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[Ramirez Wolfen]

Lee337 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

THAT. And from what I hear, it's going ME2 style (ME3 in general, that is)

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I haven't seen you do anything except say "I support her opinion!"

You do know that I was posting here today before Paci joined in the convo?  I'm also continuing to see you state that change is bad unless it's Tali or Garrus we're talking about.

Changing anyone now I don't want.

[J. Finley]

Lee337 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

Have a very similar situation. One of my buddies is bi, but hasn't hit on me or anything since he knows I'm straight.

It would really suck if I couldn't talk to Todd anymore just because I'm not intersted in him sexually. He's one of my best friends.

If they do in fact add the same sex romances, I'm begging for it to seperate completely into a different branch of dialogue so I can avoid something like that and still continue building our friendship.

[Lee337]

rynluna wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Well we've discussed our opinions a lot and I think they are clear enough, but are either of you able to comprimise with each other? There's no point just arguing all night/day because it's clear your opinions won't be swayed.

I'd prefer if this topic were closed since the OP has weak statements that say LI's shouldn't be bi in ME3.  The title was meant to provoke controversy anyway and if anyone has a different opinion to him they are automatically a troll.  At least in the FFTL thread people are usually free to discuss ways s/s can be implemented for both sides of the fence to be comfortable.

Then don't focus all your efforts on arguing with him if that's how you feel. I believe I have been fair, as much as honest but you haven't talked about compromise, just arguing with Wolfen!

[Ramirez Wolfen]

rynluna wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Well we've discussed our opinions a lot and I think they are clear enough, but are either of you able to comprimise with each other? There's no point just arguing all night/day because it's clear your opinions won't be swayed.

I'd prefer if this topic were closed since the OP has weak statements that say LI's shouldn't be bi in ME3.  The title was meant to provoke controversy anyway and if anyone has a different opinion to him they are automatically a troll.  At least in the FFTL thread people are usually free to discuss ways s/s can be implemented for both sides of the fence to be comfortable.

Quite a few posts here would prove that I DON'T have weak statements. And if you feel that it should be closed, why are you even posting? Because you like to "debate"? That's a huge contradiction.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Lee337 wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Well we've discussed our opinions a lot and I think they are clear enough, but are either of you able to comprimise with each other? There's no point just arguing all night/day because it's clear your opinions won't be swayed.

I'd prefer if this topic were closed since the OP has weak statements that say LI's shouldn't be bi in ME3.  The title was meant to provoke controversy anyway and if anyone has a different opinion to him they are automatically a troll.  At least in the FFTL thread people are usually free to discuss ways s/s can be implemented for both sides of the fence to be comfortable.

Then don't focus all your efforts on arguing with him if that's how you feel. I believe I have been fair, as much as honest but you haven't talked about compromise, just arguing with Wolfen!

This.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Jayman1337 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

Have a very similar situation. One of my buddies is bi, but hasn't hit on me or anything since he knows I'm straight.

It would really suck if I couldn't talk to Todd anymore just because I'm not intersted in him sexually. He's one of my best friends.

If they do in fact add the same sex romances, I'm begging for it to seperate completely into a different branch of dialogue so I can avoid something like that and still continue building our friendship.

I have no problem with a friend being bi or gay. If they have a romantic interest in me, though, then it's different.

[jeweledleah]

Pacifen - Horison was a horrible piece of crap writing with Kaidan saying identical lines to both male and female Shepard regardless of the relationship status as long as you picked the right branches. how do I know? because I replayed that scene one time too many, since the first time I got it, I wanted to smack my Shepard for being an idiot. "its been a long time? how have you been?" or "you don't seem happy to see me? " they were very obviously setting you up for breakup and they were so "frugal" when writing those scenes, I'm amazed that they gave Kaidan his own armor and didn't just keep him in phoenix like they did in the opening scene, and never mind that he suddenly forgot that he's a sentinel and uses a weapon he's not supposed to be able to use.

if we use that scene as the proof of his attraction to male Shepard, then why didn't we see it in ME1? oh, are we back to homophobia? but I thought we established that ME universe is not homophobic? inconsistencies and bad writing galore. do you see why I'm not very keen on ME team writing in same sex romance for established LI's now? its not going to be done well, its going to be done sledge hammer style, if they do decide to add it in.

