1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Another problem with this too, is that once you reject a romance, the relationship between Shepard and the LI kinda dies. They just become comrades, not friends. I want a friendship path. But because Bioware has never done that, (and probably won't for a long time) the relationships will be ruined (in my opinion).

Which is a completely different discussion from what you originally proposed in this thread. As far as I can tell, absolutely nothing I have written has made you rethink your stance on pre-existing love interests being able to romance a same-sex Shepard in ME3. Your opinion was set when you made the thread and you gave 8 reasons why you felt your opinion was valid. And so:

1. It would not cheapen the romance.
2. It could be written to make romances even more unique.
3. It's unrealistic that so many people seem accepting of romance to Shepard to begin with. It's unrealistic to have sound in space. Unrealistic things happen in escapist entertainment.
4. There are arguments as to which love interest is better than the other disregarding the gender issue. There are arguments on whether Star Trek is better than Star Wars. People getting into pointless battles are not good reason to leave something out.
5. DA2 did not take a pre-existing romance from DA:O and then alter it to allow for same-sex romance in the second game. DA2 did allow for each romanceable character to be romanced by either gender however, and you claimed this was acceptable for any new love interest introduced in ME3. Using DA2 as a reason for why pre-existing romances should not be bisexual then is invalid.
6. It's never too late to come out.
7. They're not "suddenly" bi, they just haven't made their orientation clearly known until the third game.
8. Oddly enough, Jack is the only character to outright say she does not swing both way. To say she is then the only acceptable option then is faulty.

What you quoted from me (the friendship path thing) is another thing I have forgotten to add.

[jeweledleah]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

That is completely acceptable, but I have to step the fine line of the site rules of conduct to explain why.

One of the most prejudicial comments I see on these forums against having homosexual male love interests have to do with guys being afraid that a gay guy will totally come on to them even though they find anything homosexual completely gross. They don't want to be having a conversation with someone like Zevran in DA:O and have Zevran flirtatiously comment on how handsome he finds their Warden. They are simply that sensitive to the issue.

Now imagine you're a gay guy living in that sort of environment. Knowing that anything vaguely flirtatious could lead to disaster because seemingly straight men can't handle it, you have to be damn careful about what you say or do.

So if Kaidan were made a homosexual love interest option in ME3, the idea that he waited for a signal from Shepard first is completely plausible because if he had made an advance to Shepard in ME1 only to discover Shepard was straight, then we've got a real issue. The fault then is that the writers never gave that Shepard a chance to flirt with Kaidan in the first game, but not pursuing a relationship in one game only to try it in another can easily be explained with "I didn't think you'd be interested" or "it didn't seem like the right time."

bolded assumes that the world of Mass Effect is this sort of enviroment.  and it assums that characters who cannot help but blurt out often inapropriate comments, who cannot help but show their atraction to one gender before Shepard of that gender shows any reciprocal interest, somehow are perfectly capable of hiding it, if the character is a different gender.  It assumes that the world of the future is actively homophobic.

and in either case, we're looking it from different perspectives.  I'm meta gaming.  I don't see a character as multiple interpretable mirror images, where mirrors sometimes are not exactly even.  I see them as one distinct character - the same exact character regardless of the PC, regardless of what PC knows or doesn't know. "Groundhog day" 

you see them as isolated, existing separately in each and every playthrough, so its ok for them to act like a different person have or not have a potential for something, because its a different playthrough.  to me that turns them from distinct interesting characters into marionettes that we position as we chose. just becasue I'm not using a potential for something doesn't mean it's not there and doesn't exists.  its not a game of pick a boo to me. 

[Pacifien]

Fiddles_stix wrote...
I see what Ramirez Wolfen is saying that changing a part of the personality would be weird but what about the reverse say if Liara was only interested in a Shepard of one gender?

Problem with that scenario is that it's a removal of an option that already existed in the first two games. Expanding a romance to both genders is increasing one's options, but not obligating them to experience all options.

And while I'm open to increasing options in a roleplaying game, I would say it has to be written well. If the writers aren't willing to put effort into writing a certain romance, I'm not going to say they have to.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...


I take you havent actually seen the romance have you?

I've played the romance. 

She only finds out about shepard liking her near the end of the game anyway. She also says that she needs time to prepare (take immuno boosters ect to minimze the risk of her health and the mission), she does everything she can to prepare with the time given, so near the suicide mission makes the most sense.
EDIT: also can you please stop adding to your posts without actually saying      ``EDIT``

Actually no. She only finds about Shepard liking her 3 talks after her loyalty mission which can be pretty damn early on. (not early early but early enough before the ending that she can afford a few days off due to sickness) And once again noit doesn't make any sense. It's foolish and immature to go "well I have protection so it'll be okay." that would be fine if she didn't have to be in peak form for a life or death misson. As the case stands to me she looks like a silly girl too enamored with her "commander" to think of her health and safety and that of the people who rely on her. 

