1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Julie the bogan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Also, I still don't see LIs being bi in ME3 just because it COULD be done. It COULD also be a big failure. How so? Like jeweledleah said, copy and paste and such. I would like to see some FACTS as to how it could be better for them to be bi.

Do you not trust Bioware to reassess and learn?
Give them a little more credit

[Bourne Endeavor]

Debating the Garrus and Tali romances is essentially futile. They are fanservice and nothing more. They are not rational, realistic, plausible or intelligent. Frankly, your Shepard is a moron were you to view them for a technical perspective. For instance, sex with Garrus could poison Femshep. So unless her cybernetics render cyanide to cause a mild stomach ache. It is a widely better you avoid the idea entirely.

But the fans want it and so... fanservice. No other reason. Coincidently a similar argument could be made for bisexualizing everyone. If BioWare wants to spend the extra dollars to mimic an already written romance. Whatever, go for it. I do see the other send of the debate mind you. Like before, so long as they do not continue with the "lets have teh sex or I no talk to you!" angle. I could not care less.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 24 mars 2011 - 08:16 .

[Lee337]

I agree with Pacifen i a sense, half the reason for me is that getting hit on by guys puts me off, I didn't like talking to Zevran too much. I don't have anything against the people but I hate the attention, makes me feel very uneasy. I'm not a fan of seeing male/male stuff like kissing or even holding hands, but that's my problem and I see no reason to force others to stop because I don't like something. Othwerwise I'd be hunting down those who eat snails too. Yuck!

So if all the romances were like Zevrans or even Anders who professed feelings whithout me asking, I'd struggle to play the game. But if they were written in so that there was no hint of a relatiionship until suggested by the player with a very obvious option, I'd be o.k with that, and I'd be ok with a gay squadmate being open if it was just the one.

The other reason I have is it just feels s unrealistic that everyone is gay/bi and would ruin the immersion for me.
prefer concrete characters rather than those that change to your
character. I don't want to be able to choose what sex they prefer
anymore than choosing what race they are. I'd be fine if I tried to romance a girl and she said Sorry, I prefer girls. It happens, and I feel it would deepen her character rather than her liking me romantically just like all the others!


So having the friendship only path available unless Shepard brings up the topic with a very obvious option, would be fine for me too. But I still like the girls to act interested. Double standard I know.
S/S romances wouldn't have the same feel that hetro realtionships would until initiated by the player in that case, but they would be available. Maybe an acceptable way to look at it is that Shepard is a commander and it's not obvious that he would be bi/gay to other crew and it's unlikely they would initiate anything with a superior being a more sensitive subject that a hetro relationship.
I

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, I still don't see LIs being bi in ME3 just because it COULD be done. It COULD also be a big failure. How so? Like jeweledleah said, copy and paste and such. I would like to see some FACTS as to how it could be better for them to be bi.

It is a fact that I have wanted to see Kaidan with a male Shepard for a long time and would get great enjoyment to see this finally brought to reality by the third game.

But other than that, you're asking for facts on a hypothetical situation?

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...
I take it you didnt actually READ what I said. Well I was going to continue this argument but the bolded sentence proves that its going nowhere.

I did read what you said. You said I should judge Tali based off metagaming reasoning.

I.E.: Nothing happened in the mission that couldn't have been done by someone else

That's ridculous. Tali doesn't have metagame knowledge when she made her decision. I"m juding her based off the knowledge she had. 

And she comes off as a childish enamored little girl. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 07:26 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Julie Shepard wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Also, I still don't see LIs being bi in ME3 just because it COULD be done. It COULD also be a big failure. How so? Like jeweledleah said, copy and paste and such. I would like to see some FACTS as to how it could be better for them to be bi.

Do you not trust Bioware to reassess and learn?
Give them a little more credit

*looks at Garrus*
"Hey buddy!"
"Can it wait a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations."

Yeah, they have not inspired much confidence in character dialogue for this series. So my giving credit account is about empty.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, I still don't see LIs being bi in ME3 just because it COULD be done. It COULD also be a big failure. How so? Like jeweledleah said, copy and paste and such. I would like to see some FACTS as to how it could be better for them to be bi.

It is a fact that I have wanted to see Kaidan with a male Shepard for a long time and would get great enjoyment to see this finally brought to reality by the third game.

But other than that, you're asking for facts on a hypothetical situation?

I wanted to see it, too (in ME1), but I didn't. I moved on from that and hope that we get new characters that are gay or bi.

Yes, I want proof where changing people's sexuality has WORKED.

EDIT: facts too.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 24 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[Nashiktal]

I highly doubt any sickness Tali would get from sexing up shep would take effect during the suicide mission. It's not like Tali actually gets a disease from shep as much as her body reacts violently to the foreign substances from shep.

