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[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
The point is, there dosnt need to be a hint. And she explains why.

Once again yes there does. No one gives absolutely no hint to everyone every about having a crush. Yet somehow multiple people knows she has had a crush on you forever. Does not work. 

It's a retcon. 

Ummm what? How so? Its ENTIRELY possible. Also, the only person that mentioned it from ME1 is Liara, which has a number of explainations; maybe Liara talked to Tali a lot, maybe shes better at reading people than shepard, or maybe shepard is an idiot.

[James2912]

Well actually maybe its a possibility its like dumbledore if you look at it a certain way you can see him being gay..

Modifié par James2912, 24 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[jeweledleah]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Quole wrote...
It dosnt matter if she was PLANNED to be  LI or not. The point is, its not a retcon because it makes complete sense (her simply not showing her feelings for shepard in ME1), and it dosnt CHANGE anything storywise, therefore its NOT a retcon.

Kaidan: He feels emasculation about his homosexual feelings towards MaleShep because of BAaT. Besides the fact that ******=effeminate in boot camp (which is what BAaT was), he was unable to protect Rhana, thus further wounding his pride. He regrets not coming forward towards her about his feelings, and it follows him through life. He is also unable to protect Shepard when Shep dies at the beginning of ME2. He regrets not confessing feelings up to Shepard, and upon seeing Shepard alive again, wants to take full advantage of a lost oppurtuinity.

Baat was a biotic camp, NOT marine boot camp. 
you are projecting current attitude towards masculinity and homosexuality to the world where female marines are not only common, but can also become elite soldiers and the first human spectres without losing their ability to be women.
Rana knew how he felt, they just never got to last base before the Virnus incident happened, after which she became afraid of him.
this only applies if this also applies to femshep who chose NOT to romance him in ME1 and they still need to adress the fact that he shows atraction to femshep but not maleshep.  unless we're going with magic wand and clumsy subjective retcons ala what's his face from Awakening (starting with retconing his death, regardless of your import and proceeding towards subjective sexuality (he's apparently perfectly straight as long as you play a female hawke) and different backgrounds depending on your gender and whether you proceed with same sex romance or decline it) .  which is most likely what will happen.  and I personaly don't like the sloppiness of it, its not character development IMO.  and yes, I care about it, becasue I have multiple shepards including those that didn't romance anyone, so I WILL see the difference and it WILL ruin my immersion.

P.S.  the only thing Tali shows in ME1 is that she's happy to see you when you come by and that she's sad when you leave (its in the tone of her voice).  and honestly - I think her romance would have been better if they didn't turn it into a long standing crush and if they didn't copy/paste friendship/romance dialogues.  Yet another reason why I don't think bioware can handle expanding existing LI's well

Modifié par jeweledleah, 24 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[MisterDyslexo]

You need solid, concrete evidence from Mass Effect 1, that Tali was planned on being a romance in Mass Effect 2, to say she is not a retcon.

I'll wait.

There is nothing whatsoever in Mass Effect 1 that hints at it. No camera angles, no single line of dialogue,, no chatter from other people. I know you're saying "Well she felt that way."
It doesn't matter how "she felt" at the time, according to Mass Effect 2. You need evidence that can be gathered from Mass Effect 1 that she was planned on being a romance.

"I had feelings for you Shepard" is said in Mass Effect 2. It is not viable evidence, period. She does nothing to portray these feelings, and nothing else in Mass Effect 1 hints at it. Talimance is a retcon.

[Pacifien]

Hey, let's not go on about who insulted who and who is trolling who. You know what you're supposed to do in those situations? Tell a mod. Via PM. And move on.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
The point is, there dosnt need to be a hint. And she explains why.

Once again yes there does. No one gives absolutely no hint to everyone every about having a crush. Yet somehow multiple people knows she has had a crush on you forever. Does not work. 

It's a retcon. 

Ummm what? How so? Its ENTIRELY possible. Also, the only person that mentioned it from ME1 is Liara, which has a number of explainations; maybe Liara talked to Tali a lot, maybe shes better at reading people than shepard, or maybe shepard is an idiot.

