1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

And doing this to certain characters wouldn't be character development either. If say Miranda's obsession with her fertility is dropped my some conversation, would she not possibly open up towards FemShep?

I don't think so, Miranda is assumed to only be interested in men, and Bioware seems to make these kinds of assumptions correct.

[adneate]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Actually in Tali's case it's pretty much the definition of Retroactive Continuity. She expressed no interest in Shepard romantically in the first game a no one mention anything about her rather blatant crush on the Commander. Yet in ME2 it appears she always had this crush and everyone noticed it because Shepard is all she talks about. It's not a sudden development it's now a constant that apparently existed in the first game as well despite there being no evidence from the earlier work to back up the claims of the sequel.

It's textbook retcon, doesn't get much more black and white than that.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Actually in Tali's case it's pretty much the definition of Retroactive Continuity. She expressed no interest in Shepard romantically in the first game a no one mention anything about her rather blatant crush on the Commander. Yet in ME2 it appears she always had this crush and everyone noticed it because Shepard is all she talks about. It's not a sudden development it's now a constant that apparently existed in the first game as well despite there being no evidence from the earlier work to back up the claims of the sequel.

It's textbook retcon, doesn't get much more black and white than that.

It made Tali (and Garrus) a better character.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

But earlier you were saying Tali was a codex entry in ME1 and then made a romance in ME2.  How is that character development but if done with Kaidan or Ash in ME3, it's not?

Does being bi make Kaidan or Ashely better? No (It doesn't make them worse, it just ruins their believability, if you ask me). Did the change in Tali and Garrus in ME2 make them better (and more popular than they were in ME1) characters? Yes.

[Ryzaki]

Making her a better character (in your opinion) doesn't make it any less of a retcon.

[Quole]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Actually in Tali's case it's pretty much the definition of Retroactive Continuity. She expressed no interest in Shepard romantically in the first game a no one mention anything about her rather blatant crush on the Commander. Yet in ME2 it appears she always had this crush and everyone noticed it because Shepard is all she talks about. It's not a sudden development it's now a constant that apparently existed in the first game as well despite there being no evidence from the earlier work to back up the claims of the sequel.

It's textbook retcon, doesn't get much more black and white than that.

Uhh no it isnt. Someone liking someone and not showing it isnt very hard to do, and probably very common. Perhaps it simply took 2 years and Shepards death, for Tali to ahve the courage to say something to him?

The definition of  retcon would be something like: Garrus becoming a human.

[nevar00]

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Actually in Tali's case it's pretty much the definition of Retroactive Continuity. She expressed no interest in Shepard romantically in the first game a no one mention anything about her rather blatant crush on the Commander. Yet in ME2 it appears she always had this crush and everyone noticed it because Shepard is all she talks about. It's not a sudden development it's now a constant that apparently existed in the first game as well despite there being no evidence from the earlier work to back up the claims of the sequel.

It's textbook retcon, doesn't get much more black and white than that.

I'm just going to quote something I posted earlier regarding that issue:

"I disagree that Tali suddenly having a crush on Shepard in ME 2 is a
retcon. Just because she was reserved about it doesn't mean she didn't
have feelings for your Shep. And hey, maybe I'm bad at reading people
but during my first playthrough of ME 1 I spent the whole time assuming
Tali could be my romance option... obviously that didn't work out lol.
My point being that it wasn't too far-fetched to believe that Tali had a
crush on Shepard and kept quiet about it."

Although I generally agree with you (I think?), I wouldn't say Tali suddenly always having a crush on you was a retcon at all.  And the only person who picks up on it, Kelley, is supposed to be great at reading people... and aliens apparently.  And if they can pull off bi relationships as well as that, then that's fine with me.  I just would rather have the trigger options very obvious: not because I'm against gay relationships, but because I'd rather avoid having 10 people on the ship suddenly chasing my Shep around, male and female, as if he's the Beatles.  

Modifié par nevar00, 24 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Making her a better character (in your opinion) doesn't make it any less of a retcon.

To you, maybe. It's a matter of perception. Also, wasn't kind of obvious (not to sound rude) that I was stating MY opinion? This whole thread is full of everyone's opinions, I don't think we have to keep stating this.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Making her a better character (in your opinion) doesn't make it any less of a retcon.

except its not a retcon.

[nevar00]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

But earlier you were saying Tali was a codex entry in ME1 and then made a romance in ME2.  How is that character development but if done with Kaidan or Ash in ME3, it's not?

Does being bi make Kaidan or Ashely better? No (It doesn't make them worse, it just ruins their believability, if you ask me). Did the change in Tali and Garrus in ME2 make them better (and more popular than they were in ME1) characters? Yes.

But how do you assume that?  Bioware could do a great job pulling them off as bis... hell Kaidan I always thought seemed like he could go both ways, and Ashley could have an interesting conflict between her feelings for FemShep and her religion.  Of course, they could also do a terrible job by making older LIs bi... but why assume the worst when you think (and I do as well) they did a great job expanding Tali's and Garrus's characters?

