1677 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

@ Pacifen. personal opinions on DA2 romances.
positives - they span over a longer period of time, the characters do not exist in their own little vaccums, but they interact and speak about each other and to each other. animations have certainly improved (though some of the sound effects are cheesy IMO) and there's definitely a certain degree of depth to them

negatives - copy pasted lines not only across genders but also across rivalry/friendship relationships. not all lines, but more then I liked (on the other hand, considering budget issues, I can see why it was done, but I'm still mentioning it as a negative, since it reduces re-playability). selective reveal of information, based on hawke's gender and not on questions asked. getting annoyed at being rejected even if you didn't have a relationship before you just talked like once or twice.

general character changes. changes were made to Anders to explain his very different behavior, but even early on, he shows barely any hints of what he used to be in Awakenings (oh wait, he mentions his cat, I suppose that should be enough right? right?)

I know why it was done. he's a much more popular character now. people love him or hate him, but I don't think anyone called him boring yet. but he's not Anders.

P.S. suggesting selective blindness is not a good reason for adding something in IMO without good plausible explanation. I don't know about you, but I'm not an ostrich, I cannot just pretend to be Allistair, close my ears and sing "lalalalala, I'm not listening!"

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Sorry if I come off as stupid (I'm a little tired), but what do you mean?

Based on how romance was done in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2, if you are interested in a romance with a particular character, you have to actively pursue the person. So if Kaidan was made a male love interest in Mass Effect 3, the only way you're going to know that he's interested is if you follow the dialogue options that clearly steer you in that direction. The point of giving you dialogue options is that you can choose not to follow ones that don't fit your character or take you on a path you don't wish to pursue.

If you don't pursue the romance, it simply doesn't exist, and yet you describe it as if it does. For instance, in the Thane romance, there is a definite point that starts the romance in the dialogue tree, and that's when you pick the option "I want you, Thane" in the dialogue wheel. If you don't pick the option, there is absolutely no romance. Thane doesn't come on to you. You don't come on to Thane. My female Shepare isn't awkwardly sitting across from Thane feeling that unresolved sexual tension.

Or, with my earlier scenario, my male Shepard has the option to romance Miranda. He doesn't. This does not mean that Miranda is lusting after Shepard because she can be a romance option.

So Kaidan being a possible love interest doesn't mean he will lust after your male Shepard. He likely only would if you actively chose to pursue the option. You've already made it clear that you wouldn't want to, so your scenario of strained relationships doesn't work.

I think you are going by if Shepard is the one to start the romance. That's not exactly what I'm talking about.

If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

Kaidan being a possible LI for male Shepard in ME3 I think will probably mean that Kaidan is the one to start the romance. And that's where my scenario comes in. Also, looking back at ME1 and ME2, I really don't see a "friends" path. Actually, I don't see it in any Bioware game at all. That's another reason why I'm against changing them. I don't want to ruin the relationship just because I didn't accept someone's advances.

Side note: I enjoy talking with someone who isn't going to insult me every other post (not everyone has done this, but a few PERSISTENT ones have).

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I found the romances in DA2 to not be good really. Anders had a few ooc moments if you ask me ( unfortunately I can't recall because i'm a bit tired). Actually, I think somewhere in this thread someone has explained something like this (I'm not sure where though).

You didn't like the DA2 romances, so you made a thread about how you do not want the pre-existing romance options of the Mass Effect series to be bisexual. This would lead me to believe that your problem with the DA2 romances was that they were available to both genders as opposed to, say, being generally poorly written no matter what gender you romance the character.

You claim you would have no problem if a new character were introduced who was a bisexual option in ME3, but if it was the DA2 romances that started to worry you, I do not see how you can be so specific to only the pre-existing romances being a problem as bisexual options. This is because only one DA2 romance comes close to fitting your criteria on why it shouldn't be done.

If your worry wasn't the fact that the DA2 options were available to both genders and was indeed just the general writing, perhaps you are unaware that the writing/development team for Dragon Age is completely different from the one in Mass Effect. They are.

Sometimes teams take ideas from others and implement them in their own.

EDIT: There a few games that support what I'm saying.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 24 mars 2011 - 06:26 .

