422 réponses à ce sujet

[Akron1983]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Akron1983 wrote...

Nope, nothing interesting and appealing about a character willing to give up everything, friends, family, the only life shes known, to save everyone shes ever cared for. The people then proceed to throw that sacrifice back in her face and still she wont give up what she think is right. And when she finally realize that what shes doing is destructive, wich is probably long before Hawke shows up (denial anyone), shes too far gone. So she pushes forward in the delusion that she will make something good come of it. No nothing interesting at all. Move along people. Nothing to see

That's exactly why she's interesting! If she was correct and always right and powerful she'd be boring.

Although, it's extremely likely you're being sarcastic. It's hard to tell in text sometimes.

/sarcasm off  Yes I really do find her a very interesting character

[AlexXIV]

What really bugs me is that you can't prevent the keeper from doing that. It would have been good to see what happens if Merrill gets to do whatever she wants to do. Maybe she had succeeded, maybe she had died.

There I prefer Flemeth, she is so direct.

Hawke: 'I don't know what we would have done without your help.'
Flemeth: 'I know. You would have perished.'

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Then it's a retcon. Because it was a plot point in Awakening that they had no written history. That's why the blank book was a big plot gift to V-Elf I forget her name.

Velanna.  And maybe her clan did it differently.   Or maybe her Keeper was just an idiot.

... which, seeing as how she picked Velanna for her apprentice, is a definite possibility.  Seriously.   Now she's stupid.

I liked her voice actress....that's about the nicest thing I have to say about her. Well, that and she was hilarious with Oghren.

I'm willing to believe that only that one clan had no written history.

[cglasgow]

Kartikeya wrote...

I wasn't using childish there as something negative. Maybe I should have used 'childlike' instead. Your quote is spot on.

Yup!  And in that instance, note, Angel was right.  He turned Fred's death from a meaningless tragedy into a key part in a Xanatos Gambit that dealt the Senior Partners the single biggest hit they'd taken in millenia, even though some steps of that plan required a flat-out insane level of risk-taking.

When you risk everything you have towards an objective of great good and you succeed, you're a hero.   When you do that and fail, you're a tragedy.

But either way, you're not a chump.

Oh, and re: Velanna's VA; one of the most criminal underuses of a talented actress ever.  You do not use Grey DeLisle to voice a stupid villainess!  You use her to voice a magnificent one!

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Erm, it's worth noting that Gaider said way back when that the Dalish had better ways of dealing with demons than the humans did. He didn't say that they were never possessed (and indeed, we have a clear example of possession in the Keeper) but that they knew how to protect themselves from the more dangerous ones.

Merrill says as much as well. Everybody assumes, though, that even with her training and years of preparation, she'll just get possessed like some n00b circle apprentice. That's beyond uncharitable--that's just silly.

[AlexXIV]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Erm, it's worth noting that Gaider said way back when that the Dalish had better ways of dealing with demons than the humans did. He didn't say that they were never possessed (and indeed, we have a clear example of possession in the Keeper) but that they knew how to protect themselves from the more dangerous ones.

Merrill says as much as well. Everybody assumes, though, that even with her training and years of preparation, she'll just get possessed like some n00b circle apprentice. That's beyond uncharitable--that's just silly.

The keeper couldn't fight the demon, why would Merrill? Was she so much better prepared than the keeper?

[Kartikeya]

cglasgow wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

I wasn't using childish there as something negative. Maybe I should have used 'childlike' instead. Your quote is spot on.

Yup!  And in that instance, note, Angel was right.  He turned Fred's death from a meaningless tragedy into a key part in a Xanatos Gambit that dealt the Senior Partners the single biggest hit they'd taken in millenia, even though some steps of that plan required a flat-out insane level of risk-taking.

When you risk everything you have towards an objective of great good and you succeed, you're a hero.   When you do that and fail, you're a tragedy.

But either way, you're not a chump.

Oh, and re: Velanna's VA; one of the most criminal underuses of a talented actress ever.  You do not use Grey DeLisle to voice a stupid villainess!  You use her to voice a magnificent one!

Hahaha, I agree 100% with this, but especially that last bit.

[mesmerizedish]

AlexXIV wrote...

The keeper couldn't fight the demon, why would Merrill? Was she so much better prepared than the keeper?

Well... yes, actually.

[Foolsfolly]

AlexXIV wrote...

What really bugs me is that you can't prevent the keeper from doing that. It would have been good to see what happens if Merrill gets to do whatever she wants to do. Maybe she had succeeded, maybe she had died.

There I prefer Flemeth, she is so direct.

Hawke: 'I don't know what we would have done without your help.'
Flemeth: 'I know. You would have perished.'

