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LIs should NOT be bisexual in ME3!


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#1651
AerisBru

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centauri2002 wrote...
I'm sorry, I have to disagree. For some people it plays a large part, yes, but not for everyone. 


Well, I didn't romance Zevran, but even if i didn't his free sexuality played a large part on who he was anyway. In my opinion, of course =)

Lee337 wrote...

The point about Zevran being a great character because of his sexuality is a good one however, something that wouldn't occur if they were all bi. I don't think such a character would fit in with the Normandy crew though.


Well, not exactly like him, but with similar views. I wouldn't mind someone like him in the crew, I think it can be done - it's difficult, but possible - and, well, we have perverts on the crew, someone is hanging around with varren LOL 

But, really, I could stand this idea of subjective sexuality if it was applied to NEW romanceable characters. The worst for me is to degenerate a character who CLEARLY wasn't bissexual from the start to become bissexual in the last game. 

#1652
Guest_Imperium Alpha_*

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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Captain Crash wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Not everyone takes it the same way. And what makes you think that a particular person would give up after one being rejected once?



Your confusing real life to a video game.  


In Mass Effect you get a 5 point dialogue wheel.   You need to press one of those choices.  If you dont then nothing happens and no romance ensues and no followup unless you suggested it or want it.   That essentially happens with all romances in ME.      You dont want the romance you dont click the option. Easy.



Oh..... this is crap, you have the same number of choice (with image to show you what happen) and even if I don't take flirt conversation they still want to rape my hawke ass :unsure:

And serously Anders after the first dialogue "I never felt that way to someone !" or something like that.... uhhh relax dude i don't even know you ! Go away !!!  You weirdo ! o.o
________
Noveria VI : *user alert loose contaminent in the decontamination chamber. Purge required*
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Don't do that kind of crap with ME1/ME2 character (if) returning or a will burn my PC :mellow::police:

#1653
Centauri2002

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AerisBru wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...
I'm sorry, I have to disagree. For some people it plays a large part, yes, but not for everyone. 


Well, I didn't romance Zevran, but even if i didn't his free sexuality played a large part on who he was anyway. In my opinion, of course =)


I was referring to sexuality, actually. :P Some people just don't consider their sexuality as a major defining feature in their lives. :)

#1654
Lee337

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AerisBru wrote...


But, really, I could stand this idea of subjective sexuality if it was applied to NEW romanceable characters. The worst for me is to degenerate a character who CLEARLY wasn't bissexual from the start to become bissexual in the last game. 



I agree they should be left alone,  but the 'clearly' you have there in capitals will be countered by those on the other side of the fence.

I don't think they will change anything for ME3, not sure about new characters but I doubt it. Maybe in future Bioware games. DA2 tested the waters, and hopefully if they go that way again, they can refine it.

#1655
Captain Crash

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Imperium Alpha wrote...

Oh..... this is crap, you have the same number of choice (with image to show you what happen) and even if I don't take flirt conversation they still want to rape my hawke ass :unsure:

And serously Anders after the first dialogue "I never felt that way to someone !" or something like that.... uhhh relax dude i don't even know you ! Go away !!!  You weirdo ! o.o
________
Noveria VI : *user alert loose contaminent in the decontamination chamber. Purge required*
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Don't do that kind of crap with ME1/ME2 character (if) returning or a will burn my PC :mellow::police:


Cant tell if serious!! :blink:

#1656
Lee337

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Captain Crash wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Oh..... this is crap, you have the same number of choice (with image to show you what happen) and even if I don't take flirt conversation they still want to rape my hawke ass :unsure:

And serously Anders after the first dialogue "I never felt that way to someone !" or something like that.... uhhh relax dude i don't even know you ! Go away !!!  You weirdo ! o.o
________
Noveria VI : *user alert loose contaminent in the decontamination chamber. Purge required*
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Don't do that kind of crap with ME1/ME2 character (if) returning or a will burn my PC :mellow::police:


Cant tell if serious!! :blink:




I too wanted Anders to go away. Before he announced his feelings for me however.

Crash, I take it you're refering to burning his PC? Who knows, there are craaaazy people in this world

#1657
AerisBru

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Lee337 wrote...
(...)
I agree they should be left alone,  but the 'clearly' you have there in capitals will be countered by those on the other side of the fence.


That was just to emphasize that the characters who were obviously straight shouldn't be changed (in the case of a gay character I would think the same about him). If there was a hint, just like Tali with FemShep...well, I would approve =)

#1658
Praetor Knight

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centauri2002 wrote...

