1677 réponses à ce sujet

[NanQuan]

coolair74 wrote...

NanQuan wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

NanQuan wrote...

I don't understand the use of DA2 as an example of bisexual relationships. The characters aren't bisexual in DA2. Some characters change sexuality based on the player's profile. For example, If you play as male, Anders will be homosexual and if you play as female he will be heterosexual. Then the player has the OPTION to romance him. You however, are not forced to and he will not push the issue unless you pick to flirt with him. Hell, I flirted with him in DA2 just to keep my options open, but when I decided to say no thanks to Anders, he never pressed the issue again. There was just no longer any romantic tension. And I thought that worked just fine. The closest I ever got to unwanted advances in DA2 was from Isabella, even though I never chose to flirt with her, but come on - it's isabella. That's to be expected.

I also disagree that DA2 had cheaper romances than ME2. In my opinion, the only relationship between BOTH games that offers any real closure is Liara's and she is bisexual. I'm not saying the romances are bad, and there is variety so that people will be pleased, but I see no real difference between DA2 and ME1&2 romances with the exception of Liara (and only Liara if we count LotSB; without that it is the same as the others). And that's really only because her's is the most fleshed out and it doesn't hurt that it has the most content thus far.

My point is, that you shouldn't really be afraid of bisexual love interests in ME3 because if they are like DA2 (like you said) then they won't be bisexual. They'll change sexuality depending on your shep's gender. And if it's done like DA2, then they won't make advances at you unless you also make advances at them. So there won't be a problem because if you don't want Garrus or whoever to be homosexual, then he won't be because you won't flirt with him.

Liara is not bi, she is anything sexual.  She really isnt a she, more of a she/he that looks like a she but can be a he ,at least biologically, if the situation calls for it.

But you can use whatever logic you want.  Anders wasnt gay before and now he is all the sudden?  His Bio in Awakining said , he only wants a warm fire, a pretty girl and something to shoot lightning at. That is what we dont want for ME3.

HEAR ME BIOWARE!

Since we have not seen a species with more than two sexualities, i.e. male and female, then bisexual would still apply to Liara, regardless of whether she herself is monogendered. If you want to have all your bases covered, we can refer to her as omnisexual, but that seems pointless when bisexual will suffice.

As for Anders, I did not play Awakening, so if he was clearly heterosexual and it is something that defined him, as you suggest, then hey you found an inconsistency between the games. My point, however, was that Anders being heterosexual or homosexual depending on gender in no way detracted from my playthrough. Now, to be fair, I can see how in some cases, such as garrus, it has been suggested that he is straight and for him to suddenly not be would be weird.  And if you want to keep it that way, then you simply wouldn't flirt with him or make advances as a male shep, correct?  He also never indicates in the game that he is 1) into humans or 2) into femshep, but if you flirt with him then you can initiate a romance anyway. I didn't flirt with him with my femshep, so in my playthrough, Garrus isn't interested in shepard, even if she is a woman.  simple as that.

Actually Bi-sexual would not suffice since that implies 2 genders, what if there is another monosexual race? Or an asexual race that breed by sneezing out spores? Omni works a bit better.

Thing is , as ive stated 600 times, Shepard ISNT GAY. His character is not gay. In no way should that change now, even if you are gay, Shepard isnt, he isnt you , he is Shepard, strait man of liking the girls.

Let's be honest, Liara is female. Yes, yes, the asari are technically monogendered but if we're being honest they're really just a species of women. Seems pointless to kid ourselves about that but whatever, we can call Liara omnisexual. It doesn't change my previous point.

Can you refer me to a passage of the codex that states Shepard is heterosexual? Or a line of dialouge the bars him from being homosexual? I could easily make a gay maleshep. He might not get to romance anyone during ME1 or ME2, but he could certainly be gay if that's what I imagine him to be.  Also, what about femshep? She can certainly be homosexual. I would feel bad that guys don't have as many options as women do as to how to customize their shepards.

[Naltair]

mousestalker wrote...

Naltair wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Not one of my LI's in DA2 has been bisexual. They have all been exclusively interested in the sex my Hawke is. So what exactly is the problem?

Please explain this statement.

Which part needs explaining? Since I don't indulge in multiple partners' romps in computer games, all of my romances have been monogamous. All of my LI's have remained faithful to their Hawke/Warden/Shepard. Why should someone else's gameplay bother me in the slightest? If you want to mod your Shepard to misbehave in certain ways, feel free.

If you don't like same sex relationships, only court LI's of the opposite sex. If you don't like hetereosexual relationships, only court LI's of the same sex. Either way, why should it effect anyone else?

