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[GuardianAngel470]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Read OP. Also, that's just some seriously lame retconning. And NO, (not meant at you Pacifien), I AM NOT GOING TO ARGUE ABOUT TALI.


EDIT: Being "retconned", that is.

I did read the OP. I responded to it and you ignored it. And as much as you want to ignore the argument about Tali, it's seen by many people as being very much in the same vein of retcon as you claim the same sex romance option would be. Oddly enough, "retcon" isn't even one of your reasons in the OP.

And how is it a retcon if you don't intend to experience them? It doesn't exist in your game. When you pick a path to follow in your game, it alters how your game develops in comparison to others. If you never flirt with Kaidan, then he never wants to jump into your pants and you can go the whole series without ever discussing anything about his sexuality. It can be that simple.

I would imagine that's much harder than you think Pacifien. Just look at the ninja romances of ME1, Ashley and Kaiden. You may never even know you're flirting without the obvious heart dialog as I've seen described and it maybe accidental (thumbsticks are notorious for their inaccuracy).

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Look when it comes to Tali and Garrus, I don't consider that retconning. But Like i said, I'm not arguing this. (it's almost six in the morning)

You've been arguing it all night and many people, Paci especially refuted all of your claims.  In the end, you just aren't comfortable with the fact that a Shepard might decide to pursue a s/s romance with a pre-existing character.  Tali the hetero is okay but you draw the line at the gay. 

Pacifien isn't giving sufficient proof (two aren't enough). Maybe you would like to help her?

And once again, I am not against gay LIs, just changing characters.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 24 mars 2011 - 10:02 .

[Praetor Knight]

I hope relationships are only a minor tertiary concern for the dev team.

I'd rather not go adding new relationship avenues for the finale of a Trilogy and prefer to wrap up any that may have been started.

Or maybe just leave any hanging like Thane did, in that one thread I read about, if that's another option for ME3. 



And to be clear, I personally wouldn't mind any new relationships, but at the same time I hope that existing characters are not forced to be something they are not.

At any rate my cannon Shep will remain celibate and single, focusing on the saving the Galaxy instead. 

[GuardianAngel470]

rynluna wrote...


Yes, I definitely noticed a change in Liara and it brought me some discomfort at first but I like angst in relationships and stories so I accepted it.  You are assuming that if say Kaidan or Ash are made bisexual that their entire persona would change.  Many people are assuming that and there's a chance of that not happening.  Many people are also assuming that these chars are going to approach Shep with their gay feelings and Shep won't be able to fend off their advances.  Most likely, Shep will have to iniate it via an obvious dialog choice that you pick or you don't.  Garrus still remains your str8 bro and in another universe he is gay for Shepard.  You'd never have to witness this unless you youtubed it.

I'm not arguing that they we won't be able to fend off their advances but something you should recognize is that, as far as revealing BI romances go in the ME universe, Bioware has a crappy track record. So far, Bioware's only Bi romance option in the ME universe, Liara, is forced on you. You cannot take into account how it was done in DA unless the members of that team join the ME team.

They are two different writing teams and two different design teams to the best of my knowledge.

Yes the possibility exists that it could be done slyly but based on existing ME content, Bioware is 0 for 1 in that department.

And the reverse is true as well. Not only did they fail at revealing a Bi romance subtly but they failed revealing almost all ME2 hetero romances subtly. The only romances that were subtle were the Kaidan/Ashley ones and people complained about accidentally falling into those as well.

The possibility may exist, but all evidence points to the contrary. It isn't an assumption but an educated guess.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 24 mars 2011 - 10:10 .

[Lee337]

Although I do mostly agree with you Wolfen, I also agree with Pacifen in that if the option was there and clearly marked, you don't have to follow that branch of the tree. As long as Shepard is the once to initiate flirting without the crew memeber dropping hints, then you can ignore that branch and assume they would have said no, thanks anyway. It's your own Sheps story, you can play it as you choose (again so long as Shep makes first move).

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Pacifien isn't giving sufficient proof (two aren't enough). Maybe you would like to help her?

And once again, I am not against gay LIs, just changing characters. Like Tali and Garrus.

Oh, we've been giving sufficent proof all night.  You are the one who ignores the posts or claims that you have proof of Tali's straightness via a video but can't seem to find it. 

Fix'd

Messing with people's posts? How mature. Are you still mad about the Samara joke? Because I don't see any other reason for your attitude.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And more than likely I AM going to experience it, regardless of whether I like it or not. If he's going to be bi, Bioware will more than likely make it where Kaidan  (or whoever, depending on your Shepard's gender) is the one to bring it up.

Really, I had no idea the writers already wrote out the scenario and let you read it. And that if he were to indicate his sexuality, you then MUST ROMANCE HIM.

Just because the option exists doesn't mean you have to do it. It doesn't even mean it will be written poorly if the writer was keen on doing it. Knowing it exists offends you? You assume the writers, who you said seemed to do a fine job with ME2, will suddenly screw up in ME3 on this one point?

If you listened to Kaidan's speech to a male Shepard while on Horizon, I honestly don't see how that somehow would contradict any possible feelings he could express for a male Shepard in ME3. The dialogue between Tali and a female Shepard leans heavily toward the possibility of romance if the writers wished. It would not be the same type of romance as a Tali with a male Shepard that begins in ME2, but you already said that you think having romances play out the same is monotonous and unnecessary.

You don't want someone who plays as a female Shepard to experience a romance with Tali. I get it. You played your games one way, interpreted the characters one way, and the thought that someone could play it and interpret it differently is somehow an offense to you in spite of the fact you don't have to play your game their way at all. Fine.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And more than likely I AM going to experience it, regardless of whether I like it or not. If he's going to be bi, Bioware will more than likely make it where Kaidan  (or whoever, depending on your Shepard's gender) is the one to bring it up.

