1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Crash]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

You didn't listen to my reason, which isn't homophobic. The relationship would be different because he is wanting something ME that I could NEVER give him. It's not because he's gay, it's because he loves me and I don't love him that way.

Hmmmm this thread has doubled in length since I last saw it, still heated discussion as always! 

As I can still see Ramirez you seem to still be making mountains out of mole hills.  If he has the hots for you take it a flattery and turn him down.  Doesnt change him as a person.  Has he changed personality in those last 10 seconds?  No.   If you feel awkward as that quote suggests that your own doing.

Whats the big deal.   Im sure everone here has had a friend or a person they knew at some point in their life who came out gay or bi.  It never changed who they are unless you let it.  

Honestly I can easily see some Mass Effect characters catering for bi/homosexual crowd.   It still an OPTION you dont have to choose and several people would quite welcome openly.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Captain Crash wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

You didn't listen to my reason, which isn't homophobic. The relationship would be different because he is wanting something ME that I could NEVER give him. It's not because he's gay, it's because he loves me and I don't love him that way.

Hmmmm this thread has doubled in length since I last saw it, still heated discussion as always! 

As I can still see Ramirez you seem to still be making mountains out of mole hills.  If he has the hots for you take it a flattery and turn him down.  Doesnt change him as a person.  Has he changed personality in those last 10 seconds?  No.   If you feel awkward as that quote suggests that your own doing.

Whats the big deal.   Im sure everone here has had a friend or a person they knew at some point in their life who came out gay or bi.  It never changed who they are unless you let it.  

Honestly I can easily see some Mass Effect characters catering for bi/homosexual crowd.   It still an OPTION you dont have to choose and several people would quite welcome openly.

Not everyone takes it the same way. And what makes you think that a particular person would give up after one being rejected once?

[Centauri2002]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I'd like to add this to the discussion, since it seems to be relevant enough.

So, I've read about and heard stuff regarding the nature vs. nurture stuff with how individuals are. And what I've come to understand is that people are biologically one way or the other in their orientation, and then socially is where an individual can be in denial of their true self from outside pressures (self imposed pressures or from archaic cultural norms), meaning that the choice is denying it or not. And the more poignant moments I've come across are when an individual is so in denial that they are against that natural inclination. Case in point, anti-homosexual politicians engaging in encounters they are vehemently against.

So my question is it really a choice that some one has with orientation?

I personally don't know either way, which is why I'm asking what others think.

I'm not really going to address the nature vs. nurture argument here, as that's something a lot of people feel passionate and very strongly about. However, I don't think it matters that much for romance options in Mass Effect. The developers have the choice whether to make a character straight, gay, bisexual or not defined at all. In a way, they're both nature and nurture. That said, the player also has the choice to imagine their Shepard as any sexuality as well.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I know I know, generally one would actually have to read a thread to know what is going on. But this is over 60 pages and since I am who I am I know what happens in threads like this

Is this a no to any LI or just a no to the DA 2 treatment?

This is a no to changing current LIs. Me, personally, don't care if new characters in ME3 are gay or bi. And also the DA2 treatment (if you ask me)

[Lee337]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I'd like to add this to the discussion, since it seems to be relevant enough.

So, I've read about and heard stuff regarding the nature vs. nurture stuff with how individuals are. And what I've come to understand is that people are biologically one way or the other in their orientation, and then socially is where an individual can be in denial of their true self from outside pressures (self imposed pressures or from archaic cultural norms), meaning that the choice is denying it or not. And the more poignant moments I've come across are when an individual is so in denial that they are against that natural inclination. Case in point, anti-homosexual politicians engaging in encounters they are vehemently against.

So my question is it really a choice that some one has with orientation?

I personally don't know either way, which is why I'm asking what others think.

I'm not too sure of the site rules but I'm not to sure that this is allowed?

But I think that there's two types of choices, one is a deep subcouncious choice that can't be changed easily and one is an active choice. The subconcious choice is deciding your favourite colour, if you belive in god, what you feel like doing. The active choice is what you are going to do, saying something or not, that type of thing.

I think some people will believe that it is their subcounious choice, others that it is defined by nature. It's not something that can be proved, it's more of a belief of the individual.

And trying to prove it either way would just lead to heated arguements, which is why I think this type of topic isn't allowed here.

[Captain Crash]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Not everyone takes it the same way. And what makes you think that a particular person would give up after one being rejected once?

Your confusing real life to a video game.  


In Mass Effect you get a 5 point dialogue wheel.   You need to press one of those choices.  If you dont then nothing happens and no romance ensues and no followup unless you suggested it or want it.   That essentially happens with all romances in ME.      You dont want the romance you dont click the option. Easy.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Captain Crash wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Not everyone takes it the same way. And what makes you think that a particular person would give up after one being rejected once?