I am not asserting anything I am just saying that given the choices in DA2 it is heavily implied that they all go both ways.  Even Merril who is the least experienced makes that implication if not with Hawke then with party banter.  If you don't romance Isabela or Fenris they can hook up... Anders tells you he was with a man once and in Awakenings he hits on women.  Isabela, well that one is obvious.

I am glad your character is monogomous but the NPCs do not exist in a vacuum.

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

@coolair: The problem with your assertion that Shepard isn't gay is that it's not true. Shepard is at least bisexual. We see Fem!Shep fool around with Kelly and fall in love with Liara... and while we can argue all day long about whether Liara is a woman, there is enough dialogue from Fem!Shep and Kaidan to indicate that they, at least, consider it a lesbian relationship.

But that's Fem!Shep, I hear you say?

Yes, but that's my point. Male Shepard and Female Shepard *are the same character* You cannot make one bisexual and one straight. Either they both are at least willing to experiment with both genders (as they've established FemShep can) or they only like the opposite gender (in which case the Kelly and Liara relationships for FemShep should never have existed).

So maybe Male Shepard isn't gay, but he is at least bisexual. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that we must treat FemShep and MaleShep differently, which is wrong.

Yeah but he is not bi, he is strait, the script says so.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Where I live, people who are gay aren't that hard to recognize. btw, I live in a CITY. I know it may not be that way for everyone, but quite a few aren't hard to recognize.

So, you think you've seen them ALL? There's no chance that some people you don't get that 'vibe' from could be gay without you knowing it? You really think you're THAT perceptive? I have to say, I think you're wrong on this one. Sure, there are plenty of people who wear their sexuality on their sleeve, but if you think those people comprise the totality of homosexual or bisexual persons in your community, you are mistaken, plain and simple.

Try again, please. <_<

[Xilizhra]

This hardly matters; the Mass Effect team's retrograde attitude towards homosexual relationships means that even new LIs probably won't be bisexual.

[UsagiVindaloo]

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

@coolair: The problem with your assertion that Shepard isn't gay is that it's not true. Shepard is at least bisexual. We see Fem!Shep fool around with Kelly and fall in love with Liara... and while we can argue all day long about whether Liara is a woman, there is enough dialogue from Fem!Shep and Kaidan to indicate that they, at least, consider it a lesbian relationship.

But that's Fem!Shep, I hear you say?

Yes, but that's my point. Male Shepard and Female Shepard *are the same character* You cannot make one bisexual and one straight. Either they both are at least willing to experiment with both genders (as they've established FemShep can) or they only like the opposite gender (in which case the Kelly and Liara relationships for FemShep should never have existed).

So maybe Male Shepard isn't gay, but he is at least bisexual. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that we must treat FemShep and MaleShep differently, which is wrong.

Yeah but he is not bi, he is strait, the script says so.

So the script also says that Female Shepard is straight? I must have missed that, can I please have a link?

The script either has to say both are straight or both are bisexual. It cannot treat one differently than the other. If Male Shepard is straight, then Female Shepard is straight. If Female Shepard is bi, then Male Shepard is bi.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Not to mention that there IS such a thing as, for lack of a better word, "Shepard-sexual". There are plenty of people who are as straight as an arrow... except for that ONE person they fell for (and the same is true for gay people). If Garrus decided that he had a thing for Shepard, he would still be straight if that's how he self-identified... he'd just have a single exception to the rule. ;-)

I am pretty sure even if it is just an exception to act on said feelings and engage in sexual activity makes one at least bisexual, if not gay.

Not necessarily. Self-identification does trump all else. If a lesbian has a relationship with a man, but when prompted always says, "I am a lesbian," then she's a lesbian. If I have a relationship with a woman but identify as straight, then it's a sign of respect and courtesy to accept that identification and accept me as straight. The point is, we can't go running up to people and say, "You have done X or not done Y, therefore you are no longer allowed to be Z."

Self identification and perception are two different things.  I am not saying they are always gay or bi, but to engage in such acts will give the perception that you are X and/or Y.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[KainrycKarr]

I really don't care or mind one way or the other.

[kumquats]

mousestalker wrote...

Not one of my LI's in DA2 has been bisexual. They have all been exclusively interested in the sex my Hawke is. So what exactly is the problem?

QFT

I don't get the problem either.

[Naltair]

kumquats wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Not one of my LI's in DA2 has been bisexual. They have all been exclusively interested in the sex my Hawke is. So what exactly is the problem?

QFT

I don't get the problem either.

I don't mind this but evidence suggest that assertation is incorrect given the history of the characters involved.  It's a minor issue of little consequence.