you say that they should take this as a challenge to prove that they can write it well? I'd like to see that happening, but I'm not holding my breath, for god's sakes we cannot get good friendship paths and with those you don't even have to worry about genders, you actually COULD safely write them exactly the same for both Shepards and yet they still managed to mess that up. I have a feeling that even pre existing relationships are going to get shoddy treatment, nvm adding in new facets.

am I pessimistic about ME teams ability to write relationships at this point? you betcha.

just to make it clear - I'm not against the concept of bisexual LI's and at this point I'm not even against the concept of taking existing LI's and expanding their repertoire. I just think that if it is done, it will be done horribly and I'd rather they concentrate on developing already existing relationships. Including fixing that mess, known as Horizon and separating Kashley Wilenko back into 2 very different and distinct characters. (not that I have much hope for resolution to that either - most likely, its just going to be waved away...like every other retcon)

were Tali and Garrus retconed? yes. and as much as I adore them both (especially Garrus who was with me through almost the entirety of ME1 on multiple Shepards), their romances just don't strike the same note with me as heck even Jacob, and poor Jacob really got screwed by the terrible "I'ma gonna molest you now" voice acting by Jennifer Hale (and then of course there's the priiiize line) but two wrongs don't make a right. a precedent of bad writing being added in anyways doesn't mean that they should add in even more bad writing.

so yes, I'm pessimistic at the prospect, given the precedent.

[GuardianAngel470]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I haven't seen you do anything except say "I support her opinion!"

You do know that I was posting here today before Paci joined in the convo?  I'm also continuing to see you state that change is bad unless it's Tali or Garrus we're talking about.

Have you stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, Ramirez isn't as good at conveying a point as you? That maybe, just maybe, that doesn't mean that his points are invalid?

I posted a much longer post explaining, with a prudent, non bisexual example, why making any existing romance a bisexual romance other than Tali would be a bad idea yet you never quoted or responded to it at all.

If you were doing anything other than responding to Ramirez as he stumbles to get his point across and attacking every little thing he said you'd see that it is a valid OPINION that he holds, as I hold and that he is entitled to it.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Lee337 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

Discovering someone's sexuality changes everything, no matter WHAT you find out, if it's different than your (often heteronormative) assumptions.

I have a friend who is a quiet, clean librarian who likes interior design and rare books. He looks and acts like Niles Crane. He is 100% straight. Nobody believes this. When one of his coworkers who had known him for years heard that he was straight, she literally refused to believe it for months and months. It wasn't until she saw him kissing his actual physical girlfriend on more than one occasion that she believed him.

This is the kind of reaction some people have to proposed sexualities of Mass Effect characters.

I have another friend. When we first met him, he was a ladies man. At parties you'd often see him snuggling on the couch with two women, an arm around either one. He would say flirty, sexual things to girls all the time. One of my friends thought he was a pig and hated him. A few months later, we learned that he was actually gay. Really gay. He just liked cuddling with people, and girls are more willing to cuddle. He likes saying idly flirtatious things to people, and women are less likely to punch you for it. But when it came to makeouts, BOYS ONLY please.

I have a cousin. For over a decade she dated only women. Then she met a man, fell in love, and got married. Totally out of character! Retcon!  Too many male players wanted her unlocked, so they totally ruined her as a strong lesbian character! 

In high school I listened to the Indigo Girls and wore Birkenstocks (yes, really.) I would lay in the same bed with female friends, watching anime about lesbians. But I've never actually dated a girl! So far, only dudes. Still, there are a lot of people who would have thought it was massively out-of-character for me to date a boy.

For me, a character suddenly (and possibly awkwardly) admitting that they have a taboo attraction (or one that is different from all evidence presented so far) isn't as earth-shaking as it seems to be for a lot of people here. I don't want all the existing LIs to be bi. But I was in the GSA: seeing someone who always gave all indications that they were straight admitting that they are bi but were afraid of revealing it because of the associated stigma? That's called Tuesday. Tuesday is for sharing.

A sudden revelation like that, or a "I don't usually go for X, but you're sort of changing my mind," kind of revelation (EG: Garrus is not into humans, but is into you) don't change a character for me. They're a form of character development. I know plenty of people for whom stuff like that has happened: "I don't usually date girls, but you're special. I don't usually date outside my race, but you're special. I don't usually date guys who are shorter than me, but you're special. I don't usually date Turians... etc." 

