1677 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

I can see where you are coming from Ramirez Wolfen. If that is your real name then you are super bada22

[jeweledleah]

sigh. and I still have trouble getting my point across. either I'm really that bad at explaining it, or you are just refusing to see it.

you know, I have accepted that most people don't care about character consistency. I have accepted that I'm one of the few people incapable of imitating amnesia and play every character as an isolated case. I'm resigned to seeing characters come back as nothing more then shells, with familiar names who occasionally reference some prior events, just to remind you that they are not a new character but rather someone you've seen before they are just not acting the same way...sometimes.

he's not my Kaidan. his bioware's Kaidan. he's also a Kaidan whose old writer no longer works on his character development. I already know he's coming back as a different person. I'm not even hoping that he will be the same kind of different in different play throughs. I'm merely expressing what I think of this in vain hope that maybe just maybe, in some future game, the writers will you know figure out how they want the characters to be from start to finish, that they keep them consistent (they managed with Isabella, and heck even Alistair still manages to act in character) from sequel to sequel, from playthrough to playthrough.

[MisterDyslexo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

James2912 wrote...

How would Kaiden have to change as a character in order for you to accept him as gay? How would being gay make him different?

I really like all the characters. They've been my favorite characters for the past four years. How would being gay make them different? Here's how I see it (this is an example, not real):

I'm a straight male, and I have a friend of the same sex who I am very close to. As far as I and he have known, we are both straight. But one day, he announces that he has romantic feelings for me and he's been gay all along. Would this change things? For me, yes it would, because now (not because he's gay) it's a different relationship.

My brain is crying. Please explain to me that logic.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

James2912 wrote...

I can see where you are coming from Ramirez Wolfen. If that is your real name then you are super bada22

It is actuallyB) Thank you.

Also, the relationship isn't the same anymore because now my friend has something I can never give him. It doesn't make me homophobic (actually, this happened with a girl that I just didn't feel about that way). If you ask me, it then puts a strain on the relaionship and me and my friend will be more distant with each other.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

James2912 wrote...

How would Kaiden have to change as a character in order for you to accept him as gay? How would being gay make him different?

I really like all the characters. They've been my favorite characters for the past four years. How would being gay make them different? Here's how I see it (this is an example, not real):

I'm a straight male, and I have a friend of the same sex who I am very close to. As far as I and he have known, we are both straight. But one day, he announces that he has romantic feelings for me and he's been gay all along. Would this change things? For me, yes it would, because now (not because he's gay) it's a different relationship.

My brain is crying. Please explain to me that logic.

I'm saying that it would change the relationship, because it's no longer the same.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The problem is that you cannot please everyone. Stick with what is working, trying to please everyone never works and it will fall apart. You seem to be implying that I'm against others playing the game their way, which I'm not. I'm against last minute changes which in my opinion messes with consistency.

If you never bother with a same sex romance of a pre-existing character in ME3, then what does consistency matter to you?

I never cared to romance Tali in ME2. It can be a very well done romance, but I would never know. For all the talk on whether it was a retconned romance, it does not matter to me that it was included because it affects my gameplay not at all.

You assume making a pre-existing romance option available to both genders in the third game will be done poorly. You base this on DA2, where there is only one pre-existing character whose sexuality was altered from how he was originally written. Did you play the romance with Anders as both a male and female Hawke? Did you try the game without romancing him at all? Because I did all three, and I feel it was not done poorly. I know this the ME forum, but perhaps you need to describe why you felt it wasn't done well in order to help make your case why something similar should not be done for ME3.

As for the other three romances in DA2, one was a pre-existing character that people already knew was bisexual. The other two were essentially new characters with a blank slate on romance and they were given an option as being romanced by either gender. You claim you would be okay with a new love interest introduced in ME3 who was bisexual, but you're basing your entire argument here on your feelings about romance with DA2 and there is only one romanceable character in that game who meets the criteria of what you claim to be arguing here. So again, how was Anders done wrong that makes you so convinced that an ME2 character cannot be treated in the same manner?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Lets have Shepard's evil twin brother try to hijack the Normandy. You know, because they would be equally plausible as half the Normandy's crew suddenly turning Bisexual.

[MisterDyslexo]

[Edit: Removed facepalm picture. Don't do those on these forums. - Pacifien]

Goodbye cruel forum.

Modifié par Pacifien, 24 mars 2011 - 05:43 .