[Xilizhra]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

@coolair: The problem with your assertion that Shepard isn't gay is that it's not true. Shepard is at least bisexual. We see Fem!Shep fool around with Kelly and fall in love with Liara... and while we can argue all day long about whether Liara is a woman, there is enough dialogue from Fem!Shep and Kaidan to indicate that they, at least, consider it a lesbian relationship.

But that's Fem!Shep, I hear you say?

Yes, but that's my point. Male Shepard and Female Shepard *are the same character* You cannot make one bisexual and one straight. Either they both are at least willing to experiment with both genders (as they've established FemShep can) or they only like the opposite gender (in which case the Kelly and Liara relationships for FemShep should never have existed).

So maybe Male Shepard isn't gay, but he is at least bisexual. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that we must treat FemShep and MaleShep differently, which is wrong.

Yeah but he is not bi, he is strait, the script says so.

So the script also says that Female Shepard is straight? I must have missed that, can I please have a link?

The script either has to say both are straight or both are bisexual. It cannot treat one differently than the other. If Male Shepard is straight, then Female Shepard is straight. If Female Shepard is bi, then Male Shepard is bi.

I think the script says that Liara isn't really a woman so it doesn't count, and Kelly was never a serious relationship or something so that doesn't count either.

The script, in short, handles this terribly.

[coolair74]

Actually Bi-sexual would not suffice since that implies 2 genders, what if there is another monosexual race? Or an asexual race that breed by sneezing out spores? Omni works a bit better.

Thing is , as ive stated 600 times, Shepard ISNT GAY. His character is not gay. In no way should that change now, even if you are gay, Shepard isnt, he isnt you , he is Shepard, strait man of liking the girls.

Let's be honest, Liara is female. Yes, yes, the asari are technically monogendered but if we're being honest they're really just a species of women. Seems pointless to kid ourselves about that but whatever, we can call Liara omnisexual. It doesn't change my previous point.

Can you refer me to a passage of the codex that states Shepard is heterosexual? Or a line of dialouge the bars him from being homosexual? I could easily make a gay maleshep. He might not get to romance anyone during ME1 or ME2, but he could certainly be gay if that's what I imagine him to be.  Also, what about femshep? She can certainly be homosexual. I would feel bad that guys don't have as many options as women do as to how to customize their shepards.

Can you refer me to a passage of the codex that states Shepard is ******/bisexual?

Lets just look at the facts, he likes girls, all the LI are girls. He talks to men like a strait man would, he has plutonic conversations but is endearing to his male shipmates. He has the option to tip strippers that are either Asari or female human.

THat is really all we to go on, so given this information , its a normal assumption that he would be strait.

Also, you can indeed customize Shepard, his appearance and his class/loadouts  and they give a brief choice of a background.  Just like any actor you are required to run the script as it is written.

Modifié par coolair74, 22 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[Naltair]

Your Shepard is not my Shepard.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Not to mention that there IS such a thing as, for lack of a better word, "Shepard-sexual". There are plenty of people who are as straight as an arrow... except for that ONE person they fell for (and the same is true for gay people). If Garrus decided that he had a thing for Shepard, he would still be straight if that's how he self-identified... he'd just have a single exception to the rule. ;-)

I am pretty sure even if it is just an exception to act on said feelings and engage in sexual activity makes one at least bisexual, if not gay.

Not necessarily. Self-identification does trump all else. If a lesbian has a relationship with a man, but when prompted always says, "I am a lesbian," then she's a lesbian. If I have a relationship with a woman but identify as straight, then it's a sign of respect and courtesy to accept that identification and accept me as straight. The point is, we can't go running up to people and say, "You have done X or not done Y, therefore you are no longer allowed to be Z."

Self identification and perception are two different things.  I am not saying they are always gay or bi, but to engage in such acts will give the perception that you are X and/or Y.

Okay, that I will grant you; perception is flawed, but it is what it is. But then we get into a whole argument about perception as well. Some people say that Tali has no interest in a female Shepard, to which others (myself included) might say, "Which game have you been playing?" For Tali, Garrus and Jack, there have at least been seeds planted that could easily prove to be evidence for bisexual leanings towards Shepard (or, in the case of Jack, possibly just vague bisexual leanings that don't include Shepard). We also don't know what characters have been hiding. Kaidan may have wanted to get in M!Shep's pants for two games now, but because he didn't want, well, the sorts of heckling that this thread has revealed ("Holy crap, Kaidan, your character is ruined!") he hasn't said anything. Who knows?