As for Edit: The posts says when it's been edited. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 07:01 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

/snip epic post

I just love you, Pacifen.

If you have nothing to add, please don't post things like this. You seem to have an agenda that's just being against me.

[Reptilian Rob]

For Christ sakes, hundreds of years into the future you would think this wouldn't be an issue...

I say we just, oh I don't know, maybe be happy and content with what is given in terms of charater and story? Because god only knows Bioware's character development is light years ahead of other developer's like Bungie.

So, let us be happy with the way this turns out, no matter the outcome. Because, you could always have Bungie behind the characters of Mass Effect...

Think about that one for awhile, the stuff of nightmares.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...


I take you havent actually seen the romance have you?

I've played the romance. 

She only finds out about shepard liking her near the end of the game anyway. She also says that she needs time to prepare (take immuno boosters ect to minimze the risk of her health and the mission), she does everything she can to prepare with the time given, so near the suicide mission makes the most sense.
EDIT: also can you please stop adding to your posts without actually saying      ``EDIT``

Actually no. She only finds about Shepard liking her 3 talks after her loyalty mission which can be pretty damn early on. And once again noit doesn't make any sense. It's foolish and immature to go "well I have protection so it'll be okay." that would be fine if she didn't have to be in peak form for a life or death misson. As the case stands to me she looks like a silly girl too enamored with her "commander" to think of her health and safety and that of the people who rely on her. 

As for Edit: The posts says when it's been edited. 

1. Pretty damn early on? As in after the collector ship, which is not very early on. And yes it does make sense, she did have protection which clearly didnt impede her abilities on the mission. And shes certainly not selfish if shes willing to risk being exiled just to benefit her people.
2. Yes, but you edit you posts constantly and never indicate what wasnty part of the first post and what wasnt.

[Pacifien]

jeweledleah wrote...
bolded assumes that the world of Mass Effect is this sort of enviroment.

Actually, my assumption is that the Mass Effect universe is incredibly open about sexuality such that a thread like this wouldn't exist in its timeframe. However, the people who play Mass Effect make issues about sexuality more sensitive than it needs to be.

jeweledleah wrote...
you see them as isolated, existing separately in each and every playthrough, so its ok for them to act like a different person have or not have a potential for something, because its a different playthrough.  to me that turns them from distinct interesting characters into marionettes that we position as we chose. just becasue I'm not using a potential for something doesn't mean it's not there and doesn't exists.  its not a game of pick a boo to me. 

I like to think the decisions I make in the game lead to very different experiences with each playthrough. Letting the Destiny Ascension be destroyed takes me on a path that one would not see if you had saved the Destiny Ascension. Romancing Kaidan with a female Shepard from Mass Effect 1 is distinctly different than starting a romance with a male Shepard in Mass Effect 3. As sexuality is only a very small part of what defines a person's personality, Kaidan will still be Kaidan no matter what type of Shepard romanced him, but the experience of the romance should be different.

That's my ideal roleplaying game, but as mighty as BioWare can be, it has not met my expectations with any of their games quite yet.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
What you quoted from me (the friendship path thing) is another thing I have forgotten to add.

You're really not interested in debate, are you?

You list eight reasons. I refute each reason. You... just ignore it utterly.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

1. Pretty damn early on? As in after the collector ship, which is not very early on. And yes it does make sense, she did have protection which clearly didnt impede her abilities on the mission. And shes certainly not selfish if shes willing to risk being exiled just to benefit her people.
2. Yes, but you edit you posts constantly and never indicate what wasnty part of the first post and what wasnt.

Yes that's easily about a week before the crew is kidnapped. It's early on enough if she was serious about wanting to be with him without waiting until they were about he enter the lion's den she culd've done it. AS it is now she decides "Oh Shepard! Let's do it now! Right before we enter the abyss where we don't know what could happen and I have no guarantee I'm not going to get sick or worse." 

To me it was idiocy at it's finest and greately diminished my liking and respect for the character. As it is now she's completely and utterly ruined for me. I don't even want her in my ME3 game. Period. I found her to become too fanservicey and dependant and just plain childish. 

Selfish? That was far more about her father's memory than it was her people. She didn't want her father to become a "bogey man." 

I'll markit down for you then. 

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...


I take you havent actually seen the romance have you?

I've played the romance. 