Your confusing real life to a video game.  


In Mass Effect you get a 5 point dialogue wheel.   You need to press one of those choices.  If you dont then nothing happens and no romance ensues and no followup unless you suggested it or want it.   That essentially happens with all romances in ME.      You dont want the romance you dont click the option. Easy.

I was talking about real life.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well

We possibly could have LI carryover from the first two games

Then with ME 3 either a new set for new players. Or old ones re-triggered for new players. Ip esronally would rather take new rather than Old. So that the old ones can get some carryover instead of being reset as it were.

So if I had it my way this would really be a non-issue

[Captain Crash]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I was talking about real life.

"LIs should NOT be bisexual in ME3!"


Thats the thread title isnt it?   Your letting your real life fears influence something that wont ever happen in a video game.

[Praetor Knight]

Well, I'm wondering because there have been many discussions that brushed across this and makes it seem that a character can easily change.

Kaidan able to be an interest for Sheploo is one often used and it made me think about the underlying issue.

At any rate, I'd rather add a new squad or ship mate for Shepard, and leave existing characters alone.

[Lee337]

rynluna wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Not everyone takes it the same way. And what makes you think that a particular person would give up after one being rejected once?

More baseless fears.  As far as ME goes, no has meant no so far.

Ah I get what you are on about when you say fears now.

I guess if the person who you rejected is truly your friend, then you should have enough trust that they will not keep making advances on you. Since I trust my friend enough that he will accept my wishes, I wouldn't be afraid he'd do it again. In this example, i wouldn't be homophobic in the defination that  centuari described.

But if i went to a bar, and, as has happened, as guy makes constant advances, this would make me feel very uneasy and, not sure how  to describe the feeling, it's not fear like fear of getting bitten by a dog, it's different. I'd be jumpy and be backing away, maybe angry. This would make me homophobic? Advances by a women wouldn't get this reaction except anger at the persistance.

By that logic, in Mass Effect, once you reject someone they give up, so at least I wouldn't be homophobic there.

[Centauri2002]

rynluna wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, I'm wondering because there have been many discussions that brushed across this and makes it seem that a character can easily change.

And why can't it be an easy change?  For most people, their sexuality doesn't encompass their entire being.  They don't prance around proclaiming their sexuality. 

This. Just because some people seem to go through behavioural changes related to sexuality, doesn't mean everyone does. It's just a part of who you are, it doesn't define you.

[Rivercurse]

Yep, not really interested in bisexual squadmates. Things work fine as they are in ME as far as I'm concerned.

[Praetor Knight]

rynluna wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, I'm wondering because there have been many discussions that brushed across this and makes it seem that a character can easily change.

And why can't it be an easy change?  For most people, their sexuality doesn't encompass their entire being.  They don't prance around proclaiming their sexuality. 

That's why I'm wondering.

The LGBT collegiate groups I'm familar with argue that people can't change who they really are, which is why I asked.

[Lee337]

centauri2002 wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, I'm wondering because there have been many discussions that brushed across this and makes it seem that a character can easily change.

And why can't it be an easy change?  For most people, their sexuality doesn't encompass their entire being.  They don't prance around proclaiming their sexuality. 

This. Just because some people seem to go through behavioural changes related to sexuality, doesn't mean everyone does. It's just a part of who you are, it doesn't define you.

I'm betting this is based on the gay male sterotype. It's not suprising, the gay only men I have met have fit in with the sterotypes to one degree or another. I'm sure there are some that don't too, but I haven't met any meyself which makes me thing that the sterotype resonably.  Gay  women and  bisexuals I have met however often don't. If we are talking about bisexual realtionships the gay stereotype can go out the window. I don't think establishing Kaidan as bisexual would make him act like Will or Jack from Will and Grace. Especially not Jack.

[Centauri2002]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, I'm wondering because there have been many discussions that brushed across this and makes it seem that a character can easily change.

And why can't it be an easy change?  For most people, their sexuality doesn't encompass their entire being.  They don't prance around proclaiming their sexuality. 

That's why I'm wondering.

The LGBT collegiate groups I'm familar with argue that people can't change who they really are, which is why I asked.

For argument's sake, lets say that I believe we can't change this part of ourselves. How would that help this debate though?

[Centauri2002]

Lee337 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

rynluna wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, I'm wondering because there have been many discussions that brushed across this and makes it seem that a character can easily change.

And why can't it be an easy change?  For most people, their sexuality doesn't encompass their entire being.  They don't prance around proclaiming their sexuality. 

