I actually do have some Shepards that are stupid. The thing is though, no one person's idea of who Shepard is trumps every other one. I don't think you young kids understand that though, so I won't belabor the point, which has already been made a million times on these forums by persons much more erudite and eloquent than myself.

So anyone who doesn't want the current LIs to be bi in ME3 is a homophobe?

[coolair74]

NanQuan wrote...

I don't understand the use of DA2 as an example of bisexual relationships. The characters aren't bisexual in DA2. Some characters change sexuality based on the player's profile. For example, If you play as male, Anders will be homosexual and if you play as female he will be heterosexual. Then the player has the OPTION to romance him. You however, are not forced to and he will not push the issue unless you pick to flirt with him. Hell, I flirted with him in DA2 just to keep my options open, but when I decided to say no thanks to Anders, he never pressed the issue again. There was just no longer any romantic tension. And I thought that worked just fine. The closest I ever got to unwanted advances in DA2 was from Isabella, even though I never chose to flirt with her, but come on - it's isabella. That's to be expected.

I also disagree that DA2 had cheaper romances than ME2. In my opinion, the only relationship between BOTH games that offers any real closure is Liara's and she is bisexual. I'm not saying the romances are bad, and there is variety so that people will be pleased, but I see no real difference between DA2 and ME1&2 romances with the exception of Liara (and only Liara if we count LotSB; without that it is the same as the others). And that's really only because her's is the most fleshed out and it doesn't hurt that it has the most content thus far.

My point is, that you shouldn't really be afraid of bisexual love interests in ME3 because if they are like DA2 (like you said) then they won't be bisexual. They'll change sexuality depending on your shep's gender. And if it's done like DA2, then they won't make advances at you unless you also make advances at them. So there won't be a problem because if you don't want Garrus or whoever to be homosexual, then he won't be because you won't flirt with him.

Liara is not bi, she is anything sexual.  She really isnt a she, more of a she/he that looks like a she but can be a he ,at least biologically, if the situation calls for it.

But you can use whatever logic you want.  Anders wasnt gay before and now he is all the sudden?  His Bio in Awakining said , he only wants a warm fire, a pretty girl and something to shoot lightning at. That is what we dont want for ME3.

HEAR ME BIOWARE!

[RenownedRyan]

Nyoka wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
1) I'm saying that he would be too much like Zevran.

2) It's too late because it is TWO games in. Making everyone bi now would just be awkward and won't look right. And for the reasons I said in my original post.

Who's Zevran? What does he have to do with Mass Effect?

Again, it's not about being bisexual. It's about being attracted to Shepard, depending of your profile. That is, they wouldn't be bisexual, but heterosexual or gay depending of what Shepard is in each different profile. This does not takes away anything in the characters because they are not defined by their orientation, but by their personality and background.

By the way, why do you think everyone is heterosexual? Just because they didn't openly try to romance your character? "This man doesn't seem to be interested in me. Therefore he can't possibly be gay or bisexual, because if he were, he would totally be drooling all over me!" I hope you see what you are implying here.

Characters didn't explicitly reject same sex relationships, so they are not being contradictory if they are open to the possibility in ME3.

I still think that the best possible solution would be to determine Shepard's sexuality at the character creation screen.  This way Shepard can avoid unwanted advances and receive wanted ones. 

In fact, this method would be more realistic.  At Shepard's age (mid 30's) it is entirely likely that he has already come to the realization that he is either gay or straight.  True, these can change at any time, but the vast majority of people have already decided earlier in life.

[Siansonea]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
*snip*

*snip*

Calling me a homophobe because I don't want characters being changed this late in the game? REALLY? <_<

Attacking the Tali fanbase, too?

Your point is invalid.

What is invalid is dismissing someone's point simply because you disagree with it. I can't speak for MJ, but I have actually addressed your points in your original post, and what it boils down to for me is that you have a subjective bias against bisexual characters, period. You fail to see the very blatant parallel between the all-new Tali romance in ME2 and expanding existing characters to include same-sex interest in Shepard in ME3. You seem to think that being gay or bisexual so completely alters the personality that these characters simply couldn't be the same people you think you already know. Well, hopefully when you get older you'll realize that in the real world, it's not that cut-and-dried, and that sometimes it's your own understanding that needs to be expanded. You think we don't understand where you're coming from, but the truth is we understand perfectly. And therein lies the problem, you appear to simply want people to agree with you, the Am I Right, Bro phenomenon. Thing is, don't create a topic to discuss an issue if you don't actually wish to reevaluate your thoughts on the subject, it is an exercise in futility for everyone involved.