Really, I had no idea the writers already wrote out the scenario and let you read it. And that if he were to indicate his sexuality, you then MUST ROMANCE HIM.

Just because the option exists doesn't mean you have to do it. It doesn't even mean it will be written poorly if the writer was keen on doing it. Knowing it exists offends you? You assume the writers, who you said seemed to do a fine job with ME2, will suddenly screw up in ME3 on this one point?

If you listened to Kaidan's speech to a male Shepard while on Horizon, I honestly don't see how that somehow would contradict any possible feelings he could express for a male Shepard in ME3. The dialogue between Tali and a female Shepard leans heavily toward the possibility of romance if the writers wished. It would not be the same type of romance as a Tali with a male Shepard that begins in ME2, but you already said that you think having romances play out the same is monotonous and unnecessary.

You don't want someone who plays as a female Shepard to experience a romance with Tali. I get it. You played your games one way, interpreted the characters one way, and the thought that someone could play it and interpret it differently is somehow an offense to you in spite of the fact you don't have to play your game their way at all. Fine.

Maybe I'm making an assumption? <_< Oh, wait, you realized that.


You are really going to go there? It's not just the Tali romance. It's ALL of them. Quit trying to turn this on me as a Talimancer.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And once again, I am not against gay LIs, just changing characters.

The only thing that changes is that you learn something about a character that you didn't know before: that they are open to a homosexual relationship. You fear that's going to get tossed in your face, so you think it shouldn't exist.

Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Messing with people's posts? How mature. Are you still mad about the Samara joke? Because I don't see any other reason for your attitude.

I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of your opinion but I'm apparently immature. You've been bringing up that "joke" all night, you obviously still haven't got over a bunch of people calling you out for its crudeness.  Truthfully, it only makes everything you say on top of the hypocrisy hard to take seriously. 

Now that's stupid. This is the ONLY time I have brought that up.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And once again, I am not against gay LIs, just changing characters.

The only thing that changes is that you learn something about a character that you didn't know before: that they are open to a homosexual relationship. You fear that's going to get tossed in your face, so you think it shouldn't exist.

Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

[Praetor Knight]

Pacifien wrote...

The only thing that changes is that you learn something about a character that you didn't know before: that they are open to a homosexual relationship. You fear that's going to get tossed in your face, so you think it shouldn't exist.

Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Nonetheless, we may also learn that they are closed to such a relationship, what then?

[Lee337]

Pacifien wrote...

The only thing that changes is that you learn something about a character that you didn't know before: that they are open to a homosexual relationship. You fear that's going to get tossed in your face, so you think it shouldn't exist.

Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

This is OK if it applies to just one character, Kadian for example.
If after Kadian announces he's Bi, Thane says "Hey me too!" and then Jacob decides he wants a piece of the action and Zaheeds gone and lit romantic candles waiting for me... I think I'll just jump ship!

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
You don't want someone who plays as a female Shepard to experience a romance with Tali. I get it. You played your games one way, interpreted the characters one way, and the thought that someone could play it and interpret it differently is somehow an offense to you in spite of the fact you don't have to play your game their way at all. Fine.

You are really going to go there? It's not just the Tali romance. It's ALL of them. Quit trying to turn this on me as a Talimancer.

If we're talking about pre-existing love interests, that includes Tali. And quite frankly, she is one of two pre-existing romances that is most open to being turned into a same-sex romance for ME3 because the seeds are there in ME2. I know your love of the game is greatly tied to the Tali romance, and so, yes, your plea that the pre-existing love interests not be made homosexual options seems rather tainted by your expectations.

[GuardianAngel470]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
You don't want someone who plays as a female Shepard to experience a romance with Tali. I get it. You played your games one way, interpreted the characters one way, and the thought that someone could play it and interpret it differently is somehow an offense to you in spite of the fact you don't have to play your game their way at all. Fine.

You are really going to go there? It's not just the Tali romance. It's ALL of them. Quit trying to turn this on me as a Talimancer.

If we're talking about pre-existing love interests, that includes Tali. And quite frankly, she is one of two pre-existing romances that is most open to being turned into a same-sex romance for ME3 because the seeds are there in ME2. I know your love of the game is greatly tied to the Tali romance, and so, yes, your plea that the pre-existing love interests not be made homosexual options seems rather tainted by your expectations.

Ramirez, he's right. Of the current platonic romances, Tali's is the most supported with in-game dialog. That whole thing about linking suit environments, the lead up to the male romance, is said by Tali to Femshep.

[Pacifien]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

I don't know if you get what I mean. Like I said earlier, if my friend (male) was interested in me (male), and I'm straight, it would change things.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Now that's stupid. This is the ONLY time I have brought that up.

No, you brought it up several times and said I had an agenda against you ever since I started posting in this thread. 

My actual agenda is to show that not everyone agrees with your weak opinions and showing just how silly it is that you are okay with retconned straight Tali or Garrus but against retconned gay Ash/Kaidan/Thane whatever.  Thus I am here debating the issues. 

I haven't seen you do anything except say "I support her opinion!"

[Lee337]

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

[Lee337]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Now that's stupid. This is the ONLY time I have brought that up.

No, you brought it up several times and said I had an agenda against you ever since I started posting in this thread. 

My actual agenda is to show that not everyone agrees with your weak opinions and showing just how silly it is that you are okay with retconned straight Tali or Garrus but against retconned gay Ash/Kaidan/Thane whatever.  Thus I am here debating the issues. 

I haven't seen you do anything except say "I support her opinion!"

Well we've discussed our opinions a lot and I think they are clear enough, but are either of you able to comprimise with each other? There's no point just arguing all night/day because it's clear your opinions won't be swayed.