24 réponses à ce sujet

[BobWalt]

So far I am not happy with the choices or events in DA2.  So far my character has had her sister die and her mother die after being mutilated.  I am not given the dialog choices I think would be the best, nor am I rewarded for coming up with peaceful solutions.  Now I find that in the upcoming events I will be forced into even more troubling choices.  Games should entertain and leave us feeling good about ourselves not leave us feeling dirty and bitter.  I think we all have had too many too many things like that happen in our real lives to need to encounter it in our fantasies.

Bob

[Taleroth]

I don't agree with your position, but I can agree with your inspiration. Fantasy as a genre is not necessarily wish fulfillment. Video games and RPGs should not be that exclusively, either. They can, and should on occasion, be an outlet for intellectually or emotionally challenging concepts.

However, if in attempting to explore those challenges they badly contrive circumstance and deny reasonable choices to force the plot along the desired, some failure has been incurred. If you want to make a choice in pursuit of an ideal outcome, you should be allowed to try. And not forced to pursue ends contrary to that wish, as Act 3 of this game seems to delight in doing.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[Talvrae]

That's why Bioware call Dragon Age "DARK Fantaisy"
IT's not a realm of fluffy buny and all end good

[BobWalt]

I don't remember any fluffy bunnies in Baldur's Gate, Morrowwind, Gothic 2 or 3, or Oblivion. I hear there was a killer bunny in Dragon Knight Saga but I never ran across it, A fantasy can be dark but not depressing.

Bob

[SonOfHades]

I think the game fits like a Greek tragedy when it comes to a story-line. Which I found interesting but the dialogue choices where lacking.

[AllThatJazz]

It did say in the lead up/trailers etc to DA2 that by the time the game ends, the world is on the brink of war. I would say that the events leading up to war really do have to be somewhat depressing because, well, they lead to war.

I also think there are some fantastically bright moments (for me Aveline's personal quest was one of these) and I appreciate these moments of levity more just because they are so surrounded by grimness.

Oh, and if you want the entire game to seem less grimdark, take Varric with you. Everywhere.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 22 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[BobWalt]

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

[Beerfish]

I agree to a point with the op. I don't mind having bad things happen in a game, some of them can add to the story line and or the tension however there are 'absolute can't win' moments and even large parts of the story are like that. My 2nd play through is going to be a whole lot more enjoyable as I am playing a nasty out for myself and only those close to me kind of character.

[BobWalt]

AllThatJazz wrote...

It did say in the lead up/trailers etc to DA2 that by the time the game ends, the world is on the brink of war. I would say that the events leading up to war really do have to be somewhat depressing because, well, they lead to war.

I also think there are some fantastically bright moments (for me Aveline's personal quest was one of these) and I appreciate these moments of levity more just because they are so surrounded by grimness.

Oh, and if you want the entire game to seem less grimdark, take Varric with you. Everywhere.

I don't mind the dark setting but I do mind being forced into stupid and counter productive choices.

Bob

[AllThatJazz]

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

[Taleroth]

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

My understanding is that basically the writers felt that it would be more dramatic.  Why choice must be sacrificed for drama is a question I would hesitate to speculate upon.  But I do feel the need for drama tends closer to All My Children, not A Game of Thrones.

AllThatJazz wrote...

One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

That's cool.  That's respectable.  That's great, even.  The problem for me is when player agency is simply omitted.  In Act 1, some fundamentalist maniac tries to get me killed and start a war.  The player is given no choice in how to respond to this action. We stand between her and the exit and she procedes to mock our impotence to do what we naturally wish.

I'm not even saying that the player should have been allowed to prevent Act 2.  But, Act 2 could have easily been done by other agents, not by denying mine.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 mars 2011 - 03:18 .

[Strykerwolf83]

Let's make a quick list of major character flaws that had direct line cause in this game. I can analyze them for you if you really like.

Isabela: Greed.
Merrill: misguided good intentions
Fenris: Blind Hatred
Anders: Blind Hatred, Hubris, Zealotry
Meredith: Zealotry, Ego
Carver: Jealousy, Inferiority Complex
Bartrand: Greed

Not a complete list, but you get the idea. There is plenty of basis in the game for it to be a tragedy. Bartrand alone is a direct line that has a hand in causing most of the issues that happen in act 3, simply because of the stupic Idol.

That being said, there are entirely too many moments where you are trapped into going a route you don't want to. Too many black and white choices when there should be a grey one.