For argument's sake, lets say that I believe we can't change this part of ourselves. How would that help this debate though?


OK, for argument's sake let's see where this goes in the context of this thread. And I believe what I'm going on about was also brought up earlier in this thread. =]

Anyway,

So, if one cannot change this part of themselves; and Shep and his crew experience several crisis situations with fellow shipmates, with whom they may have an attaction for, then it is possible for a relationship to develop between those individuals. As was the potential case in ME1 (Shepard was capable of pursuing a relationship or not).

So, if there was no pursuit of a relationship with a shipmate of the same gender, then it's reasonable to assume that the individuals were not interested in each other and/or did not have the orientation suitable for such a relationship to begin in the first place. Therefore the option is still available in the future, but unlikely between the individuals who did not try when the opportunity first presented itself. 

Then ME2 did not present another opportunity for Shepard to pursue a relationship with someone of the same gender under similar conditions of intense stress and danger. 

So with that not being the case in ME1 and ME2, for the particular relationship types, the question is, should existing characters then be able to pursue such relationships in a future crisis situation with the same individuals?

Here the matter then goes to how deep are the feelings, if there are any, and are there other factors preventing them from expressing their feelings to each other? How is a romance supposed to be defined? What about a relationship for that matter? What will it lead to, like lifetime bonding?

So from this point it can be argued that said characters were in denial of their feelings or that they acted naturally, true to who they really are in a time of crisis.

So with these issues in mind, it is still possible to have existing LI's pursue a relationship with Shepard of the same gender. But considering the type of actions that the individuals have committed and the type of bond one assumes they have created amoungst themselves, I imagine it would be better to introduce new characters to have the potential for such romantic relationships in the third game, then muck around with existing characters.

Garrus himself said that they are following Shepard through hell in ME2, so the chemistry they have built could then be a factor in the third game. Since a relationship was not pursued before, the pursuit of a relationship would then be even more awkward than the ME2 relationships, if they would suddenly be pursued in ME3.

And as with anything though it's seems a matter of perspective, I tried to keep it short. :blush:

#1659
jwalker

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Imperium Alpha wrote...


Oh..... this is crap, you have the same number of choice (with image to show you what happen) and even if I don't take flirt conversation they still want to rape my hawke ass :unsure:

And serously Anders after the first dialogue "I never felt that way to someone !" or something like that.... uhhh relax dude i don't even know you ! Go away !!!  You weirdo ! o.o
________
Noveria VI : *user alert loose contaminent in the decontamination chamber. Purge required*
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Don't do that kind of crap with ME1/ME2 character (if) returning or a will burn my PC :mellow::police:


I don't understand why a dude hitting on another dude is rape and a woman doing the same thing is not, but whatever.

Anyway, are you aware that if your male Hawke romances Isabela his ass will get raped ? Apparently, she has experience exploring a man's body with her thumb :lol:

#1660
Guest_Nyoka_*

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jwalker wrote...
I don't understand why a dude hitting on another dude is rape and a woman doing the same thing is not, but whatever.

Because men are raised thinking that being harassed by sexah women makes them 'winners'. It's a form of self-affirmation. Even if the concrete situation ends up being annoying, later he still will consider a good thing the fact that hawt women like him so much they can't resist their impulses towards him. They're sexah, right? That would mean their bar is probably set pretty high.

It would be rape if he were being harassed by fat, ugly women, because being liked by those don't skyrocket any self-affirmation levels.

Modifié par Nyoka, 24 mars 2011 - 01:55 .


#1661
CulturalGeekGirl

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I'm a writer. I've written for games before (NOT bioware RPGs). For me, this debate is about two factors: How many hours of work would it take for me to add a bisexual romance option, and could I maintain character consistency while doing so?

Note: I give time investment estimates for implementing a particular bisexual option. These are based on my knowledge of the NWN scripting system and other in-game content management applications. It is possible that it is MUCH more difficult and time-intensive (or that it is much less difficult and time intensive) to work within Bioware scriptiong system, so take these esptimates with a grain of salt.

How possible it is to add in a relationship without altering the character's personality depends on several factors: 

1 .How much does evidence of a character's predilictions spill outside of the romance dialogue trees?
2. How much change would be required within existing romantic dialogue trees? Is it possible to write dialogue that would be believable, given the opposite gender's dialogue as cannon?
3. Is it possible to avoid accidentally flirting with the person, if your Shepard is not interested?
4. What do we know about that particular race or species's normal sexuality? 