Now, it would seem unrealistic for me if ALL the ME LIs did it, or at least statistically unlikely.  But one or two coming out with a confession that their sexuality is different than what everyone has assumed all these years? There's nothing ret-con about that. You can know someone for decades and still get the totally wrong impression of their sexuality. This is especially true given the fact that humanity seems to still posess homophobia, especially given some of FemShep's posible reactions to Liara in ME1.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[J. Finley]

I have no problem with a friend being bi or gay. If they have a romantic interest in me, though, then it's different.

I hear ya. It would definitely make things awkward. 

[GuardianAngel470]

jeweledleah wrote...

Pacifen - Horison was a horrible piece of crap writing with Kaidan saying identical lines to both male and female Shepard regardless of the relationship status as long as you picked the right branches. how do I know? because I replayed that scene one time too many, since the first time I got it, I wanted to smack my Shepard for being an idiot. "its been a long time? how have you been?" or "you don't seem happy to see me? " they were very obviously setting you up for breakup and they were so "frugal" when writing those scenes, I'm amazed that they gave Kaidan his own armor and didn't just keep him in phoenix like they did in the opening scene, and never mind that he suddenly forgot that he's a sentinel and uses a weapon he's not supposed to be able to use.

if we use that scene as the proof of his attraction to male Shepard, then why didn't we see it in ME1? oh, are we back to homophobia? but I thought we established that ME universe is not homophobic? inconsistencies and bad writing galore. do you see why I'm not very keen on ME team writing in same sex romance for established LI's now? its not going to be done well, its going to be done sledge hammer style, if they do decide to add it in.

you say that they should take this as a challenge to prove that they can write it well? I'd like to see that happening, but I'm not holding my breath, for god's sakes we cannot get good friendship paths and with those you don't even have to worry about genders, you actually COULD safely write them exactly the same for both Shepards and yet they still managed to mess that up. I have a feeling that even pre existing relationships are going to get shoddy treatment, nvm adding in new facets.

am I pessimistic about ME teams ability to write relationships at this point? you betcha.

just to make it clear - I'm not against the concept of bisexual LI's and at this point I'm not even against the concept of taking existing LI's and expanding their repertoire. I just think that if it is done, it will be done horribly and I'd rather they concentrate on developing already existing relationships. Including fixing that mess, known as Horizon and separating Kashley Wilenko back into 2 very different and distinct characters. (not that I have much hope for resolution to that either - most likely, its just going to be waved away...like every other retcon)

were Tali and Garrus retconed? yes. and as much as I adore them both (especially Garrus who was with me through almost the entirety of ME1 on multiple Shepards), their romances just don't strike the same note with me as heck even Jacob, and poor Jacob really got screwed by the terrible "I'ma gonna molest you now" voice acting by Jennifer Hale (and then of course there's the priiiize line) but two wrongs don't make a right. a precedent of bad writing being added in anyways doesn't mean that they should add in even more bad writing.

so yes, I'm pessimistic at the prospect, given the precedent.

That's my main reason too. Bioware's track record (as I called it) is not very good.

[Lee337]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

Discovering someone's sexuality changes everything, no matter WHAT you find out, if it's different than your (often heteronormative) assumptions.

I have a friend who is a quiet, clean librarian who likes interior design and rare books. He looks and acts like Niles Crane. He is 100% straight. Nobody believes this. When one of his coworkers who had known him for years heard that he was straight, she literally refused to believe it for months and months. It wasn't until she saw him kissing his actual physical girlfriend on more than one occasion that she believed him.

This is the kind of reaction some people have to proposed sexualities of Mass Effect characters.

I have another friend. When we first met him, he was a ladies man. At parties you'd often see him snuggling on the couch with two women, an arm around either one. He would say flirty, sexual things to girls all the time. One of my friends thought he was a pig and hated him. A few months later, we learned that he was actually gay. Really gay. He just liked cuddling with people, and girls are more willing to cuddle. He likes saying idly flirtatious things to people, and women are less likely to punch you for it. But when it came to makeouts, BOYS ONLY please.

I have a cousin. For over a decade she dated only women. Then she met a man, fell in love, and got married. Totally out of character! Retcon!  Too many male players wanted her unlocked, so they totally ruined her as a strong lesbian character! 

In high school I listened to the Indigo Girls and wore Birkenstocks (yes, really.) I would lay in the same bed with female friends, watching anime about lesbians. But I've never actually dated a girl! So far, only dudes. Still, there are a lot of people who would have thought it was massively out-of-character for me to date a boy.