[BobWalt]

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

[AllThatJazz]

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

Which ones specifically? If you mean about Bethany, then to a certain extent you can make a common sense choice, or at least a sensitive one that ends with her not dying. I wanted to take her to the Deep Roads, but I decided not to because my mum begged. As it turns out, this was a better choice than taking her with me.

[Rawke]

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

Which ones specifically? If you mean about Bethany, then to a certain extent you can make a common sense choice, or at least a sensitive one that ends with her not dying. I wanted to take her to the Deep Roads, but I decided not to because my mum begged. As it turns out, this was a better choice than taking her with me.

And even if you decide to take her, if you make the logic choice of taking Anders with you, too (he's a healer AND a former grey warden AND he's the one who gave you the necessary maps in the first place) she doesn't have to die either.

[dreman9999]

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

Ok then, what are these common sense choices you want to make?

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 mars 2011 - 03:24 .

[Morning808]

Strykerwolf83 wrote...

Let's make a quick list of major character flaws that had direct line cause in this game. I can analyze them for you if you really like.

Isabela: Greed.
Merrill: misguided good intentions
Fenris: Blind Hatred
Anders: Blind Hatred, Hubris, Zealotry
Meredith: Zealotry, Ego, Blind Hatred
Carver: Jealousy, Inferiority Complex
Bartrand: Greed

Not a complete list, but you get the idea. There is plenty of basis in the game for it to be a tragedy. Bartrand alone is a direct line that has a hand in causing most of the issues that happen in act 3, simply because of the stupic Idol.

That being said, there are entirely too many moments where you are trapped into going a route you don't want to. Too many black and white choices when there should be a grey one.

I don't think he has blind hatred untill Justice takes over, I think his hate for them is well placed.

I added Blind Hatred to Meredith because come on she wants all mages lockd up or died because of her sister

[Siansonea]

I actually didn't mind some of the jarring events, like the untimely deaths of Hawke's sibling in the prologue and then the death of Leandra later (Hawke was too busy to micromanage Mum's affairs and protect her from the killer). What I didn't like was when the game decided You Will Have Combat Here, regardless of which side of the Mage/Templar divide you are on, and regardless of Hawke's diplomacy. In the run-up to the final mission at the end, my Hawke was attacked by several waves of mages, even though she SIDED with the mages, and even told Orsino that, and she saunters up to them with a big ol' mage staff strapped to her back. And she's with Anders. And don't get me started on how inevitable the fights with Orsino and Meredith are, you should be forced to battle the one whose side you did not pick, but you shouldn't have to fight your ally just because the game says You Will Have Combat Here. Seriously, Orsino seems to be really reasonable and level-headed all the way up until the few seconds before he decides to become a Boss Monster. And then there's combat, what a grind that is. I do not enjoy combat in games, I just want to get through it as quickly as possible. DA2 doesn't give you that option: you have to become an expert in tactics and resource management in order to survive the game's boss fights and even some of the skirmishes. If I never see another Rage Demon again it'll be too soon...

All that said though, I did enjoy the game quite a bit.

[BobWalt]

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

Which ones specifically? If you mean about Bethany, then to a certain extent you can make a common sense choice, or at least a sensitive one that ends with her not dying. I wanted to take her to the Deep Roads, but I decided not to because my mum begged. As it turns out, this was a better choice than taking her with me.

Now we are rewriting the game but there are many times in all three acts where the story could have gone in a different and more appealing direction if Hawke could have made a different choice.

Bob

[Arppis]

This is how it should be! I love the fact that you can't know for sure who is going to die and who is going to live. How the story will end and stuff like that! I just wish the game would be as dark as manga called "Berserk" was. That comic is awesome!

[BobWalt]

Arppis wrote...

This is how it should be! I love the fact that you can't know for sure who is going to die and who is going to live. How the story will end and stuff like that! I just wish the game would be as dark as manga called "Berserk" was. That comic is awesome!

No comment.

Bob

[AllThatJazz]

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

Which ones specifically? If you mean about Bethany, then to a certain extent you can make a common sense choice, or at least a sensitive one that ends with her not dying. I wanted to take her to the Deep Roads, but I decided not to because my mum begged. As it turns out, this was a better choice than taking her with me.

Now we are rewriting the game but there are many times in all three acts where the story could have gone in a different and more appealing direction if Hawke could have made a different choice.

Bob

Well that's true, but only in as much as it's true of any game. I mean in Origins, I thought it would have been perfectly reasonable for my female Cousland (or even Fergus!) to be able to rule Ferelden alone (if Alistair either renounced the throne or died) - after all, the Couslands were second only to the Theirin in terms of noble ancestry - why should the commoner widow of the former king and daughter of a traitor sit on the throne when the Hero of Ferelden and her family have a valid claim? But that choice wasn't offered at the Landsmeet.