[Pacifien]

I was trying (not very hard) to avoid focusing so much on Anders because this is the ME2 forums, but I did have problems with the general feel of his personality from Awakening to Dragon Age 2. But those issues go beyond his romance, and so he doesn't come across as a good example to me of why a pre-existing character cannot show homosexual feelings when there was little indication of it otherwise before. Flirtations with a female Warden existed, but romance was never in the cards for those two characters. He was written with romance in mind for DA2, however. The fact that he admits to being attracted to men with a male Hawke (if you choose to flirt with him, mind you) is simply an admission of past history that does not contradict what we know of him from Awakening because the subject never came up.

The same reasoning can be used with Tali's character in ME2. Her admission of having a crush on male Shepard doesn't contradict what we know of her from ME1. At least, that is how one can interpret it. Some can say that simply isn't enough, that we needed to see some indication of her crush in ME1 in order to make it believable when she admits to it in ME2.

And so we come to why people simply won't accept a character like Kaidan suddenly being an option as a male love interest in ME3, because now you've gone two games without any indication that he had feelings. Sort of. I mean, his whole "felt like an arm being cut off" speech on Horizon to a nonromanced Shepard certainly comes close to some admission of need for Shepard, but its all in intepretations, isn't it?

But as it's all in interpretations, I don't see why the writers don't include an option if they feel they could do it well. I think it could be, but the writers might honestly have no interest in including it because their interest is in, say, epic Reaper battles versus romantic characterizations. I'm not going to demand they include a homosexual male love interest simply because I want to see it, but I also don't want them to fear going in that direction.

And as I've been trying to stress, having the option shouldn't diminish ones enjoyment of the series because the fact the option exists doesn't mean you have to experience it. As I've said, the inclusion of a romance with Tali hasn't ruined Mass Effect 2 for me in spite of the fact that I personally have no interest in it. Others do, and they get to enjoy their own games in a different manner from me. That's cool.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I think you are going by if Shepard is the one to start the romance. That's not exactly what I'm talking about.

If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

Side note: I enjoy talking with someone who isn't going to insult me every other post (not everyone has done this, but a few PERSISTENT ones have).

With that logic, then Tali revealing her feelings to Shepard in ME2 shouldn't be acceptable either.  Myself, Pacifen, and many others have been saying this to you but if we're not Paci, we're being insulting. 

That isn't the same thing. Why?

1) That was in ME2, NOT ME3 (you know, the END OF THE SERIES)
2) Tali isn't Kaidan, that's a completely differnet character.

[Pumpeho]

180 changes?  changes so big that you barely recognize those people anymore?  yes, yes they do and its usualy cause by something big (of course you can argue that Shepard's death was a big deal, but in that case why does the letter to romanced Shepard sounds like basicaly unchanged Kaidan/Ashley?)  and they change for everyone they know, not just for a select few.  I'm not a fan of Liara's change.  at all.  its worse if you play ME1 and ME2 back to back, like I did recently.  She goes from someone who concideres revenge undesirable after her own mother's death www.youtube.com/watch and yet few months later she turns into Jack and plots revenge for 2 years over a stranger who betrayed her?  and the thing is, they could have handled it so much better and still kept her bad ass.  they could have written that she was not seeking revenge but rather she was seeking to save a friend.  and/or trying to collect as much information asshe could to help Shepard.  but they messed it up.  they took a character and they didn't make her evolve - they changed her completely into a completely different character.  its like she got a brain trauma or something, except she didn't?

just as one example.

Her mothers case is a bit more grey than Shepard in my opinion. Benezia was mindcontrolled, but even if thats the case it would leave room for diverting feelings. Liara wasnt involved in her mothers descent into madness and might use another emotional response for that situation.

She was, however, involved in the Shadow Broker affair. She may have felt responsible and chose another way to deal with it. Maybe she projected her screw-ups on the Shadow Broker? She also calms down after the Shadow Broker is dead.

Revenge isnt a rational thought. Its an emotion. I, myself, am for example calm and steady most of the time, but push the right buttons and I might explode.


As for Love interests. Im intrigued that a miniscule part of the game (and very cheesy in a funny way) is so debated. Its a game. Not a gay-rights manifesto that has direct connections to the real world. That goes both ways: homophobic/insecure/whatever dudes dont have to be intimidated or upset if a dialogue option to sex up Kaiden shows up. On the other hand, people that want gay male relationships dont need to see red if theres only one option (chicks and lesbian males got Liara already).

