1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

So...what I'm getting is it's perfectly okay for Tali who never shown any interest in humans before to become interested in a male Shepard.

...But Kaidan/Ash doing that for same gendered Shepard isn't?

[MisterDyslexo]

Quole wrote...
It dosnt matter if she was PLANNED to be  LI or not. The point is, its not a retcon because it makes complete sense (her simply not showing her feelings for shepard in ME1), and it dosnt CHANGE anything storywise, therefore its NOT a retcon.

Aside from the massive facepalm, because retcon is a major change in something from one installment in the series to another (which is exactly what happened with Tali, she wasn't ****able in ME1, she was in ME2. Thats the whole point of this debate), you'd be okay with doing the same to any character that could legitimately come out as bisexual in Mass Effect 3 then? Because it won't change the story, since romances in Mass Effect have no impact so far, and they could've been just hiding their feelings. I mean I can think up a whole bunch of legitimate reasons as to why it makes sense:
-Jack: Well, we all know Jack.
-Miranda: You talk to her a few times about her obsession with her baby-maker, she gets over it
-Kaidan: He feels emasculation about his homosexual feelings towards MaleShep because of BAaT. Besides the fact that ******=effeminate in boot camp (which is what BAaT was), he was unable to protect Rhana, thus further wounding his pride. He regrets not coming forward towards her about his feelings, and it follows him through life. He is also unable to protect Shepard when Shep dies at the beginning of ME2. He regrets not confessing feelings up to Shepard, and upon seeing Shepard alive again, wants to take full advantage of a lost oppurtuinity.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

So...what I'm getting is it's perfectly okay for Tali who never shown any interest in humans before to become interested in a male Shepard.

...But Kaidan/Ash doing that for same gendered Shepard isn't?

Im not arguing for or against that.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Making her a better character (in your opinion) doesn't make it any less of a retcon.

except its not a retcon.

Oh? So please point out her obvious crush in Me1. 

Please. I'll wait. 

Maybe you havent been reading my other argument. Tali even says in ME2, that she never hinted at a crush in ME1 because she was afraid shepard wouldnt feel the same way. Besides you can like someone and not show it, its actually pretty common.

I'm sorry but that's bull. 

When people say "Everyone but you can see it." that means it's pretty damn obvious. Liara even says "I knew she had feelings for you." 

Where are these "feelings?" I don't see even the slightest hint. No giggling no blushing, no one else mentions it. 

It's never even mentioned in the least bit until ME1. Its a retcon. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Buggirl70 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Simple.

Retcons fix EVERYTHING... Unless you're a hardcore fan and you notice said Retcons. In that case they ruin EVERYTHING!

 
I never knew what this word was until people started throwing it about in relation to LI’s in the game.
 
My initial two playthroughs of ME had no romance what so ever, I didn’t go back and playthrough ME1 again till after I played and did all the ME2 romances. Does that mean that by going back and replaying and having a romance with all the characters in ME1 I’m retconning my playthroughs of ME2?
 
I’m confused, here I was thinking I was having fun, chopping and changing things to see how it would all play out.  
 
I’ve been sitting on this thread for about a day trying not to get more and more angry at everyone. On one hand I can understand the plea for better characters – gay, bi and straight – but in the light of what they have provided – what is the frigging issue with allowing a s/s choice in the game? Why are people getting so worked up about it?
 
LBGT community suffers enough prejudice in the real world – why aren’t they allowed to have a choice in a video game? Because it affects your reality? What really? What, is just knowing someone is having a s/s romance is wrecking your game play because you don’t see the character that way or you feel it’s been ‘retconned’ in some way?
 
(By the way I’m a Talimancer, Garrusmancer, Mirandamancer, you know, the ones people love to hate on.)
 

MisterDyslexo wrote...
I don't know. I'm no psychology expert, but I've seen women in their early-to-mid thirties without children. They become worried about having children, and get a little more promiscuous with men. In fact thats just textbook psych from my high school class.