The easiest example here is Kaidan: 

1. Evidence of Kaidan's affection for Female Shepard spill out constantly throughout the game. A huge amount of dialogue would have to be rewritten, and it would change everythign players know about the character. A gay or bi Kaidan would have to exist in an alternate universe from the current Kaidan Malesheps experience, or he would have to have an entirely different romantic relationship with Maleshep than he does with Femshep. 

2.Kaidan compares you to other women, brings up past romances with women, and doesn't mention past romances with men. He mentions a girl he liked BY NAME. You can't just find and replace gender pronouns in his dialogue in order to adapt it. It would require a completely new rewrite.

3. It's easy not to show any interest in Kaidan as Femshep. You can either be curt and professional or actively discouraging. It would be easy to adapt this dialogue to maleshep, allowing him to shoot Kaidan down as well.

4. We know that most male humans are either straight or gay. Homosexuality is a minority, and bisexuality is an even smaller minority. Making Kaidan bisexual, given his established strong interest in women, would require a lot of explanation, and would be difficult to rationalize with known human sexuality.  Also, Kaidan has already established that he has trouble controlling his flirtations with people to whom he is attracted. Reconciling the existing differences between his interactions with male and female Shepard in the context of the understood parameters of human bisexuality would require a lot of additional explanation.

Time required to implement bisexual romance: A lot. 12+ hours of writing, several days of Voice Recording. Complete dialogue overhaul.
Possibility of maintaining character personality consistency given romantic and non-romantic playthroughs on different genders: Low. Extremely difficult. You learn that Kaidan likes Femshep early and often, it would be very difficult to avoid this information.

Now, let's look at Tali: 

1. Tali is equally friendly with both genders of Shepard. I am unaware of any dialogue outside her romance trees where she expresses a strong gender preference.

2. Tali's romantic dialogue trees refer to shared experiences with Shepard that created these romantic feelings. Since Tali has shared these experiences no matter what Shepard's gender is, it would be easy to find and replace gender pronouns and reuse the same dialogue with no other changes, similar to Liara.

3. No matter the gender, dialogue before flirtation with Tali is similar - the only change being that there is an option to explicitly start flirting if you are a male, while the dialogue ends for a female.  A romance could be added while still allowing those who wish to remain platonic with Tali to do so.

4. We know little about Quarian sexuality, other than the fact that it isn't especially taboo for them to have relationships with other species, and that they often use nerve stimulation to do so without risking infection.

Development time required to implement bisexual romance:  Less than an hour of writing. 1-2 hours of dialogue recording. 1 hour of data  entry.
Possibility of maintaining character personality consistency given romantic and non-romantic playthroughs on different genders: High. It is easy to keep Tali as a platonic friend. The only thing that changes is the romantic dialogue trees. It is also easy to know Tali without ever determining what her sexual preferences are.

This is why, from a writer-developer standpoint, I don't think ALL mass effect romances should be bi, but I think that certain characters could be made Bi at a minimal expense and with minimal story impact.

While composing this, I made little notes about dialogue possibility and time estimates for most other characters, from this same writer/developer standpoint. I can do this with any ME romance, if anyone has any specific questions.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 mars 2011 - 01:59 .


#1662
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Some yes, some not. Same as Jade Empire. I don't think having a past girlfriend prevents men from coming out years later, but I understand how the kind of additional resources that should be spent on this makes it unlikely to happen in the game. Oh well. I guess I would buy that.

Modifié par Nyoka, 24 mars 2011 - 02:04 .


#1663
LTD

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1600 replies? Seriously:D This is starting to look almost as scary as DA II boards used to. LI this LI that waah waah waah. You are getting all worked up about like 2 mins of exclusive dialogue and 20 sec long tame cutscene.
How and why people find this stuff SO terribly intereresting and relevant, I have no idea.Bioware should stop with RPGs and switch to day time soap TV. They certainly have the audience already.

Modifié par LTD, 24 mars 2011 - 02:03 .


#1664
Bourne Endeavor

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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

- Preference of the voice actor
- Different content in other aspects
- The ability to have a bisexual or homosexual Shepard
- They like those characters

And I reiterate once more. They are not required to be identical. In actuality, it is impossible they would be when you consider Miranda has not yet displayed an interest in Femshep. All it would require is Hale to record different lines. Admittedly, this does bode a conundrum from a financial aspect I had not previously considered. Since there has been no bisexual romance. This would have to designed from scratch and evidently have less overall depth and/or content in comparison to the heterosexual variety.