I wouldnt be bothered if some characters were hot for both Shepards as long as they let Shepard initiate the Romance for the sole reason to not mess with everyones personal universe. F.ex. It would be wierd if Tali wanted to hook up with my Femshep since Im with Liara since ME1 and Ive built up Tali as a younger sibling.

Modifié par Pumpeho, 24 mars 2011 - 06:47 .

[Ryzaki]

Indeed Tali isn't Kaidan. She was instead morphed into having an attraction to someone outside her species with whom sex could be potentially fatal.  

A species with whom she can't even have skin contact without being "contaminated". A species that might be able to kill her by sneezing on her. 

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. At all.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

That is completely acceptable, but I have to step the fine line of the site rules of conduct to explain why.

One of the most prejudicial comments I see on these forums against having homosexual male love interests have to do with guys being afraid that a gay guy will totally come on to them even though they find anything homosexual completely gross. They don't want to be having a conversation with someone like Zevran in DA:O and have Zevran flirtatiously comment on how handsome he finds their Warden. They are simply that sensitive to the issue.

Now imagine you're a gay guy living in that sort of environment. Knowing that anything vaguely flirtatious could lead to disaster because seemingly straight men can't handle it, you have to be damn careful about what you say or do.

So if Kaidan were made a homosexual love interest option in ME3, the idea that he waited for a signal from Shepard first is completely plausible because if he had made an advance to Shepard in ME1 only to discover Shepard was straight, then we've got a real issue. The fault then is that the writers never gave that Shepard a chance to flirt with Kaidan in the first game, but not pursuing a relationship in one game only to try it in another can easily be explained with "I didn't think you'd be interested" or "it didn't seem like the right time."

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Indeed Tali isn't Kaidan. She was instead morphed into having an attraction to someone outside her species with whom sex could be potentially fatal.  

A species with whom she can't even have skin contact without being "contaminated". A species that might be able to kill her by sneezing on her. 

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. At all.

Any species including her own could kill her through contact. Its obstacle that she tries to overcome, its part of the romance and her character development.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

That is completely acceptable, but I have to step the fine line of the site rules of conduct to explain why.

One of the most prejudicial comments I see on these forums against having homosexual male love interests have to do with guys being afraid that a gay guy will totally come on to them even though they find anything homosexual completely gross. They don't want to be having a conversation with someone like Zevran in DA:O and have Zevran flirtatiously comment on how handsome he finds their Warden. They are simply that sensitive to the issue.

Now imagine you're a gay guy living in that sort of environment. Knowing that anything vaguely flirtatious could lead to disaster because seemingly straight men can't handle it, you have to be damn careful about what you say or do.

So if Kaidan were made a homosexual love interest option in ME3, the idea that he waited for a signal from Shepard first is completely plausible because if he had made an advance to Shepard in ME1 only to discover Shepard was straight, then we've got a real issue. The fault then is that the writers never gave that Shepard a chance to flirt with Kaidan in the first game, but not pursuing a relationship in one game only to try it in another can easily be explained with "I didn't think you'd be interested" or "it didn't seem like the right time."

Another problem with this too, is that once you reject a romance, the relationship between Shepard and the LI kinda dies. They just become comrades, not friends. I want a friendship path. But because Bioware has never done that, (and probably won't for a long time) the relationships will be ruined (in my opinion).

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Indeed Tali isn't Kaidan. She was instead morphed into having an attraction to someone outside her species with whom sex could be potentially fatal.  

A species with whom she can't even have skin contact without being "contaminated". A species that might be able to kill her by sneezing on her. 

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. At all.

Any species including her own could kill her through contact. Its obstacle that she tries to overcome, its part of the romance and her character development.

Which to me makes it more ridculous. 

"Oh I can die by having sex with you walking sack of human bacteria! But I'm gonna take some magical pills that'll somehow make me immune to this for the sole purpose of having sex!" 

Ugh. 

I love you! I've always loved you even when I barely knew you! Even when you were a complete and utter douche and handed over my tramuatized teammate to Cerberus! Even when you didn't give me the valuable Geth Data I needed! I still wub you!  

Bleh. 

The fact that that's acceptable but Kaidan going "oh I have feelings for you male commander." is utterly NO NO NO baffles me. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Indeed Tali isn't Kaidan. She was instead morphed into having an attraction to someone outside her species with whom sex could be potentially fatal.  