For me, a character suddenly (and possibly awkwardly) admitting that they have a taboo attraction (or one that is different from all evidence presented so far) isn't as earth-shaking as it seems to be for a lot of people here. I don't want all the existing LIs to be bi. But I was in the GSA: seeing someone who always gave all indications that they were straight admitting that they are bi but were afraid of revealing it because of the associated stigma? That's called Tuesday. Tuesday is for sharing.

A sudden revelation like that, or a "I don't usually go for X, but you're sort of changing my mind," kind of revelation (EG: Garrus is not into humans, but is into you) don't change a character for me. They're a form of character development. I know plenty of people for whom stuff like that has happened: "I don't usually date girls, but you're special. I don't usually date outside my race, but you're special. I don't usually date guys who are shorter than me, but you're special. I don't usually date Turians... etc." 

Now, it would seem unrealistic for me if ALL the ME LIs did it, or at least statistically unlikely.  But one or two coming out with a confession that their sexuality is different than what everyone has assumed all these years? There's nothing ret-con about that. You can know someone for decades and still get the totally wrong impression of their sexuality. This is especially true given the fact that humanity seems to still posess homophobia, especially given some of FemShep's posible reactions to Liara in ME1.

I don;t think any of those examples show how someone would change in thier actions towards you except the for occasional and expected suprise, unless the person who changes towards you is a extemist homophobe.

[2kgnsiika]

I agree with OP, but the whole point is moot.

There won't be any same sex romances in ME3, because obviously BW/EA don't want that.

[GuardianAngel470]

rynluna wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Have you stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, Ramirez isn't as good at conveying a point as you? That maybe, just maybe, that doesn't mean that his points are invalid?

I posted a much longer post explaining, with a prudent, non bisexual example, why making any existing romance a bisexual romance other than Tali would be a bad idea yet you never quoted or responded to it at all.

If you were doing anything other than responding to Ramirez as he stumbles to get his point across and attacking every little thing he said you'd see that it is a valid OPINION that he holds, as I hold and that he is entitled to it.

The post about your friend telling you he was gay and then that would change your friendship?  I responded to that.  I also responded to your post about the Liara changes as well.  Sorry if I didn't reply to every single post of yours or even his.  Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but if I don't agree with it, I might debate it as I have been doing all night in this public forum.

No, it was the straight friend who said he loved you.

EDIT: Ok, that was you, and in that case I find it strange that you missed my point. You recognize that my opinion is valid but you refute what Ramirez has to say in his point number 6 even though they are the SAME thing, I just took more words to say it and had more time to think it through.

As to your more recent post, that is also agreeing with what I said. You just described the exact outcome I did in the post you quoted by in slightly different wording.

I said that it would change the context of the relationship and you said "I guess I know what he wanted all along."

I said that I'd still take Garrus everywhere cuz he's damn good in a fight (guy speak for we're still friends) and you said "It would be beneath me to end the relationship because I'm gay and he's straight."

We're saying the same thing which is why I find it so strange that you disagree with Ramirez's 6th point.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 24 mars 2011 - 11:11 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Lee337 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Apparently, you're fine with gay LIs so long as you're given sufficient warning about it ahead of time as opposed to letting it become an issue after you've gotten to know a person.

Yes, because then it changes everything.

Judging someone by their sexuality first is not... a topic I should be discussing here.

In real life, it doesn't change much at all and I see no reason to judge people by their sexuality. I had a friend who told me he was bi and had feelings for me, which freaked me out. I said I didn't swing that way, he asked if I was ok with it, I said just don't go slapping my ass. We're still friends and his sexuality is not something that I think of unless it is specifically brought up.
In the game however, it depends on if you can still persue the frienship path or if being nice just leads to romance and they do ME2 style cut offs. that'd be awkward.

Discovering someone's sexuality changes everything, no matter WHAT you find out, if it's different than your (often heteronormative) assumptions.

I have a friend who is a quiet, clean librarian who likes interior design and rare books. He looks and acts like Niles Crane. He is 100% straight. Nobody believes this. When one of his coworkers who had known him for years heard that he was straight, she literally refused to believe it for months and months. It wasn't until she saw him kissing his actual physical girlfriend on more than one occasion that she believed him.