This. Just because some people seem to go through behavioural changes related to sexuality, doesn't mean everyone does. It's just a part of who you are, it doesn't define you.

I'm betting this is based on the gay male sterotype. It's not suprising, the gay only men I have met have fit in with the sterotypes to one degree or another. I'm sure there are some that don't too, but I haven't met any meyself which makes me thing that the sterotype resonably.  Gay  women and  bisexuals I have met however often don't. If we are talking about bisexual realtionships the gay stereotype can go out the window. I don't think establishing Kaidan as bisexual would make him act like Will or Jack from Will and Grace. Especially not Jack.

Personally, I'm basing my opinions on knowledge of the gay community as a whole. A number of my lesbian friends have "butched up" once they've come out. If that's what they want to do, then fine, but it is balanced by those who haven't changed at all. I've seen certain mediums handle gay characters quite poorly in an attempt to "represent" the gay community, when all they're doing is stereotyping. I'd much rather watch/play a character who is defined by their actions but just happens to be gay than a gay character who just happens to be saving the world, if that makes sense.

But, yes, in Mass Effect's case, no behavioural changes are necessary at all. It would just be an extra facet of their character that was revealed, if that ever happens. As I've stated before, I'm happy with the options in the game as it is. >.>

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 mars 2011 - 12:39 .

[AerisBru]

Being homossexual or heterossexual plays a HUGE part on who we are. It's our identity. If a character is, depending on the gameplay, gay or straight it weakens him as a character. Period.

I'd like to see some characters who are ******, others straight, others bi. But NOT all bi - that's bizarre, uncompatible with reality - or worse, this "subjective" sexuality, being straight here and gay there.

Zevran was bissexual in DA:O and was a great character, because this trait was well explored. If everyone was bissexual the story - and even the characters who SHOULD be bissexual like him - would lose LOT of it's consistency.

(sorry for the worst english ever LOL)

[Centauri2002]

AerisBru wrote...

Being homossexual or heterossexual plays a HUGE part on who we are. It's our identity. If a character is, depending on the gameplay, gay or straight it weakens him as a character. Period.

I'd like to see some characters who are ******, others straight, others bi. But NOT all bi - that's bizarre, uncompatible with reality - or worse, this "subjective" sexuality, being straight here and gay there.

Zevran was bissexual in DA:O and was a great character, because this trait was well explored. If everyone was bissexual the story - and even the characters who SHOULD be bissexual like him - would lose LOT of it's consistency.

(sorry for the worst english ever LOL)

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. For some people it plays a large part, yes, but not for everyone. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 mars 2011 - 12:41 .

[Lee337]

centauri2002 wrote...

AerisBru wrote...

Being homossexual or heterossexual plays a HUGE part on who we are. It's our identity. If a character is, depending on the gameplay, gay or straight it weakens him as a character. Period.

I'd like to see some characters who are ******, others straight, others bi. But NOT all bi - that's bizarre, uncompatible with reality - or worse, this "subjective" sexuality, being straight here and gay there.

Zevran was bissexual in DA:O and was a great character, because this trait was well explored. If everyone was bissexual the story - and even the characters who SHOULD be bissexual like him - would lose LOT of it's consistency.

(sorry for the worst english ever LOL)

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. For some people it plays a large part, yes, but not for everyone. 

The point about Zevran being a great character because of his sexuality is a good one however, something that wouldn't occur if they were all bi. I don't think such a character would fit in with the Normandy crew though.

[Centauri2002]

Lee337 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

AerisBru wrote...

Being homossexual or heterossexual plays a HUGE part on who we are. It's our identity. If a character is, depending on the gameplay, gay or straight it weakens him as a character. Period.

I'd like to see some characters who are ******, others straight, others bi. But NOT all bi - that's bizarre, uncompatible with reality - or worse, this "subjective" sexuality, being straight here and gay there.

Zevran was bissexual in DA:O and was a great character, because this trait was well explored. If everyone was bissexual the story - and even the characters who SHOULD be bissexual like him - would lose LOT of it's consistency.

(sorry for the worst english ever LOL)

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. For some people it plays a large part, yes, but not for everyone. 

The point about Zevran being a great character because of his sexuality is a good one however, something that wouldn't occur if they were all bi. I don't think such a character would fit in with the Normandy crew though.

Yes, that's right. It suited his character, for sure. But I don't think the same could be said of many others. I, for one, believe Leliana would have made a good lesbian character since she already had the history there. Plus the chantry/church-guilt is a staple of a lot of lesbian fiction. >.> I agree that it wouldn't really fit into Mass Effect though.