WOW, that’s a doozy of a statement there. Can I say this : No you aren’t a psychology expert. 
 
Way to insult me and every other woman who’s worried/concerned about their fertility.

I'm not against s/s romances (I have stated this in the thread), I'm just against changing sexualities this late in the game.

[Quole]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Quole wrote...
It dosnt matter if she was PLANNED to be  LI or not. The point is, its not a retcon because it makes complete sense (her simply not showing her feelings for shepard in ME1), and it dosnt CHANGE anything storywise, therefore its NOT a retcon.

Aside from the massive facepalm, because retcon is a major change in something from one installment in the series to another (which is exactly what happened with Tali, she wasn't ****able in ME1, she was in ME2. Thats the whole point of this debate), you'd be okay with doing the same to any character that could legitimately come out as bisexual in Mass Effect 3 then? Because it won't change the story, since romances in Mass Effect have no impact so far, and they could've been just hiding their feelings. I mean I can think up a whole bunch of legitimate reasons as to why it makes sense:
-Jack: Well, we all know Jack.
-Miranda: You talk to her a few times about her obsession with her baby-maker, she gets over it
-Kaidan: He feels emasculation about his homosexual feelings towards MaleShep because of BAaT. Besides the fact that ******=effeminate in boot camp (which is what BAaT was), he was unable to protect Rhana, thus further wounding his pride. He regrets not coming forward towards her about his feelings, and it follows him through life. He is also unable to protect Shepard when Shep dies at the beginning of ME2. He regrets not confessing feelings up to Shepard, and upon seeing Shepard alive again, wants to take full advantage of a lost oppurtuinity.

Ok perhaps theres some miscommunicating here.

1. Im not arguing for or against the idea of a character becoming bi in ME3

2. Tali never hinted ata a romance for a very valid rason in ME1, which she explains in ME2. Really all that happened was that she didnt say anything about a romance before and now shes explaining why. THATS IT. THATS NOT A RETCON.

[MisterDyslexo]

Quole wrote...

Maybe you havent been reading my other argument. Tali even says in ME2, that she never hinted at a crush in ME1 because she was afraid shepard wouldnt feel the same way. Besides you can like someone and not show it, its actually pretty common.

It doesn't matter what she said in MASS EFFECT 2! It matters what content was in Mass Effect 1! If the developers had any original intentions of making her an LI, they would've hinted at it. As in "hint". Hint doesn't mean Tali saying
"Oh Shepard I have feelings for you." It means doing things like oh say, making her turn around when you enter the room (like Kelly points out in Mass Effect 2). The fact its said in Mass Effect 2 makes it a retcon. Retroactive continuity. The universe doesn't stop, the developers can't go back in time to change Mass Effect 1. So they write in "Oh I had a crush on you" to explain it.

[Ryzaki]

Yes actually it is a retcon. She shows no hint to these feelings. That's not how good writing works.

[Pacifien]

I don't see how making preexisting LIs bisexual in ME3 cheapens any romance. If you romanced Miranda in ME2 as a male Shepard, how does knowing she is available as a female love interest in ME2 cheapen the romance you are having? The knowledge that someone else out there is playing as a female Shepard, getting it own with your treasured lady, is too much to bear? In that respect, shouldn't you be annoyed that every other person playing a male Shepard is also romancing the same character as you?

And if they wrote the romance in a similar vein as DA2, it could actually add to the unique flavor of a romance. Romancing Anders as a male Hawke is distinctly different from that of a female Hawke, but I suspect many people would not realize this because, being adverse to playing a homosexual relationship in the first place, they failed to play out the romance with both genders, thus never saw the differences.

I don't buy the "suddenly" bisexual argument either. For instance, perhaps Kaidan is written as a bisexual/homosexual man who, knowing how uncomfortable a romantic advance would be to a insecure heterosexual male, actually withholds his feelings for years until a male Shepard gives him a sign. And if ME3 picks up some queues from DA2, that sign would be a big freakin' gigantic "don't pick me unless you mean it" heart symbol next to the dialogue choice.