She only finds out about shepard liking her near the end of the game anyway. She also says that she needs time to prepare (take immuno boosters ect to minimze the risk of her health and the mission), she does everything she can to prepare with the time given, so near the suicide mission makes the most sense.
EDIT: also can you please stop adding to your posts without actually saying      ``EDIT``

Actually no. She only finds about Shepard liking her 3 talks after her loyalty mission which can be pretty damn early on. (not early early but early enough before the ending that she can afford a few days off due to sickness) And once again noit doesn't make any sense. It's foolish and immature to go "well I have protection so it'll be okay." that would be fine if she didn't have to be in peak form for a life or death misson. As the case stands to me she looks like a silly girl too enamored with her "commander" to think of her health and safety and that of the people who rely on her. 

As for Edit: The posts says when it's been edited. 

Also, your argument of her risking herself and everyone else is being blown completely out of proportion.
The best she could do on the mission is hack a terminal, something Legion and Kasumi can do perfectly. She really wouldnt be able to do too much on the mission anyway, in yet she still took all the precautions (including getting help from the mordin) and still only did it when shepard agreed.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
What you quoted from me (the friendship path thing) is another thing I have forgotten to add.

You're really not interested in debate, are you?

You list eight reasons. I refute each reason. You... just ignore it utterly.

I AM interested in debate, but I did say that I was tired, too. I've been here all day. Not your problem, yes, but I would discuss that with you if I was more awake.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

1. Pretty damn early on? As in after the collector ship, which is not very early on. And yes it does make sense, she did have protection which clearly didnt impede her abilities on the mission. And shes certainly not selfish if shes willing to risk being exiled just to benefit her people.
2. Yes, but you edit you posts constantly and never indicate what wasnty part of the first post and what wasnt.

Yes that's easily about a week before the crew is kidnapped. It's early on enough if she was serious about wanting to be with him without waiting until they were about he enter the lion's den she culd've done it. AS it is now she decides "Oh Shepard! Let's do it now! Right before we enter the abyss where we don't know what could happen and I have no guarantee I'm not going to get sick or worse." 

To me it was idiocy at it's finest and greately diminished my liking and respect for the character. As it is now she's completely and utterly ruined for me. I don't even want her in my ME3 game. Period. I found her to become too fanservicey and dependant and just plain childish. 

Selfish? That was far more about her father's memory than it was her people. She didn't want her father to become a "bogey man." 

I'll markit down for you then. 

¸Thats still pretty selfless...

[Pacifien]

Arguing specifically about Tali's relationship might warrant a spinoff thread.

I hate altering between me as a regular poster giving my opinion and my suggestions as a moderator, though. So do what you will with my suggestion and I'll just let another moderator know to watch the thread.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Also, your argument of her risking herself and everyone else is being blown completely out of proportion.
The best she could do on the mission is hack a terminal, something Legion and Kasumi can do perfectly. She really wouldnt be able to do too much on the mission anyway, in yet she still took all the precautions (including getting help from the mordin) and still only did it when shepard agreed.

First off. she doesn't know that. 

They have no clue what they are going to find there. No clue at all. All they know is that there's exploding stars. 

They didn't know (there would convienetly be) a job for a tech, soldier, leader and such. You are told to prepare for anything. 

She risked her life and her crews safety on an unknown because she wanted to sleep with Shepard. It doesn't matter if he agreeded she's a grown woman. Sh should be able to think for herself and realize that not putting her life in danger and consequently others is far more important than sleeping with Shepard. No matter how much she wants to. 

To do otherwise diminished her in my eyes and made her look like a lovestruck fool girl. 

Edit: 

Quole wrote...

¸Thats still pretty selfless...

Wanting to protect your father's name even if it meansall the atrocities he committed are swept under the map is okay? Letting others families die and them never knowning the reason is selfless? Letting others take the blame for her father's mistake is selfless? 

No it's not. It's selfish. She didn't want her father to become anything other than a hero. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 07:16 .

[Quole]

Fair enough. This argument is going nowhere anyway.

[Wittand25]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I think you are going by if Shepard is the one to start the romance. That's not exactly what I'm talking about.

If I go by what you are talking about, I think it will go like this:

Shepard: Hey Kaidan, I've always loved you.
Kaidan: YAY I love you too! I've just been holding these feelings back but now it's different!

If you ask me, this is NOT acceptable.

Kaidan being a possible LI for male Shepard in ME3 I think will probably mean that Kaidan is the one to start the romance. And that's where my scenario comes in. Also, looking back at ME1 and ME2, I really don't see a "friends" path. Actually, I don't see it in any Bioware game at all. That's another reason why I'm against changing them. I don't want to ruin the relationship just because I didn't accept someone's advances.

Side note: I enjoy talking with someone who isn't going to insult me every other post (not everyone has done this, but a few PERSISTENT ones have).