A species with whom she can't even have skin contact without being "contaminated". A species that might be able to kill her by sneezing on her. 

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. At all.

Any species including her own could kill her through contact. Its obstacle that she tries to overcome, its part of the romance and her character development.

Which to me makes it more ridculous. 

"Oh I can die by having sex with you walking sack of human bacteria! But I'm gonna take some magical pills that'll somehow make me immune to this for the sole purpose of having sex!" 

Ugh. 

Again, ANY race could potentially kill her, so being with a human barely less a risk then anyone else. Also, shes about to go on a suicide mission where everyone is likely to die, so obviously health isnt a priority. As well, it shows she cares enough about him to risk her health just to be with him. So... whats the problem here?

EDIT: I also noticed you added a bit to your post. I have nothing against turning some characters bi or whatever. Im mainly focusing on what you said about Tali.

Modifié par Quole, 24 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...
Again, ANY race could potentially kill her, so being with a human barely less a risk then anyone else. Also, shes about to go on a suicide mission where everyone is likely to die, so obviously health isnt a priority. As well, it shows she cares enough about him to risk her health just to be with him. So... whats the problem here?

It's stupid. Your going on a suicide mission and your going to risk potentially getting sick (or dying) and screwing up the mission because you want nookie? 

You can care about someone without having sex. 

It was stupid and made her look like a fool girl with stars in her eyes desperate t get the dashing commander to stay with her. 

For me it ruined her characterization. She went from level headed if a bit zealous about geth to an dependant, foolish, impulsive girl who would risk her health and the mission just for a night with Shepard. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Quole]

rynluna wrote...

Quole wrote...
Any species including her own could kill her through contact. Its obstacle that she tries to overcome, its part of the romance and her character development.

In my opinion that isn't a very good development for her.  The fact that she will risk her life, Shepard's life, and the suicide mission all for a night of passion isn't very smart.  But it's there and nothing is going to change that.  It would just be nice to see two s/s humans be able to have intimate relations with each other.

read my other post.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
Again, ANY race could potentially kill her, so being with a human barely less a risk then anyone else. Also, shes about to go on a suicide mission where everyone is likely to die, so obviously health isnt a priority. As well, it shows she cares enough about him to risk her health just to be with him. So... whats the problem here?

It's stupid. Your going on a suicide mission and your going to risk potentially getting sick (or dying) and screwing up the mission because you want nookie? 

You can care about someone without having sex. 

It was stupid and made her look like a fool girl with stars in her eyes desperate t get the dashing commander to stay with her. 

She actually mentions that int he romancce, which is why shepard has the final say of wether or not to go through with it.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote..


She actually mentions that int he romancce, which is why shepard has the final say of wether or not to go through with it.

The fact that she goes along with it period lessens my opinion of her . My opinion has been warped thanks to her romance. 

I see her as little more than a child now. Only a child would risk her health and the mission on sex. Well a child or a desperate fool. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote..


She actually mentions that int he romancce, which is why shepard has the final say of wether or not to go through with it.

The fact that she goes along with it period lessens my opinion of her .

I see her as little more than a child now. Only a child would risk her health and the mission on sex. Well a child or a desperate fool. 

Thats rather immature of you. Shes a virgin, whos never even shown anyone her face and then finds out that someone feels the same way about her that she does them. She knows shes probably about to die ont he suicide mission so she will never get another chance, so she takes the risk.Even then, thats only in shepard agrres to take the risk.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote..


She actually mentions that int he romancce, which is why shepard has the final say of wether or not to go through with it.

The fact that she goes along with it period lessens my opinion of her .

I see her as little more than a child now. Only a child would risk her health and the mission on sex. Well a child or a desperate fool. 

Thats rather immature of you. Shes a virgin, whos never even shown anyone her face and then finds out that someone feels the same way about her that she does them. She knows shes probably about to die ont he suicide mission so she will never get another chance, so she takes the risk.Even then, thats only in shepard agrres to take the risk.

How is it immature of me to think a female risks her health and a mission to save humanity on sex to be foolish? Ra forbid. 

She could also you know do this magical thing called waiting.  And if she was so fearful of death she probably should have approached him before the final hour. Just saying. 

The fact remains she's willing to take the risk. That makes her foolish and reckless to me. Especially given that she is the one who brings up sex not Shepard. 