If she were to die, or be severely impaired it would take quite some time to do so. Especially when you consider how often her body is exposed to dangerous substances anyways. (She gets shot to hight hell almost every time she leaves the ship. Hadn't seen her fall to infection yet.)

Honestly though if you are so dead set on you viewpoint for Tali, why are you even arguing about it?

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
I take it you didnt actually READ what I said. Well I was going to continue this argument but the bolded sentence proves that its going nowhere.

I did read what you said. Yousaid I should judge Tali based off metagaming reasoning. That's ridculous. Tali doesn't have metagame knowledge when she made her decision. I"m juding her based offthe knowledge she had. 

And she comes off as a childish enamored little girl. 

Then I take it you didnt UNDERSTAND what I said, because what I said had nothing to do with that. Im not even going to bother to explain it to you, Im really not in mood for more arguments.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Everything Pacifien "squashed" I already gave counter arguments for. Also, if you don't like the thread you could just ignore it and leave it alone, ya know?

No you complained that you were tired and couldn't have a full debate with her and yet you are still here when you should be asleep.    I enjoy debating so that's why I am here.

Maybe I was talking about EARLIER IN THE THREAD?

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Then I take it you didnt UNDERSTAND what I said, because what I said had nothing to do with that. Im not even going to bother to explain it to you, Im really not in mood for more arguments.

Okay then let me quote you. 

Quole wrote...

Im aware of that, the point is in order for her to actually be useful on the mission there would need to be 3 terminal to hack simotaneously, which is pretty unlikely, and even then, thats the only way she could jeapordize the mission, which is a pretty small chance coupled with allt he other precautions she took. Hence why I said youa re blowing it way out of proportion.

EDIT: Well thats OT enough, regardless of this argument, lets focus ont he actualy thread.

That's metagaming. 

Tali is unaware of this when she makes the decision. 

Thus I consider her childish and foolish for taking a risk of getting sick (she had no guarantee she'd be perfectly fine and she wasn't) for sex before a dangerous mission that she had no clue if she would be needed or not. 

You don't have to agree with me. But the fact remains Tali took a heavy risk just to have sex with Shepard. No matter how much she "minimized" it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Yes, I want proof where changing people's sexuality has WORKED.

What you view as a change I view as an addition to a character that is not outright contradictory to what you have learned about the character. A male Shepard is never given an option to flirt with Kaidan, and thus we never get a direct statement from Kaidan that he would not be interested in such a relationship. Just as a male Shepard is never given an option to flirt with Tali in Mass Effect 1, but that does not preclude the option to romance her in the second game.

Now there's Anders from the Dragon Age series who was clearly not written as a homosexual character in Awakening, but can be romanced by a male Hawke in Dragon Age 2. That romance worked for me about as well as the romance with a female Hawke.

There was also Willow from the Buffy series who came out as a lesbian after we'd already seen her in a heterosexual relationship in that series. That worked.

[Lee337]

Wasn't it mentioned earlier about an option asking if you wanted to turn on same/sex relationships? Maybe it's a decent idea but instead it should be that same sex is available by default buy have an option in settings to turn off the same sex for those who are uncomfortable with it.

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Then I take it you didnt UNDERSTAND what I said, because what I said had nothing to do with that. Im not even going to bother to explain it to you, Im really not in mood for more arguments.

Okay then let me quote you. 

Quole wrote...

Im aware of that, the point is in order for her to actually be useful on the mission there would need to be 3 terminal to hack simotaneously, which is pretty unlikely, and even then, thats the only way she could jeapordize the mission, which is a pretty small chance coupled with allt he other precautions she took. Hence why I said youa re blowing it way out of proportion.

EDIT: Well thats OT enough, regardless of this argument, lets focus ont he actualy thread.

That's metagaming. 

Tali is unaware of this when she makes the decision. 

Thus I consider her childish and foolish for taking a risk of getting sick (she had no guarantee she'd be perfectly fine and she wasn't) for sex before a dangerous mission that she had no clue if she would be needed or not. 

no. Perhaps I could have explained it better.

The only real talent Tali has that could possibly help in a mission like that is hacking a terminal. SOmething that both Legion and Kasumi can do just as well. So there would need to be three terminals, all of which need to be hacked at the same time in order for Tali to specifically have anything to do on any the mission. So the chances of that happening are incredibly small, not to mention she took all the precautions necessary anyway. So yes, you are blowing it out of proportion.

Did I explain it better this time/

[Unkei]

TL;DR

But i disagree with op.

[jeweledleah]

Pacifien wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
bolded assumes that the world of Mass Effect is this sort of enviroment.