Both DA games have non romantic friendships with the LIs. Even someone like Isabela,who´s promiscuity is a running gag, can be your best friend without any sexual tension what so ever. the same is true for the other possible Lis as well.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Also, your argument of her risking herself and everyone else is being blown completely out of proportion.
The best she could do on the mission is hack a terminal, something Legion and Kasumi can do perfectly. She really wouldnt be able to do too much on the mission anyway, in yet she still took all the precautions (including getting help from the mordin) and still only did it when shepard agreed.

First off. she doesn't know that. 

They have no clue what they are going to find there. No clue at all. All they know is that there's exploding stars. 

They didn't know (there would convienetly be) a job for a tech, soldier, leader and such. You are told to prepare for anything. 

She risked he life and hr crews safety on an unknown because she wanted to sleep with Shepard. It doesn't matter if he agreeded she's a grown woman. Sh should be ableto hink for herself and realize that not putting her life in danger and consequently others is far more important than sleeping with Shepard. No matter how much she wants to. 

To do otherwise diminished her in my eyes and made her look like a lovestruck fool girl. 

Im aware of that, the point is in order for her to actually be useful on the mission there would need to be 3 terminal to hack simotaneously, which is pretty unlikely, and even then, thats the only way she could jeapordize the mission, which is a pretty small chance coupled with allt he other precautions she took. Hence why I said youa re blowing it way out of proportion.

EDIT: Well thats OT enough, regardless of this argument, lets focus ont he actualy thread.

Modifié par Quole, 24 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Quole]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If you have nothing to add, please don't post things like this. You seem to have an agenda that's just being against me.

I was really quite in awe of Pacifen's skills in quashing all the claims you made in the OP.  I am in complete agreement with her and you just don't like that so many people are calling you out for being quite sketchy, not being able to back up your claims, and subsequently calling me insulting because my opinion is different than yours.  If you were going to post such a topic you could have at least thought it out more carefully or readied yourself to be able to take criticism in a public forum.  That's how these things work, ya know?

Quole wrote...

Fair enough. This argument is going nowhere anyway.

Yeah, honestly this thread deserved to die a long time ago.

lol. Agreed.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Im aware of that, the point is in order for her to actually be useful on the mission there would need to be 3 terminal to hack simotaneously, which is pretty unlikely, and even then, thats the only way she could jeapordize the mission, which is a pretty small chance coupled with allt he other precautions she took. Hence why I said youa re blowing it way out of proportion.

No actually I'm not. You're using metagame knowledge to validate her actions. I'm not. 

Tali didn't know any of that. She had to prepare for anything. She had no way of knowning she might or might not be needed. She decided to risk her health and the mission to sleep with Shepard. 

There is no "oh but she-" to this. She took a risk, she was aware of the risks. 

I find her actions childish and foolish. That's not going to change. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Also, I still don't see LIs being bi in ME3 just because it COULD be done. It COULD also be a big failure. How so? Like jeweledleah said, copy and paste and such. I would like to see some FACTS as to how it could be better for them to be bi.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If you have nothing to add, please don't post things like this. You seem to have an agenda that's just being against me.

I was really quite in awe of Pacifen's skills in quashing all the claims you made in the OP.  I am in complete agreement with her and you just don't like that so many people are calling you out for being quite sketchy, not being able to back up your claims, and subsequently calling me insulting because my opinion is different than yours.  If you were going to post such a topic you could have at least thought it out more carefully or readied yourself to be able to take criticism in a public forum.  That's how these things work, ya know?

Quole wrote...

Fair enough. This argument is going nowhere anyway.

Yeah, honestly this thread deserved to die a long time ago.

Everything Pacifien "squashed" I already gave counter arguments for. Also, if you don't like the thread you could just ignore it and leave it alone, ya know?

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Im aware of that, the point is in order for her to actually be useful on the mission there would need to be 3 terminal to hack simotaneously, which is pretty unlikely, and even then, thats the only way she could jeapordize the mission, which is a pretty small chance coupled with allt he other precautions she took. Hence why I said youa re blowing it way out of proportion.

No actually I'm not. You're using metagame knowledge to validate her actions. I'm not. 

Tali didn't know any of that. She had to prepare for anything. She had no way of knowning she might or might not be needed. She decided to risk her health and the mission to sleep with Shepard. 

There is no "oh but she-" to this. She took a risk, she was aware of the risks. 

I find her actions childish and foolish. That's not going to change. 

I take it you didnt actually READ what I said. Well I was going to continue this argument but the bolded sentence proves that its going nowhere.

Modifié par Quole, 24 mars 2011 - 07:21 .