Of the the love of - 

It's a retcon. The player, Liara, and other people gave no hint at all. AT all. Tali herself gives no hint. Things don't exist in a vacuum. It's a retcon. It will always be a retcon. 

If her crush had developed in ME2 it would've been fine. Instead they wanted to pretend it had been there all along when there was no evidence to support it. Good writing does not work that way. 

[Almostfaceman]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

You need solid, concrete evidence from Mass Effect 1, that Tali was planned on being a romance in Mass Effect 2, to say she is not a retcon.

I'll wait.

There is nothing whatsoever in Mass Effect 1 that hints at it. No camera angles, no single line of dialogue,, no chatter from other people. I know you're saying "Well she felt that way."
It doesn't matter how "she felt" at the time, according to Mass Effect 2. You need evidence that can be gathered from Mass Effect 1 that she was planned on being a romance.

"I had feelings for you Shepard" is said in Mass Effect 2. It is not viable evidence, period. She does nothing to portray these feelings, and nothing else in Mass Effect 1 hints at it. Talimance is a retcon.

That's as silly as saying YOU need solid evidence that it wasn't planned from the beginning.  You can't make them prove anything and they can't make you prove anything.  And you're going to keep going back and forth on this all night.  It's been like watching tennis, lol.

[MisterDyslexo]

[Edit: Read this. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 24 mars 2011 - 04:49 .

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
The point is, there dosnt need to be a hint. And she explains why.

Once again yes there does. No one gives absolutely no hint to everyone every about having a crush. Yet somehow multiple people knows she has had a crush on you forever. Does not work. 

It's a retcon. 

Ummm what? How so? Its ENTIRELY possible. Also, the only person that mentioned it from ME1 is Liara, which has a number of explainations; maybe Liara talked to Tali a lot, maybe shes better at reading people than shepard, or maybe shepard is an idiot.

Of the the love of - 

It's a retcon. The player, Liara, and other people gave no hint at all. AT all. Tali herself gives no hint. Things don't exist in a vacuum. It's a retcon. It will always be a retcon. 

If her crush had developed in ME2 it would've been fine. Instead they wanted to pretend it had been there all along when there was no evidence to support it. Good writing does not work that way. 

Alright, I can see we`re going in circles here so Im done with this argument.

[James2912]

Which current LI's could people see actually being gay? I could see kaidan being gay definitely in fact I was disapointed he wasn't in ME1 he totally gave off the vibe. Plus he would have made an awesome gay character in that he's not a stereotypical gay person, he a tough kick your ass soldier but he also likes to be the little spoon to sheps big spoon.

[Almostfaceman]

James2912 wrote...

Which current LI's could people see actually being gay? I could see kaidan being gay definitely in fact I was disapointed he wasn't in ME1 he totally gave off the vibe. Plus he would have made an awesome gay character in that he's not a stereotypical gay person, he a tough kick your ass soldier but he also likes to be the little spoon to sheps big spoon.

It's kinda subjective that's why people are arguing about it,lol.

[Ryzaki]

If Liara who barely understands basic human interaction (at that point in time let's be honest Liara wasn't good at interaction with any species) can tell Tali has a crush and it's not obvious to everyone on ship? Retcon.

Sorry retcon. You may not like it but that's exactly what it was.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Also (to Pacifien), I'm not saying that making the existing LIs bi will cheapen the romances BECAUSE they are bi, I'm saying that it then seems to just be not, how do I say, not believable.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

If Liara who barely understands basic human interaction (at that point in time let's be honest Liara wasn't good at interaction with any species) can tell Tali has a crush and it's not obvious to everyone on ship? Retcon.

Sorry retcon. You may not like it but that's exactly what it was.

Alright, maybe you didnt understand the part where I said im done with this argument. So I`ll just leave by saying: No it wasnt.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

James2912 wrote...

Which current LI's could people see actually being gay? I could see kaidan being gay definitely in fact I was disapointed he wasn't in ME1 he totally gave off the vibe. Plus he would have made an awesome gay character in that he's not a stereotypical gay person, he a tough kick your ass soldier but he also likes to be the little spoon to sheps big spoon.