[adneate]

Quole wrote...
The definition of  retcon would be something like: Garrus becoming a human.

That would be pulling stuff out of your ass. Retcon is a bit more subtle than that, but good try.

The Talimance is a retcon.

[Quole]

adneate wrote...

Quole wrote...
The definition of  retcon would be something like: Garrus becoming a human.

That would be pulling stuff out of your ass. Retcon is a bit more subtle than that, but good try.

The Talimance is a retcon.

Way to disregard everything else I said. No it isnt a retcon, but good try.

EDIT: And since when does  a retcon have to be subtle? You said the DEFINITION of a retcon. I assumed the DEFINITION of a retcon wouldnt be very subtle, or maybe it would but he point is it dosnt HAVE to be subtle.

Modifié par Quole, 24 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

And doing this to certain characters wouldn't be character development either. If say Miranda's obsession with her fertility is dropped my some conversation, would she not possibly open up towards FemShep?

I don't think so, Miranda is assumed to only be interested in men, and Bioware seems to make these kinds of assumptions correct.

I don't know. I'm no psychology expert, but I've seen women in their early-to-mid thirties without children. They become worried about having children, and get a little more promiscuous with men. In fact thats just textbook psych from my high school class.

[MisterDyslexo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Actually in Tali's case it's pretty much the definition of Retroactive Continuity. She expressed no interest in Shepard romantically in the first game a no one mention anything about her rather blatant crush on the Commander. Yet in ME2 it appears she always had this crush and everyone noticed it because Shepard is all she talks about. It's not a sudden development it's now a constant that apparently existed in the first game as well despite there being no evidence from the earlier work to back up the claims of the sequel.

It's textbook retcon, doesn't get much more black and white than that.

It made Tali (and Garrus) a better character.

So then, doesn't that mean retcon can be... good?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

nevar00 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

But earlier you were saying Tali was a codex entry in ME1 and then made a romance in ME2.  How is that character development but if done with Kaidan or Ash in ME3, it's not?

Does being bi make Kaidan or Ashely better? No (It doesn't make them worse, it just ruins their believability, if you ask me). Did the change in Tali and Garrus in ME2 make them better (and more popular than they were in ME1) characters? Yes.

But how do you assume that?  Bioware could do a great job pulling them off as bis... hell Kaidan I always thought seemed like he could go both ways, and Ashley could have an interesting conflict between her feelings for FemShep and her religion.  Of course, they could also do a terrible job by making older LIs bi... but why assume the worst when you think (and I do as well) they did a great job expanding Tali's and Garrus's characters?

Bioware isn't perfect, and after DA2, I'm worried that the romances might take a wrong turn.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

adneate wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Actually in Tali's case it's pretty much the definition of Retroactive Continuity. She expressed no interest in Shepard romantically in the first game a no one mention anything about her rather blatant crush on the Commander. Yet in ME2 it appears she always had this crush and everyone noticed it because Shepard is all she talks about. It's not a sudden development it's now a constant that apparently existed in the first game as well despite there being no evidence from the earlier work to back up the claims of the sequel.

It's textbook retcon, doesn't get much more black and white than that.

It made Tali (and Garrus) a better character.

So then, doesn't that mean retcon can be... good?

It ain't a retcon.

[adneate]

Quole wrote...
Way to disregard everything else I said. No it isnt a retcon, but good try.

EDIT: And since when does  a retcon have to be subtle?

What's that? Talimance is a retcon? I agree Quole it is a retcon.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Just make Zaeed and Kasumi homosexual LIs in ME3.  That'll take care of it.

Because they are DLCs, I don't think they will be LIs (unfortunately, mostly Kasumi for me, though)

[nevar00]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

But earlier you were saying Tali was a codex entry in ME1 and then made a romance in ME2.  How is that character development but if done with Kaidan or Ash in ME3, it's not?

Does being bi make Kaidan or Ashely better? No (It doesn't make them worse, it just ruins their believability, if you ask me). Did the change in Tali and Garrus in ME2 make them better (and more popular than they were in ME1) characters? Yes.

But how do you assume that?  Bioware could do a great job pulling them off as bis... hell Kaidan I always thought seemed like he could go both ways, and Ashley could have an interesting conflict between her feelings for FemShep and her religion.  Of course, they could also do a terrible job by making older LIs bi... but why assume the worst when you think (and I do as well) they did a great job expanding Tali's and Garrus's characters?

Bioware isn't perfect, and after DA2, I'm worried that the romances might take a wrong turn.

Oh well I haven't played DA so I can't comment on that, but I'll take your word for it.  Hopefully they learn their mistakes for whatever they decide to go with in ME 3 and get everything perfect.

[Quole]

adneate wrote...

Quole wrote...
Way to disregard everything else I said. No it isnt a retcon, but good try.

EDIT: And since when does  a retcon have to be subtle?

What's that? Talimance is a retcon? I agree Quole it is a retcon.

...are you really going to be immature like that? The point of this forum is for discussion and you havent brought up any counter arguments.