[hawat333]

I do agree. They should be as they are.
First off, Shepard is straight.
We don't even need to go further than that. He/She is an already established character, who is straight. It would a huge coherency issue to satisfy the wish of a minor group while making the larger part of player feeling uncomfortable.

On the other hand, even DA2's "not forced" bisexual relationships are awkward. There are hints and signs everywhere with Anders for example, and I pretty much found it disturbing.

The asari is another thing (although I've only pursued a romance with Liara on an experimental, male character which I use to test what happens when I choose option which I haven't on any of my other chars); as their role in the mating ritual is strengthened by the codex. Even then, I'm not a fan of the FemShep Liara romance. But at least there is a sentiment, that Asari aren't male or female. (It's a serious design issue that they resemble female this much, in a sci-fi I expected some more sophisticated imagination. Ok, I get the reason, blue alien chicks are hot. Sigh. We'd be better off with Alastair Reynolds designing the species)

But again, it's clear and simple: Shepard is straight.
We can have a ******/bisexual squadmate, companion, I'm not against it, I even have a two friends, but don't make the Love Interests.

[AwesomeAuger]

How about they release a DLC character with Mass Effect 3 that can be bi? That way us that want a straight Shep with a straight squad are satisfied, and those who want a bi Shep have an option in some DLC.

BioWare gets some extra cash, straights aren't disturbed by gay squad members, and bisexuals get an option to have a bisexual squad member.

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

@coolair: The problem with your assertion that Shepard isn't gay is that it's not true. Shepard is at least bisexual. We see Fem!Shep fool around with Kelly and fall in love with Liara... and while we can argue all day long about whether Liara is a woman, there is enough dialogue from Fem!Shep and Kaidan to indicate that they, at least, consider it a lesbian relationship.

But that's Fem!Shep, I hear you say?

Yes, but that's my point. Male Shepard and Female Shepard *are the same character* You cannot make one bisexual and one straight. Either they both are at least willing to experiment with both genders (as they've established FemShep can) or they only like the opposite gender (in which case the Kelly and Liara relationships for FemShep should never have existed).

So maybe Male Shepard isn't gay, but he is at least bisexual. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that we must treat FemShep and MaleShep differently, which is wrong.

Yeah but he is not bi, he is strait, the script says so.

So the script also says that Female Shepard is straight? I must have missed that, can I please have a link?

The script either has to say both are straight or both are bisexual. It cannot treat one differently than the other. If Male Shepard is straight, then Female Shepard is straight. If Female Shepard is bi, then Male Shepard is bi.

Since the true Shepard is male, Im always referancing the male Shapard.  Ill never play the game as femshep because that was thrown in to give the girls a heroin.  Since every single ad for the game shows Male Shepard with the default face, that is the real Shapard. So no they arnt the same toon.

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I am glad your character is monogomous but the NPCs do not exist in a vacuum.

I have repeated this several times already, but oh well. The NPCs live in the mass effect universe, which is different in each profile. In one profile, the council is dead, In another profile, Wrex is dead. In another profile, you recruited Garrus and romanced Kaidan. In another profile, you didn't.

Different profiles, different universes.

Why you can have a profile where Kaidan is heterosexual but gay men can't have a profile where Kaidan is gay? His sexual orientation is not what defines him. His character is defined by his personality and background. Even if there were no romance at all in the Mass Effect series, Kaidan would still be recognizable as Kaidan.

My question again is how do you impliment this without making every character open to every orientation?  That is the part that I really don't like, I really do think some choices should matter.  Gender being one of them.  The world should treat you differently based on Gender and that should be conssitent from universe to universe.

In fact sexuality plays a large part in how we percieve people, sexuality is a hugely important factor in our lives.  Sex is everywhere.  With that said, what is wrong with some people not liking Shepard based on gender, I am not saying there should not be bisexual/gay choices I am just saying making every choice available makes everything the same choice.

[AwesomeAuger]

Since the true Shepard is male, Im always referancing the male Shapard.  Ill never play the game as femshep because that was thrown in to give the girls a heroin.  Since every single ad for the game shows Male Shepard with the default face, that is the real Shapard. So no they arnt the same toon.
[/quote]

This is correct.

[coolair74]

hawat333 wrote...

I do agree. They should be as they are.
First off, Shepard is straight.
We don't even need to go further than that. He/She is an already established character, who is straight. It would a huge coherency issue to satisfy the wish of a minor group while making the larger part of player feeling uncomfortable.

On the other hand, even DA2's "not forced" bisexual relationships are awkward. There are hints and signs everywhere with Anders for example, and I pretty much found it disturbing.