I believe those interest would be willing to accept that since this is added content to begin with. The question going forward is would BioWare being willing to shed a few extra dollars for the cut scenes?


What different content? I don't see things being different. Practically ALL the lines are the same already.


This was in response to if the current cast was bisexualized, which in and of itself is an incorrect terminology if Dragon Age 2 is referenced. The characters are typically straight or homosexual/lesbian, with the exception of Isabela, who is Kirkwall's bicycle, but I digress.

If the trigger I had previously suggested was activated and Miranda showed interest in Femshep. The content would have to be unique given there had been no previously defined relationship, whereas as Sheploo would have either pursued a romance with Miri - and thus a separate arc exists - or rejected her.

#1665
daxmeister

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The thing is - Kaidan, Ashley, and Miranda were all definately originally meant to be romanceable by both male and female Shepards. They recorded a decent amount of the dialogue for all of them (including the Paramore scene for Kaidan and Ash). So, I don't think there's any real "danger" (I use that word lightly) of Bioware making existing LI's bisexual in teh final game. It WOULD cheapen them, and Bioware have already shown that they feel it is unrealistic to have all LI's available regardless of gender.

So, really, I don't see any reason to worry. Yeah, a FemShep/Miranda or FemShep/Tali romance would have been great (and made sense, in the case of Tali), while a Garrus/Shepard romance would have been just as hilarious for males as it is for females...especially the "supportive waist" comment. Sorry, I'm getting distracted by how sexy Garrus' voice is...

Anyway. Yes. Erm. That's pretty much it. I lost my train of thought. Bye.

X

#1666
guacamayus

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LTD wrote...

1600 replies? Seriously:D This is starting to look almost as scary as DA II boards used to. LI this LI that waah waah waah. You are getting all worked up about like 2 mins of exclusive dialogue and 20 sec long tame cutscene.
How and why people find this stuff SO terribly intereresting and relevant, I have no idea.Bioware should stop with RPGs and switch to day time soap TV. They certainly have the audience already.


lol sad but true

#1667
Ramirez Wolfen

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This thread is still at the top? Damn.....

#1668
Siansonea

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I'm having the strangest sense of déjà vu...

#1669
Ramirez Wolfen

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Siansonea II wrote...

I'm having the strangest sense of déjà vu...

[Edit: Spam image removed. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 24 mars 2011 - 04:44 .


#1670
Ramirez Wolfen

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Even though it's been almost three days, this thread is getting old.........

#1671
coolair74

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Go back, back to top!

#1672
ciaweth

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Captain Crash wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Oh..... this is crap, you have the same number of choice (with image to show you what happen) and even if I don't take flirt conversation they still want to rape my hawke ass :unsure:

And serously Anders after the first dialogue "I never felt that way to someone !" or something like that.... uhhh relax dude i don't even know you ! Go away !!!  You weirdo ! o.o
________
Noveria VI : *user alert loose contaminent in the decontamination chamber. Purge required*
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Don't do that kind of crap with ME1/ME2 character (if) returning or a will burn my PC :mellow::police:


Cant tell if serious!! :blink:




If serious, he's probably the kind of dude who would say this to a woman who just got hit on by a guy she didn't like and was freaking out about it: 

"You're overreacting and getting too emotional about it.  Take it as a compliment, politely decline, and move on."

#1673
apotheosic

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm a writer. I've written for games before (NOT bioware RPGs). For me, this debate is about two factors: How many hours of work would it take for me to add a bisexual romance option, and could I maintain character consistency while doing so?

-snip-


This is the single best post in this thread. Thank you.
You are completely correct, and I agree with every point you make.

#1674
Siansonea

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Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm having the strangest sense of déjà vu...


[Edit: Spam image removed. - Pacifien]




Real mature, kid.

And herein lies the rub, for those of you just joining us. Many of you are trying to have an actual discussion about a controversial topic, and that would be fine if it wasn't taking place in a thread hosted by this bratty child. We're dealing with someone who confuses emotions with thoughts, and who uses emotional responses as "reasons" for very backward attitudes.

Modifié par Pacifien, 24 mars 2011 - 04:44 .


#1675
Merchant2006

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Modifié par Merchant2006, 24 mars 2011 - 04:19 .