She is no screaming damsel dragged to bed by Shepard. She approaches Shepard knowning the risks and knowing what she's doing is foolhardy. She just doesn't care. As she says when the mission is over "It was worth it." I hope it would've been worth it had she gotten sick enough to become a liability and screw someone else over. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Another problem with this too, is that once you reject a romance, the relationship between Shepard and the LI kinda dies. They just become comrades, not friends. I want a friendship path. But because Bioware has never done that, (and probably won't for a long time) the relationships will be ruined (in my opinion).

Which is a completely different discussion from what you originally proposed in this thread. As far as I can tell, absolutely nothing I have written has made you rethink your stance on pre-existing love interests being able to romance a same-sex Shepard in ME3. Your opinion was set when you made the thread and you gave 8 reasons why you felt your opinion was valid. And so:

1. It would not cheapen the romance.
2. It could be written to make romances even more unique.
3. It's unrealistic that so many people seem accepting of romance to Shepard to begin with. It's unrealistic to have sound in space. Unrealistic things happen in escapist entertainment.
4. There are arguments as to which love interest is better than the other disregarding the gender issue. There are arguments on whether Star Trek is better than Star Wars. People getting into pointless battles are not good reason to leave something out.
5. DA2 did not take a pre-existing romance from DA:O and then alter it to allow for same-sex romance in the second game. DA2 did allow for each romanceable character to be romanced by either gender however, and you claimed this was acceptable for any new love interest introduced in ME3. Using DA2 as a reason for why pre-existing romances should not be bisexual then is invalid.
6. It's never too late to come out.
7. They're not "suddenly" bi, they just haven't made their orientation clearly known until the third game.
8. Oddly enough, Jack is the only character to outright say she does not swing both way. To say she is then the only acceptable option then is faulty.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

That is completely acceptable, but I have to step the fine line of the site rules of conduct to explain why.

One of the most prejudicial comments I see on these forums against having homosexual male love interests have to do with guys being afraid that a gay guy will totally come on to them even though they find anything homosexual completely gross. They don't want to be having a conversation with someone like Zevran in DA:O and have Zevran flirtatiously comment on how handsome he finds their Warden. They are simply that sensitive to the issue.

Now imagine you're a gay guy living in that sort of environment. Knowing that anything vaguely flirtatious could lead to disaster because seemingly straight men can't handle it, you have to be damn careful about what you say or do.

So if Kaidan were made a homosexual love interest option in ME3, the idea that he waited for a signal from Shepard first is completely plausible because if he had made an advance to Shepard in ME1 only to discover Shepard was straight, then we've got a real issue. The fault then is that the writers never gave that Shepard a chance to flirt with Kaidan in the first game, but not pursuing a relationship in one game only to try it in another can easily be explained with "I didn't think you'd be interested" or "it didn't seem like the right time."

That's only IF SHEPARD starts it. From what I see, when a person comes out about being gay for someone that's like a close friend for them, they are the ones who come out about it (not ALL the time, obviously, but in quite a few cases). And that's where I'm going to have a problem.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote..


She actually mentions that int he romancce, which is why shepard has the final say of wether or not to go through with it.

The fact that she goes along with it period lessens my opinion of her .

I see her as little more than a child now. Only a child would risk her health and the mission on sex. Well a child or a desperate fool. 

Thats rather immature of you. Shes a virgin, whos never even shown anyone her face and then finds out that someone feels the same way about her that she does them. She knows shes probably about to die ont he suicide mission so she will never get another chance, so she takes the risk.Even then, thats only in shepard agrres to take the risk.

How is it immature of me to think a female risks her health and a mission to save humanity on sex to be foolish? Ra forbid. 

She could also you know do this magical thing called waiting.  And if she was so fearful of death she probably should have approached him before the final hour. Just saying. 

The fact remains she's willing to take the risk. That makes her foolish and reckless to me. Especially given that she is the one who brings up sex not Shepard. 

I take you havent actually seen the romance have you?

She only finds out about shepard liking her near the end of the game anyway. She also says that she needs time to prepare (take immuno boosters ect to minimze the risk of her health and the mission), she does everything she can to prepare with the time given, so near the suicide mission makes the most sense.
EDIT: also can you please stop adding to your posts without actually saying      ``EDIT``

Modifié par Quole, 24 mars 2011 - 06:57 .