I view it as too late to add it, but I did want Kaidan to be bi in ME1.

[Bugsie]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Awww, c'mon now let's not make how some people may perceive Garrus, Tali, Ashley, or Kaiden as a personal affront towards gay or bi people.  It's just a difference of opinion.

That's not what I meant.  How any of those characters is percieved by others is up to the person playing the game, and no-one is likely to take affront at that - however when they get outraged and create threads (okay not this one in this instance) about how others percieve said character - that they're wrong for having that perception or that the developers are catering to a minority or some other bs then yes it is an affront - and people will take it as such. 

There are a number of people who've flatly stated that if Garrus were suddenly to become bi they would return the game (maybe not in this thread exactly -  all the hate threads I've read lately are making my simple hybrid brain confused)  I know of many others who feel very differently about that, but they say little for fear of being attacked for wanting such a choice.

And Pacifen - thankyou for stating so eloquently what my clumsy wording fails to get across.

Modifié par Buggirl70, 24 mars 2011 - 05:08 .

[Pacifien]

Quole wrote...
Alright, maybe you didnt understand the part where I said im done with this argument.

Just because you say you're done with the argument doesn't mean the other person is. If you're done, be done.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If Liara who barely understands basic human interaction (at that point in time let's be honest Liara wasn't good at interaction with any species) can tell Tali has a crush and it's not obvious to everyone on ship? Retcon.

Sorry retcon. You may not like it but that's exactly what it was.

Alright, maybe you didnt understand the part where I said im done with this argument. So I`ll just leave by saying: No it wasnt.

Yes actually it was. You can't just say someone who barely understand interaction somehow picks up on someone who hides the crush from everyone else. It just doesn't work. It makes no sense. 

Retcon. 

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also (to Pacifien), I'm not saying that making the existing LIs bi will cheapen the romances BECAUSE they are bi, I'm saying that it then seems to just be not, how do I say, not believable.

As these things go, others disagree. I even went at length for how it could be entirely doable and acceptable to me. So where does that leave this discussion?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If Liara who barely understands basic human interaction (at that point in time let's be honest Liara wasn't good at interaction with any species) can tell Tali has a crush and it's not obvious to everyone on ship? Retcon.

Sorry retcon. You may not like it but that's exactly what it was.

Alright, maybe you didnt understand the part where I said im done with this argument. So I`ll just leave by saying: No it wasnt.

Yes actually it was. You can't just say someone who barely understand interaction somehow picks up on someone who hides the crush from everyone else. It just doesn't work. It makes no sense. 

Retcon. 

You both may have to agree to disagree.

[James2912]

Does anybody remember the long cutscene that would happen everytime you tried to talk to kaidan as male shep? I mean kaidan was caressing your body with his eyes, in fact shep was just a big slab of meat to him. Yo!

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also (to Pacifien), I'm not saying that making the existing LIs bi will cheapen the romances BECAUSE they are bi, I'm saying that it then seems to just be not, how do I say, not believable.

As these things go, others disagree. I even went at length for how it could be entirely doable and acceptable to me. So where does that leave this discussion?

Yes, you did. To YOU. I do not find that believale or acceptable (not to be rude). If the LIs were bi from the beginning, I would not care (but they had to be romanceable for BOTH Shepards at the beginning, not just one through all three games, and then one just suddenly happens at the end).

[J. Finley]

I know guys who wouldn't date bisexual women in real life. I wouldn't care myself, but that's just what their preferences are. It doesn't have anything to do with morals or being homophobic, it's just a trait they're attracted to.

I know it doesn't even compare to a game, just pointing out that they might be effected if they found out that their girlfriend they've been dating for awhile is also attracted to other women.

( I don't really care either way if they add it or not. Variety FTW I guess? )

[Elite Midget]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Making them bi would be character develpment too.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Elite Midget wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Here's something I feel the need to say. Tali and Garrus were not retconned. That's called character development.

Making them bi would be character develpment too.

We just had a discussion about that. Please read the posts after that.