Perhaps the real issue is the feared accidental relationship path which many people fell into whether they wanted to or not in the first two games. I honestly did not want a relationship with anyone in ME1, but do you know how hard it is to avoid it without coming across as a dick? Apparently, I fear being a dick more than leading someone on, so relationships it was. So I can see a guy totally wigged out at the idea that their dialogue choice will lead to unwanted man loving, which could very well be the reason why male homosexual relationships were not depicted in the game before. So yes, now DA2 has established the "seriously, don't pick this dialogue option unless you mean it" symbol, where if you get wigged out by what happens, it's your fault. So are you saying you'd rather the option not be there simply because its very existence annoys you even if no one obligates you to follow through with it?

Consider the fact that people love Garrus. I've seen love interests polls done by demographic where Garrus is by far the top male love interest as chosen by men. Some guy out there would totally dig his male Shepard getting it on with Garrus, but the option is denied him because either someone at BioWare really doesn't like the idea of their default male Shepard being gay or because they're scared to take the leap to allow for it. But say that changes for ME3, but you say Garrus wasn't written as homosexual in the first two games, so that's a no-go. Well, he wasn't written as a love interest at all in the first game. The fact you could romance him as a female in the second game but couldn't as a male? Means they simply write the romances differently if they allow for the male option in the third game. No wait, that wouldn't be unique, apparently.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Making her a better character (in your opinion) doesn't make it any less of a retcon.

except its not a retcon.

Oh? So please point out her obvious crush in Me1. 

Please. I'll wait. 

Maybe you havent been reading my other argument. Tali even says in ME2, that she never hinted at a crush in ME1 because she was afraid shepard wouldnt feel the same way. Besides you can like someone and not show it, its actually pretty common.

I'm sorry but that's bull. 

When people say "Everyone but you can see it." that means it's pretty damn obvious. Liara even says "I knew she had feelings for you." 

Where are these "feelings?" I don't see even the slightest hint. No giggling no blushing, no one else mentions it. 

It's never even mentioned in the least bit until ME1. Its a retcon. 

Again, she explains WHY she dosnt say anything in the first game, and besides (for 5th freakin time), you can like someone and not show it.
Also shepard says ``You could have mentioned that at the time`` to Liara once she says that, implying that he didnt know, therefore, the player didnt know.

[Almostfaceman]

Buggirl70 wrote...
 
LBGT community suffers enough prejudice in the real world – why aren’t they allowed to have a choice in a video game? Because it affects your reality? What really? What, is just knowing someone is having a s/s romance is wrecking your game play because you don’t see the character that way or you feel it’s been ‘retconned’ in some way?
 

Awww, c'mon now let's not make how some people may perceive Garrus, Tali, Ashley, or Kaiden as a personal affront towards gay or bi people.  It's just a difference of opinion.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So...what I'm getting is it's perfectly okay for Tali who never shown any interest in humans before to become interested in a male Shepard.

...But Kaidan/Ash doing that for same gendered Shepard isn't?

Yes, that's what I've been saying but apparently stating that is trolling and I need to gtfo out of this thread.

You were using insults, which isn't needed.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...
Again, she explains WHY she dosnt say anything in the first game, and besides (for 5th freakin time), you can like someone and not show it.
Also shepard says ``You could have mentioned that at the time`` to Liara once she says that, implying that he didnt know, therefore, the player didnt know.

Once again it does not matter what she did in Mass Effect 2. 

If she gave no hints to it in ME1. It's a retcon. 

Everyone says it was obvious. It wasn't. 

Retcon. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[Quole]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Quole wrote...

Maybe you havent been reading my other argument. Tali even says in ME2, that she never hinted at a crush in ME1 because she was afraid shepard wouldnt feel the same way. Besides you can like someone and not show it, its actually pretty common.