The asari is another thing (although I've only pursued a romance with Liara on an experimental, male character which I use to test what happens when I choose option which I haven't on any of my other chars); as their role in the mating ritual is strengthened by the codex. Even then, I'm not a fan of the FemShep Liara romance. But at least there is a sentiment, that Asari aren't male or female. (It's a serious design issue that they resemble female this much, in a sci-fi I expected some more sophisticated imagination. Ok, I get the reason, blue alien chicks are hot. Sigh. We'd be better off with Alastair Reynolds designing the species)

But again, it's clear and simple: Shepard is straight.
We can have a ******/bisexual squadmate, companion, I'm not against it, I even have a two friends, but don't make the Love Interests.

OMG finally someone that gets it!  Lets go have mansex!

I think ppl get confused about this game. This is an interactive movie more than it is a RPG. You can Roleplay , but under certain perameters.  This isnt DA:O , this isnt your toon, youre just borrowing him to experiance the game through his eyes and although you do make choices, thats with the world at large and really has nothing to do with Shepards devolpment, since he is already developed.

Modifié par coolair74, 22 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

coolair74 wrote...

Actually Bi-sexual would not suffice since that implies 2 genders, what if there is another monosexual race? Or an asexual race that breed by sneezing out spores? Omni works a bit better.

Thing is , as ive stated 600 times, Shepard ISNT GAY. His character is not gay. In no way should that change now, even if you are gay, Shepard isnt, he isnt you , he is Shepard, strait man of liking the girls.

Let's be honest, Liara is female. Yes, yes, the asari are technically monogendered but if we're being honest they're really just a species of women. Seems pointless to kid ourselves about that but whatever, we can call Liara omnisexual. It doesn't change my previous point.

Can you refer me to a passage of the codex that states Shepard is heterosexual? Or a line of dialouge the bars him from being homosexual? I could easily make a gay maleshep. He might not get to romance anyone during ME1 or ME2, but he could certainly be gay if that's what I imagine him to be.  Also, what about femshep? She can certainly be homosexual. I would feel bad that guys don't have as many options as women do as to how to customize their shepards.

Can you refer me to a passage of the codex that states Shepard is ******/bisexual?

Lets just look at the facts, he likes girls, all the LI are girls. He talks to men like a strait man would, he has plutonic conversations but is endearing to his male shipmates. He has the option to tip strippers that are either Asari or female human.

THat is really all we to go on, so given this information , its a normal assumption that he would be strait.

Also, you can indeed customize Shepard, his appearance and his class/loadouts  and they give a brief choice of a background.  Just like any actor you are required to run the script as it is written.

Shepard isn't even a "he."

[UsagiVindaloo]

Nyoka wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I am glad your character is monogomous but the NPCs do not exist in a vacuum.

I have repeated this several times already, but oh well. The NPCs live in the mass effect universe, which is different in each profile. In one profile, the council is dead, In another profile, Wrex is dead. In another profile, you recruited Garrus and romanced Kaidan. In another profile, you didn't.

Different profiles, different universes.

Why you can have a profile where Kaidan is heterosexual but gay men can't have a profile where Kaidan is gay? His sexual orientation is not what defines him. His character is defined by his personality and background. Even if there were no romance at all in the Mass Effect series, Kaidan would still be recognizable as Kaidan.

This is an interesting way to look at things... not sure I entirely share this perspective, but it certainly is a nice way to think of it.

It's like Schrodinger's sexuality. While the game is in the box (or the new game creation screen is up), characters exist in a quantum state of gay or straight. Only when the box is opened/new game is created do we know which they are.

Oh my god, I just attempted to (badly) connect Schrodinger's Cat to Mass Effect LIs. I AM A GIANT NERD.

[kumquats]

Naltair wrote...

kumquats wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Not one of my LI's in DA2 has been bisexual. They have all been exclusively interested in the sex my Hawke is. So what exactly is the problem?

QFT

I don't get the problem either.

I don't mind this but evidence suggest that assertation is incorrect given the history of the characters involved.  It's a minor issue of little consequence.

Your absolutely right. The main thing is, I don't get the problem.
You have your final save for ME3, with your LI. So why be annoyed if there are more options later on.
I don't get it.

[Thompson family]

183 responses in three hours. Amazing.

OK. Let me get this straight (Pun intended):

Shep can f*** another species -- blue girls with tentacles for hair or immune deficient girls who've just lost their daddy and when the romp may kill them for maleSheps, or turians, drell, or aforemention blue girls for femSheps — and nobody kicks up a fuss. But we're not supposed to cross the gender line,

Uh, right. Signing off now, but not before I hope everybody on this thread who hasn't found love yet will find it and hang onto it for dear life, wherever they find it.