Actually, my assumption is that the Mass Effect universe is incredibly open about sexuality such that a thread like this wouldn't exist in its timeframe. However, the people who play Mass Effect make issues about sexuality more sensitive than it needs to be.

jeweledleah wrote...
you see them as isolated, existing separately in each and every playthrough, so its ok for them to act like a different person have or not have a potential for something, because its a different playthrough.  to me that turns them from distinct interesting characters into marionettes that we position as we chose. just becasue I'm not using a potential for something doesn't mean it's not there and doesn't exists.  its not a game of pick a boo to me. 

I like to think the decisions I make in the game lead to very different experiences with each playthrough. Letting the Destiny Ascension be destroyed takes me on a path that one would not see if you had saved the Destiny Ascension. Romancing Kaidan with a female Shepard from Mass Effect 1 is distinctly different than starting a romance with a male Shepard in Mass Effect 3. As sexuality is only a very small part of what defines a person's personality, Kaidan will still be Kaidan no matter what type of Shepard romanced him, but the experience of the romance should be different.

That's my ideal roleplaying game, but as mighty as BioWare can be, it has not met my expectations with any of their games quite yet.

but if sexuality unacceptance reasons do not exist in a world of Mass effect, then we cannot use "hiding one's sexuality because they would be afaird of negative reaction" as a reason why it only comes up years later, now can we (not to mention all these pesky displays of atraction that both Ash and Kaidan exibit, untill you nip that romance in a bud)?? 

which means, a different reason would have to be created.  a different sort of story.  do they develop that atraction later on?  is it initiated ala Garrus with Kaidan/Ashley being surprised but gradualy growing interested?    how does it affect shepards of the oposite gender that didn't pursue the romance in a first game?  how do we write a dialogue that keeps to the precedent of prior games, keeps consistent?

can it be done?  anything can be done with enough time, money and skill.  but we already have different writers trying to write established characters,  there are already so many variables in the game to account for that I don't see them giving this particular subplott attention it deserves.  and I'm sorry but "you just never asked me before" is not good writing.

and btw - personaly I would have prefered that Ander's past lovers
were people we've never met, becasue its the specific past lover that
they gave him that changes everything....selectively of course.

edited to add, becasue I forget things when I'm sleepy.

in Groundhog day - the choices main character makes affect the how the rest of the day goes and what happens to everyone asa result.  he also affects the people around them and can change them somewhat.  but in the beginning of the day - paramenters don't change.  participants don't change,  they are exactly the same each and every day.

you can renegade/paragon characters.  it affects them.  but you cannot change their sexuality.  it was either there to begin with, or it wasn't sso if it wasn't avaialbe before, but becomes available later one - it has to be written in such a way as to not contradict prior behavior.

P.S.  I wish people would stop using meta gaming as a dirty word.  when writers are writing a character, I highly doubt they are writing it as 10, 20 whatever different characters.  they have singular parameters and then work out how this character would have evolved and respond depending on the variables players can chose.  but its still the same singular character, so essentialy - writers are ultimate metagamers.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 24 mars 2011 - 07:44 .

[J. Finley]

I'm thinking maybe the reason they made the romances the way they are is that there are actually differences between female Shep and male Shep. Besides the obvious physical differences. I mean, one of the main reasons for replaying as another gender is for a different experience.

I'm guessing they want to add an incentive to replay as another gender, and to stress how different male shep is from female shep.


Just thinking out loud.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...
no. Perhaps I could have explained it better.

The only real talent Tali has that could possibly help in a mission like that is hacking a terminal. SOmething that both Legion and Kasumi can do just as well. So there would need to be three terminals, all of which need to be hacked at the same time in order for Tali to specifically have anything to do on any the mission. So the chances of that happening are incredibly small, not to mention she took all the precautions necessary anyway. So yes, you are blowing it out of proportion.

Did I explain it better this time/

You miss the fact that Tali is a skilled combatant? Certainly not on the levels of some of the crew but she's no slouch. And mechanics can do far more than simply hack terminals. She could've been used for a variety of roles far more important than just hacking anything. 

And your still metagaming. They have no clue what they face. For all they know they could be swarmed by Collectors as soon as they get on ship. They would need as much firepower as they could use to protect themselves. And what pray tell would a sick Tali do other than be a liability and distract Shepard/other crew member who may or may not end up injured/dead/out of the fight trying to protect her? 

She becomes a liability. 

It is a foolish thing to do. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2011 - 07:39 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Jayman1337 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Jayman1337 wrote...

Personally, I'm going to take the first side. I was able to shut-out all
the Talimance stuff for a while, and then I saw all the "face" videos
on youtube so now I don't have to.

Do you mean to accept the other side in a humorous way or something? Funny vid btw.

You know, it does help a bit. I mean, its just a game. We're all just arguing more passionately over a technicality than the character itself at this point.

That actually does make me LOL. As long as they don't change the character's personality I guess it doesn't matter, since it wouldn't be hinted at if they're bisexual at all for straight sheps.