To the point above yours, I agree. The endgame, where I finish up fighting everyone no matter who I side with is annoying; but I guess it's just an illustration of how far things have spun out of control by this point.

[Arppis]

BobWalt wrote...

Arppis wrote...

This is how it should be! I love the fact that you can't know for sure who is going to die and who is going to live. How the story will end and stuff like that! I just wish the game would be as dark as manga called "Berserk" was. That comic is awesome!

No comment.

Bob

If you haven't seen it, I reccomend reading the manga. It's actualy pretty good. I am not saying that Dragon Age should be like japanese RPG's, but I am saying that I wish it had the darkness and the grittyness of the Berserk. The story is multilayered and very adult.

[Strykerwolf83]

Morning808 wrote...

Strykerwolf83 wrote...

Let's make a quick list of major character flaws that had direct line cause in this game. I can analyze them for you if you really like.

Isabela: Greed.
Merrill: misguided good intentions
Fenris: Blind Hatred
Anders: Blind Hatred, Hubris, Zealotry
Meredith: Zealotry, Ego, Blind Hatred
Carver: Jealousy, Inferiority Complex
Bartrand: Greed

Not a complete list, but you get the idea. There is plenty of basis in the game for it to be a tragedy. Bartrand alone is a direct line that has a hand in causing most of the issues that happen in act 3, simply because of the stupic Idol.

That being said, there are entirely too many moments where you are trapped into going a route you don't want to. Too many black and white choices when there should be a grey one.

I don't think he has blind hatred untill Justice takes over, I think his hate for them is well placed.

I added Blind Hatred to Meredith because come on she wants all mages lockd up or died because of her sister

I'll agree with you on Meredith, at least at the end. Initially though, I disagree. I don't think she hated the mages until she came under the influence of the idol for a long period of time.

Hatred can be well placed but still blind someone. This is the case of Anders. Yes, maybe with the extra pressure from Justice, it becomes even worse, but remember, he and Justice are one being now. It's not 2 seperate characters anymore. His hatred causes him to use and betray his friends to make things more convenient for him and murder who knows how many innocents in the name of his 'cause.' I'd call that pretty blind.

[BobWalt]

dreman9999 wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

BobWalt wrote...

Greek tragedies were created to highlight the will of Greek gods. Since Greek gods do not exist Shakespeare came up with the idea of a major character flaw causing a tragedy. My characters do not have those flaws so why the tragedy?

Bob

Because the entire world does not just consist of your character? There are other forces at work that Hawke has no control over; and there are also circumstances that s/he has no control over. One of my favourite things about this game is that player agency isn't the only agency. 

I don't mind that Hawke is not the only agency but I do mind that I am not able to make the common sense choices necessary to prevent some of the wrongs from occuring.

Bob

Ok then, what are these common sense choices you want to make?

Keep in mind that the story takes place over a span of years..
First Act
Getting in the city is fine although there should have been some quests involved possibly some actions with the group that was joined.  After getting into the city it becomes obvious that you can't stay at your Gamlen's permanently.  The Deep Roads expedition is a OK.  As you prepare for it you notice several important things about Kirkwall and its surrounding areas.

• The Chantry has little out reach to the majority of the population.
  
• There are a group of Templars that are not happy with the way Mages are treated.
  
• The current management of the Templars has been ineffective in protecting the population from corrupt   mages.
  
• There are a large group of fellow Fereldens that need jobs.
  
• Ferelden itself will need to import food and building materials.

Just in the way the first act now goes your party is providing the only medical aid available in Darktown, helped to keep down street crime and cleaned up a corrupt city guard. In addition, You are working on a business to employ Ferelden refugees this could be extended. The above taken together should start to make you popular with both the peasantry and the growing middle class.  To handle the Deep Roads Expedition the game should have allowed the player to get together with Varric, you and your brother or sister and then decide who should go.  There is a real good reason why women shouldn't be left alone in a medieval society so one of the Hawke should stay with their mother. It could be either the player or the sibling with the decision going to what type is needed most by the expedition.  If the player does not go on the Expedition then the focus shifts to sibling and you play him or her for the Expedition.
This is just the first Act but I think you can all see the direction this takes.  There are a great many possibilities that lie unrealized in DA2. I will stop for now as this is getting too long.
Bob

Modifié par BobWalt, 22 mars 2011 - 08:39 .