It doesn't matter what she said in MASS EFFECT 2! It matters what content was in Mass Effect 1! If the developers had any original intentions of making her an LI, they would've hinted at it. As in "hint". Hint doesn't mean Tali saying
"Oh Shepard I have feelings for you." It means doing things like oh say, making her turn around when you enter the room (like Kelly points out in Mass Effect 2). The fact its said in Mass Effect 2 makes it a retcon. Retroactive continuity. The universe doesn't stop, the developers can't go back in time to change Mass Effect 1. So they write in "Oh I had a crush on you" to explain it.

The point is SHE DIDNT WANT TO HINT AT IT. If she did then what she said in ME2 would make no sense.

[Julie the bogan]

I still don’t see how adding new choices for established characters would cheapen the romance, maybe I have just been thinking about it too hard.

Edit: Pacifien said it better then I could

Modifié par Julie Shepard, 24 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Let me explain retcon. Its when a writer wants to change something about something in the universe of their story, whether it be how technology works, or how a character feels about something. Its not believeable when a character has a dynamic shift in personality for no reason (aka crushing for Commander Shepard). It means they have to say "Oh well 'x' and 'y' happened back then".
Thats how all  retcon works. All of it. Read 1984 for god's sake.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
Again, she explains WHY she dosnt say anything in the first game, and besides (for 5th freakin time), you can like someone and not show it.
Also shepard says ``You could have mentioned that at the time`` to Liara once she says that, implying that he didnt know, therefore, the player didnt know.

Once again it does not matter what she did in Mass Effect 2. 

If she gave no hints to it in ME1. It's a retcon. 

Everyone says it was obvious. It wasn't. 

Retcon. 

The point is, there dosnt need to be a hint. And she explains why.

[Ryzaki]

rynluna wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So...what I'm getting is it's perfectly okay for Tali who never shown any interest in humans before to become interested in a male Shepard.

...But Kaidan/Ash doing that for same gendered Shepard isn't?

Yes, that's what I've been saying but apparently stating that is trolling and I need to gtfo out of this thread.

*Facepalms*

Good lord. 

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...
The point is, there dosnt need to be a hint. And she explains why.

Once again yes there does. No one gives absolutely no hint to everyone every about having a crush. Yet somehow multiple people knows she has had a crush on you forever. Does not work. 

It's a retcon. 

[MisterDyslexo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So...what I'm getting is it's perfectly okay for Tali who never shown any interest in humans before to become interested in a male Shepard.

...But Kaidan/Ash doing that for same gendered Shepard isn't?

Yes, that's what I've been saying but apparently stating that is trolling and I need to gtfo out of this thread.

You were using insults, which isn't needed.

So saying "You are wrong" is now an insult?

Oh, somebody raised in the modern day american educational system! Right? Ten bucks.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm not against s/s romances (I have stated this in the thread), I'm just against changing sexualities this late in the game.

The only character who actually nixes the idea of same sex relationships is the one character you actually said such a relationship would have made sense. Just because I couldn't romance Miranda as a female Shepard versus a male Shepard doesn't mean Miranda cannot be open to the idea. It means if they did allow for a same sex romance with her in the third game, it would lead to a distinctly different experience for how the two relationships develop. One is a continuation of a romance, one is a romance just beginning.

The reason why people bring up Tali is because what you have is a situation where a character who seemingly had no interest suddenly makes her interest known. The same could be done with Miranda. You could cry foul because your male Shepard got to start the romance in ME2, so it somehow offends you that someone is starting the romance in ME3 with a female Shepard. It's a silly reason to call foul on, though. If you're not bothered by how people claim the Tali romance is a retcon because it plays well for your character, then you should not be bothered that someone is taking a Tali romance in an entirely different direction with a homosexual relationship in ME3. It's how they wish to play the game, and you are not obligated to follow suit simply because the option exists.

[Ryzaki]

MisterDyslexo wrote...


So saying "You are wrong" is now an insult?

Oh, somebody raised in the modern day american educational system! Right? Ten bucks.

That was completely unnecessary.

Seriously thanks for the insult.