I would disagree. Liara, the series only bisexual character, not only hints to you the possibility but kinda beats you over the head with it. She openly comes on to you and that can be kinda awkward.

If Bioware did anything like that with an existing character like Garrus or Jack it would be wrong and, since Liara is the only example of the ME team taking a hand at this, the only logical thing to expect is for them to botch it based on their past actions.

The ME team is not the same team as the DA team.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Yes, I want proof where changing people's sexuality has WORKED.

What you view as a change I view as an addition to a character that is not outright contradictory to what you have learned about the character. A male Shepard is never given an option to flirt with Kaidan, and thus we never get a direct statement from Kaidan that he would not be interested in such a relationship. Just as a male Shepard is never given an option to flirt with Tali in Mass Effect 1, but that does not preclude the option to romance her in the second game.

Now there's Anders from the Dragon Age series who was clearly not written as a homosexual character in Awakening, but can be romanced by a male Hawke in Dragon Age 2. That romance worked for me about as well as the romance with a female Hawke.

There was also Willow from the Buffy series who came out as a lesbian after we'd already seen her in a heterosexual relationship in that series. That worked.

Can you explain to me exactly HOW those worked?

[Pacifien]

Lee337 wrote...
Wasn't it mentioned earlier about an option asking if you wanted to turn on same/sex relationships? Maybe it's a decent idea but instead it should be that same sex is available by default buy have an option in settings to turn off the same sex for those who are uncomfortable with it.

I had thought the icon representation used by Dragon Age 2 worked well enough, but I read how guys say Anders still hits on a male Hawke. My gut reaction is to think they've clicked on a flirtatious option in spite of my better self saying I should simply give them the benefit of the doubt that the system failed them somehow in avoiding unwanted advances. I don't read about Fenris hitting on the guys, so it half works.

Turning off a setting sounds better to me than having to turn on a setting, but I still have flashes across my eyes of a future as moderator where people fail to find the setting and are outraged at the result. Actually, I should be having this future flash before my ideas by my advocating bisexual/same-sex options, but I have to juggle what I want with the reality of the world while trying to debate here.

[GuardianAngel470]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
no. Perhaps I could have explained it better.

The only real talent Tali has that could possibly help in a mission like that is hacking a terminal. SOmething that both Legion and Kasumi can do just as well. So there would need to be three terminals, all of which need to be hacked at the same time in order for Tali to specifically have anything to do on any the mission. So the chances of that happening are incredibly small, not to mention she took all the precautions necessary anyway. So yes, you are blowing it out of proportion.

Did I explain it better this time/

You miss the fact that Tali is a skilled combatant? Certainly not on the levels of some of the crew but she's no slouch. And mechanics can do far more than simply hack terminals. She could've been used for a variety of roles far more important than just hacking anything. 

And your still metagaming. They have no clue what they face. For all they know they could be swarmed by Collectors as soon as they get on ship. They would need as much firepower as they could use to protect themselves. And what pray tell would a sick Tali do other than be a liability and distract Shepard/other crew member who may or may not end up injured/dead/out of the fight trying to protect her? 

She becomes a liability. 

It is a foolish thing to do. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on Joker's dialog if you romance no one, the Tali romance occurs before symptoms can manifest, even if it is just an alergic reaction (IMO).

Just a thought...

[Nashiktal]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...
no. Perhaps I could have explained it better.

The only real talent Tali has that could possibly help in a mission like that is hacking a terminal. SOmething that both Legion and Kasumi can do just as well. So there would need to be three terminals, all of which need to be hacked at the same time in order for Tali to specifically have anything to do on any the mission. So the chances of that happening are incredibly small, not to mention she took all the precautions necessary anyway. So yes, you are blowing it out of proportion.

Did I explain it better this time/

You miss the fact that Tali is a skilled combatant? Certainly not on the levels of some of the crew but she's no slouch. And mechanics can do far more than simply hack terminals. She could've been used for a variety of roles far more important than just hacking anything. 

And your still metagaming. They have no clue what they face. For all they know they could be swarmed by Collectors as soon as they get on ship. They would need as much firepower as they could use to protect themselves. And what pray tell would a sick Tali do other than be a liability and distract Shepard/other crew member who may or may not end up injured/dead/out of the fight trying to protect her? 

She becomes a liability. 

It is a foolish thing to do. 

I highly doubt any sickness Tali would get from sexing up shep would take effect during the suicide mission. It's not like Tali actually gets a disease from shep as much as her body reacts violently to the foreign substances from shep.

If she were to die, or be severely impaired it would take quite some time to do so. Especially when you consider how often her body is exposed to dangerous substances anyways. (She gets shot to hight hell almost every time she leaves the ship. Hadn't seen her fall to infection yet.)

Not to mention Femshep does the exact same thing with garrus, and maleshep shares the danger of ingesting Tali's dangerous tissue as well.