This is the kind of reaction some people have to proposed sexualities of Mass Effect characters.

I have another friend. When we first met him, he was a ladies man. At parties you'd often see him snuggling on the couch with two women, an arm around either one. He would say flirty, sexual things to girls all the time. One of my friends thought he was a pig and hated him. A few months later, we learned that he was actually gay. Really gay. He just liked cuddling with people, and girls are more willing to cuddle. He likes saying idly flirtatious things to people, and women are less likely to punch you for it. But when it came to makeouts, BOYS ONLY please.

I have a cousin. For over a decade she dated only women. Then she met a man, fell in love, and got married. Totally out of character! Retcon!  Too many male players wanted her unlocked, so they totally ruined her as a strong lesbian character! 

In high school I listened to the Indigo Girls and wore Birkenstocks (yes, really.) I would lay in the same bed with female friends, watching anime about lesbians. But I've never actually dated a girl! So far, only dudes. Still, there are a lot of people who would have thought it was massively out-of-character for me to date a boy.

For me, a character suddenly (and possibly awkwardly) admitting that they have a taboo attraction (or one that is different from all evidence presented so far) isn't as earth-shaking as it seems to be for a lot of people here. I don't want all the existing LIs to be bi. But I was in the GSA: seeing someone who always gave all indications that they were straight admitting that they are bi but were afraid of revealing it because of the associated stigma? That's called Tuesday. Tuesday is for sharing.

A sudden revelation like that, or a "I don't usually go for X, but you're sort of changing my mind," kind of revelation (EG: Garrus is not into humans, but is into you) don't change a character for me. They're a form of character development. I know plenty of people for whom stuff like that has happened: "I don't usually date girls, but you're special. I don't usually date outside my race, but you're special. I don't usually date guys who are shorter than me, but you're special. I don't usually date Turians... etc." 

Now, it would seem unrealistic for me if ALL the ME LIs did it, or at least statistically unlikely.  But one or two coming out with a confession that their sexuality is different than what everyone has assumed all these years? There's nothing ret-con about that. You can know someone for decades and still get the totally wrong impression of their sexuality. This is especially true given the fact that humanity seems to still posess homophobia, especially given some of FemShep's posible reactions to Liara in ME1.

I don;t think any of those examples show how someone would change in thier actions towards you except the for occasional and expected suprise, unless the person who changes towards you is a extemist homophobe.

Oh, these examples weren't meant to show that. They were sort of supporting your suggestion that discovering someone's sexuality without warning isn't a big thing, and that it can come up without warning without being "unrealistic" or "out of character." 

Basically "hasn't admitted they're gay or bi yet" is the default state for most people who are gay or bi. I'm saying that suddenly and without warning revealing a different-than-expected sexuality isn't bad character development. So I guess I'm agreeing with you? Hehe.

[J. Finley]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

I agree with OP, but the whole point is moot.

There won't be any same sex romances in ME3, because obviously BW/EA don't want that.

Are they worried about profits or mass market appeal?

I hope it's making sure the main storyline is as finished as possible. I prefer that to taking that time and using it on the romances.

[Lee337]

rynluna wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Then don't focus all your efforts on arguing with him if that's how you feel. I believe I have been fair, as much as honest but you haven't talked about compromise, just arguing with Wolfen!

There are two threads open concerning s/s romance.  A quality one and then this one with an original post that has the most asinine ideas.   As long as it stays open, I'm going to defend my views.  I'd love it if it would be locked but apparently if you hide behind the "I'm not homophobic" excuse and be a hypocrite, it can stay open.  So I have a need to argue my views.  I can't help but debate.

Simply staying in the thread to keep defending your view is pointless as we know your view. You view the other thread as a quality thread because it's more agreeable with your views. This one is simply based on being against rather than for, but it doesn't change the fact that without trying to reach a comprimise your aguements are just as stong as Wolfen and they are opinions. Neither of you is right. The only way forward is to work on a middle ground. You're just staying still.
As for the "I'm not homophobic/hypocrite excuse" part, you are quick to throw accusations but you aren't any better than Wolfen in this. You are just two different sides, and at least Wolfen has accepted that having a new character being gay or bi is acceptable to him. You've offered nothing.

[Lee337]

@ GeekGirl
Ah ok, the bit where you said "Discovering someone's sexuality changes everything, no matter WHAT you find out, if it's different than your (often heteronormative) assumptions." confused me!