[Julie the bogan]

jeweledleah wrote...

sigh. and I still have trouble getting my point across. either I'm really that bad at explaining it, or you are just refusing to see it.

you know, I have accepted that most people don't care about character consistency. I have accepted that I'm one of the few people incapable of imitating amnesia and play every character as an isolated case. I'm resigned to seeing characters come back as nothing more then shells, with familiar names who occasionally reference some prior events, just to remind you that they are not a new character but rather someone you've seen before they are just not acting the same way...sometimes.

he's not my Kaidan. his bioware's Kaidan. he's also a Kaidan whose old writer no longer works on his character development. I already know he's coming back as a different person. I'm not even hoping that he will be the same kind of different in different play throughs. I'm merely expressing what I think of this in vain hope that maybe just maybe, in some future game, the writers will you know figure out how they want the characters to be from start to finish, that they keep them consistent (they managed with Isabella, and heck even Alistair still manages to act in character) from sequel to sequel, from playthrough to playthrough.

People change through out their life, why can't video game chars?

[J. Finley]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Jayman1337 wrote...

Personally, I'm going to take the first side. I was able to shut-out all
the Talimance stuff for a while, and then I saw all the "face" videos
on youtube so now I don't have to.

Do you mean to accept the other side in a humorous way or something? Funny vid btw.

You know, it does help a bit. I mean, its just a game. We're all just arguing more passionately over a technicality than the character itself at this point.

That actually does make me LOL. As long as they don't change the character's personality I guess it doesn't matter, since it wouldn't be hinted at if they're bisexual at all for straight sheps.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, the relationship isn't the same anymore because now my friend has something I can never give him. It doesn't make me homophobic (actually, this happened with a girl that I just didn't feel about that way). If you ask me, it then puts a strain on the relaionship and me and my friend will be more distant with each other.

Miranda is a romance option, but I didn't want to romance her. This put a strain in our relationship because, even though I didn't pursue the romance option with her, I just knew she was totally into my Shepard. But I couldn't return her feelings.

That would be my male Shepard playthrough, of course.

[Ryzaki]

Heck with all the LIs that are already available I'd be fine with 2 gay LIs one female, one male.

Less work for the devs since they only have to do one path.

Just a pipe dream though. Still if only.

[MisterDyslexo]

ReconTeam wrote...

Lets have Shepard's evil twin brother try to hijack the Normandy. You know, because they would be equally plausible as half the Normandy's crew suddenly turning Bisexual.

Curses. You found out TIM's plans.

Okay, now goodbye cruel forum.

[GuardianAngel470]

Wow wolfen, way to hit a home run... 55 pages in 1 day is quite something.

On topic, I agree that most current characters should remain hetero for much the same reason but I'll explain anyway.

Garrus: You get no indication that he may be bi at all in the first or second game. As such, a change of this sort would feel forced and would weaken an already slightly destabilized character (people already accuse him of being impressionable and incapable of having an opinion).

Miranda: Again, no indication of bisexuality despite the fact that she has probably seen a femshep nude quite a few times in varying degrees of composition (you know, missing a few pieces here or there).

Jacob: No indication and, lets be honest, who actually wanted that anyway?

Jack: She explicitly states she doesn't swing that way, as in she broaches that topic herself and TELLS you she wouldn't if you asked. Unlike every other character, there is no interpretation needed here.

Thane: Not likely and there is no indication of bisexuality. He had a wife and a child, both of whom he loved a lot. That doesn't close the door to bisexuality in and of itself, but it kinda puts a hamper on it IMO.

Tali: Probably the best case the Bi crowd has (other than Liara) in that her intro to the male romance is nearly identical for femsheps but it doesn't lead anywhere.

Kaidan: Possibly a BI LI, he strikes a manshep as slightly expressive of his feelings so in some people's eyes that might be construed as being an indication of bisexuality. So the opportunity exists.

Liara: What are you crying about? You have your cake, eat it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, the relationship isn't the same anymore because now my friend has something I can never give him. It doesn't make me homophobic (actually, this happened with a girl that I just didn't feel about that way). If you ask me, it then puts a strain on the relaionship and me and my friend will be more distant with each other.

Miranda is a romance option, but I didn't want to romance her. This put a strain in our relationship because, even though I didn't pursue the romance option with her, I just knew she was totally into my Shepard. But I couldn't return her feelings.

That would be my male Shepard playthrough, of course.

Sorry if I come off as stupid (I'm a little tired), but what do you mean?

[Ryzaki]

...why does bisexuality need to be justified but heterosexuality doesn't?

People can't just have preferences?

I don't ask someone to justify liking apple pie over banana.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 05:52 .

[jeweledleah]

Julie Shepard wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

sigh. and I still have trouble getting my point across. either I'm really that bad at explaining it, or you are just refusing to see it.

you know, I have accepted that most people don't care about character consistency. I have accepted that I'm one of the few people incapable of imitating amnesia and play every character as an isolated case. I'm resigned to seeing characters come back as nothing more then shells, with familiar names who occasionally reference some prior events, just to remind you that they are not a new character but rather someone you've seen before they are just not acting the same way...sometimes.

he's not my Kaidan. his bioware's Kaidan. he's also a Kaidan whose old writer no longer works on his character development. I already know he's coming back as a different person. I'm not even hoping that he will be the same kind of different in different play throughs. I'm merely expressing what I think of this in vain hope that maybe just maybe, in some future game, the writers will you know figure out how they want the characters to be from start to finish, that they keep them consistent (they managed with Isabella, and heck even Alistair still manages to act in character) from sequel to sequel, from playthrough to playthrough.

People change through out their life, why can't video game chars?

180 changes?  changes so big that you barely recognize those people anymore?  yes, yes they do and its usualy cause by something big (of course you can argue that Shepard's death was a big deal, but in that case why does the letter to romanced Shepard sounds like basicaly unchanged Kaidan/Ashley?)  and they change for everyone they know, not just for a select few.  I'm not a fan of Liara's change.  at all.  its worse if you play ME1 and ME2 back to back, like I did recently.  She goes from someone who concideres revenge undesirable after her own mother's death www.youtube.com/watch and yet few months later she turns into Jack and plots revenge for 2 years over a stranger who betrayed her?  and the thing is, they could have handled it so much better and still kept her bad ass.  they could have written that she was not seeking revenge but rather she was seeking to save a friend.  and/or trying to collect as much information asshe could to help Shepard.  but they messed it up.  they took a character and they didn't make her evolve - they changed her completely into a completely different character.  its like she got a brain trauma or something, except she didn't?

just as one example.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The problem is that you cannot please everyone. Stick with what is working, trying to please everyone never works and it will fall apart. You seem to be implying that I'm against others playing the game their way, which I'm not. I'm against last minute changes which in my opinion messes with consistency.

If you never bother with a same sex romance of a pre-existing character in ME3, then what does consistency matter to you?

I never cared to romance Tali in ME2. It can be a very well done romance, but I would never know. For all the talk on whether it was a retconned romance, it does not matter to me that it was included because it affects my gameplay not at all.

You assume making a pre-existing romance option available to both genders in the third game will be done poorly. You base this on DA2, where there is only one pre-existing character whose sexuality was altered from how he was originally written. Did you play the romance with Anders as both a male and female Hawke? Did you try the game without romancing him at all? Because I did all three, and I feel it was not done poorly. I know this the ME forum, but perhaps you need to describe why you felt it wasn't done well in order to help make your case why something similar should not be done for ME3.

As for the other three romances in DA2, one was a pre-existing character that people already knew was bisexual. The other two were essentially new characters with a blank slate on romance and they were given an option as being romanced by either gender. You claim you would be okay with a new love interest introduced in ME3 who was bisexual, but you're basing your entire argument here on your feelings about romance with DA2 and there is only one romanceable character in that game who meets the criteria of what you claim to be arguing here. So again, how was Anders done wrong that makes you so convinced that an ME2 character cannot be treated in the same manner?

I found the romances in DA2 to not be good really. Anders had a few ooc moments if you ask me ( unfortunately I can't recall because i'm a bit tired). Actually, I think somewhere in this thread someone has explained something like this (I'm not sure where though).

[casedawgz]

Maybe they could pull a Commander Riker. Remember that episode where he fell for the alien girl with malleable gender who ended up being an alien dude by the end? Ah, life before Riker/Troi.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

casedawgz wrote...

Maybe they could pull a Commander Riker. Remember that episode where he fell for the alien girl with malleable gender who ended up being an alien dude by the end? Ah, life before Riker/Troi.

I have never heard of Commander Riker. So basically it was a clownfish?

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Sorry if I come off as stupid (I'm a little tired), but what do you mean?

Based on how romance was done in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2, if you are interested in a romance with a particular character, you have to actively pursue the person. So if Kaidan was made a male love interest in Mass Effect 3, the only way you're going to know that he's interested is if you follow the dialogue options that clearly steer you in that direction. The point of giving you dialogue options is that you can choose not to follow ones that don't fit your character or take you on a path you don't wish to pursue.

If you don't pursue the romance, it simply doesn't exist, and yet you describe it as if it does. For instance, in the Thane romance, there is a definite point that starts the romance in the dialogue tree, and that's when you pick the option "I want you, Thane" in the dialogue wheel. If you don't pick the option, there is absolutely no romance. Thane doesn't come on to you. You don't come on to Thane. My female Shepare isn't awkwardly sitting across from Thane feeling that unresolved sexual tension.

Or, with my earlier scenario, my male Shepard has the option to romance Miranda. He doesn't. This does not mean that Miranda is lusting after Shepard because she can be a romance option.

So Kaidan being a possible love interest doesn't mean he will lust after your male Shepard. He likely only would if you actively chose to pursue the option. You've already made it clear that you wouldn't want to, so your scenario of strained relationships doesn't work.

[casedawgz]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Maybe they could pull a Commander Riker. Remember that episode where he fell for the alien girl with malleable gender who ended up being an alien dude by the end? Ah, life before Riker/Troi.

I have never heard of Commander Riker. So basically it was a clownfish?

You never watched Start Trek: The Next Generation? Get on that, you're missing out.

[Julie the bogan]

jeweledleah wrote...

Julie Shepard wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

sigh. and I still have trouble getting my point across. either I'm really that bad at explaining it, or you are just refusing to see it.

you know, I have accepted that most people don't care about character consistency. I have accepted that I'm one of the few people incapable of imitating amnesia and play every character as an isolated case. I'm resigned to seeing characters come back as nothing more then shells, with familiar names who occasionally reference some prior events, just to remind you that they are not a new character but rather someone you've seen before they are just not acting the same way...sometimes.

he's not my Kaidan. his bioware's Kaidan. he's also a Kaidan whose old writer no longer works on his character development. I already know he's coming back as a different person. I'm not even hoping that he will be the same kind of different in different play throughs. I'm merely expressing what I think of this in vain hope that maybe just maybe, in some future game, the writers will you know figure out how they want the characters to be from start to finish, that they keep them consistent (they managed with Isabella, and heck even Alistair still manages to act in character) from sequel to sequel, from playthrough to playthrough.

People change through out their life, why can't video game chars?

180 changes?  changes so big that you barely recognize those people anymore?  yes, yes they do and its usualy cause by something big (of course you can argue that Shepard's death was a big deal, but in that case why does the letter to romanced Shepard sounds like basicaly unchanged Kaidan/Ashley?)  and they change for everyone they know, not just for a select few.  I'm not a fan of Liara's change.  at all.  its worse if you play ME1 and ME2 back to back, like I did recently.  She goes from someone who concideres revenge undesirable after her own mother's death www.youtube.com/watch and yet few months later she turns into Jack and plots revenge for 2 years over a stranger who betrayed her?  and the thing is, they could have handled it so much better and still kept her bad ass.  they could have written that she was not seeking revenge but rather she was seeking to save a friend.  and/or trying to collect as much information asshe could to help Shepard.  but they messed it up.  they took a character and they didn't make her evolve - they changed her completely into a completely different character.  its like she got a brain trauma or something, except she didn't?

just as one example.

To use your example:

I used my own mind to fill in the blanks, dose Bioware have to spell everything out for us?
I like most people wanted the sandy beach slow run, but it didnt happen.
I'll stop there because this is a little OT
Feel free to send me a PM if you wish to discuss it further

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I found the romances in DA2 to not be good really. Anders had a few ooc moments if you ask me ( unfortunately I can't recall because i'm a bit tired). Actually, I think somewhere in this thread someone has explained something like this (I'm not sure where though).

You didn't like the DA2 romances, so you made a thread about how you do not want the pre-existing romance options of the Mass Effect series to be bisexual. This would lead me to believe that your problem with the DA2 romances was that they were available to both genders as opposed to, say, being generally poorly written no matter what gender you romance the character.

You claim you would have no problem if a new character were introduced who was a bisexual option in ME3, but if it was the DA2 romances that started to worry you, I do not see how you can be so specific to only the pre-existing romances being a problem as bisexual options. This is because only one DA2 romance comes close to fitting your criteria on why it shouldn't be done.

If your worry wasn't the fact that the DA2 options were available to both genders and was indeed just the general writing, perhaps you are unaware that the writing/development team for Dragon Age is completely different from the one in Mass Effect. They are.