But then there's no fun in arguing about if she'd give in to a demon for the third time or not. We'd know and everyone would pick the outcome where Merrill lived....unless you didn't like her and thought she deserved to die more than the Keeper.

But the Keeper was just as much to blame. She should have ran the clan as far away from that mountain as possible as soon as she found out a demon was trapped there. Remove the temption from Merrill in the first place. Plus she should have left even after Merrill gave in to temption. She has the responsiblity of the clan's well-being and her favoring Merrill put them all at risk.

And could have led to their deaths.

[cglasgow]

AlexXIV wrote...

The keeper couldn't fight the demon, why would Merrill? Was she so much better prepared than the keeper?

The Keeper surrendered to the demon.  She deliberately lured it into herself.

Merrill, on the other hand, isn't inviting the damn thing in, nor is she challenging it to a steel cage death match.  She's just going to do a negotiation session with it; there's still an element of risk in that (its why you're there), but she's going to be standing as far back from it as she can and still talk, instead of trying to wrestle it.

[Akron1983]

AlexXIV wrote...

What really bugs me is that you can't prevent the keeper from doing that. It would have been good to see what happens if Merrill gets to do whatever she wants to do. Maybe she had succeeded, maybe she had died.

There I prefer Flemeth, she is so direct.

Hawke: 'I don't know what we would have done without your help.'
Flemeth: 'I know. You would have perished.'

"You can never be a dragon" Best character ever!

[Emperor Iaius I]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The keeper couldn't fight the demon, why would Merrill? Was she so much better prepared than the keeper?

Well... yes, actually.

This.

The Keeper was willfully ignorant. Merrill, on the other hand, experimented with blood magic and demonic arts for years. Remember the old expression: know thy enemy. Or another, knowledge is power. And to complete the clichéfest, ignorance is bliss and the Keeper was very, very happy.

edit: cglasgow makes the better point: the Keeper willingly took in the demon.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 22 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[Lithuasil]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The keeper couldn't fight the demon, why would Merrill? Was she so much better prepared than the keeper?

Well... yes, actually.

The keeper didn't fight the demon, she took it in voluntarily, because she wasn't powerful enough to banish it. Merill, with the help of two senior mages and a spirit would've likely been able to bludgeon the demon into submission.

[Foolsfolly]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The keeper couldn't fight the demon, why would Merrill? Was she so much better prepared than the keeper?

Well... yes, actually.

I'll agree.

The Keeper's biggest weakness that the demon could use was her love for Merrill. I can easily see the demon convincing the Keeper that she couldn't win and that it'll take Merrill. And convince the Keeper into letting the demon take her instead.

After all, the demon wanted freedom, not Merrill specifically.

[Freestorm Skinn]

AlexXIV wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

How many people have noticed that Merrill is also driven by guilt? She keeps referring to the friend who was lost in the mirror back in the Dalish origin back ORIGINS and she wants to find him and get him back as much as acquire lost Elven knowledge. She even talks about hallucinating and seeing her friend Temlen on the streets of Kirkwall because she's still blames herself.

Her story is every bit as tragic as Hawke's.

She is also driven by pride and she deals with a pride demon. Which is why I would like to have seen what happens without the keeper messing with the demon. She is proud enough to think that she and maybe she alone can give back the dalish what they have lost. And that's why she failed in the fade.

Guilt, pride and obsession are the lethal combination for Merrill. The Fade scene was either a warning or a foreshadow of her eventual fate.  

And the keeper's love for her leads the clan to doom, really, because even if you don't kill off the clan after the Keeper dies, the clan is still essentially doomed without a keeper.

Pretty good tragical plotting on the writers' part, I think.  And of course, Merrill's story isn't over yet.

[Legbiter]

She's charmingly naive, sexually available and can kill the bad guys with her mind?

[JamesX]

Lithuasil wrote...

The keeper didn't fight the demon, she took it in voluntarily, because she wasn't powerful enough to banish it. Merill, with the help of two senior mages and a spirit would've likely been able to bludgeon the demon into submission.

Actually the demon (if the keeper is correct) would have taken possession of Merriel's body the moment she used the statue.

Then you would end up killing Mirrel.  That is the whole reason why she took the demon inside her instead of letting it take over Merriel.

Considering by all accounts the Keeper knows Merriel's limit well, knows her personality well, and knows more about demons than Merriel does, I would take her judgement over Merriel's.

[AlexXIV]

Well that's an assumption at best. Even Merrill is obviously not sure that she can take on the demon. Hence why Hawke is comming to prevent the worst if the second worst happens.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 11:13 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Legbiter wrote...

She's charmingly naive, sexually available and can kill the bad guys with her mind?

...that line, coupled with Loghain's face in your icon, just screams creepy. Sorry.

JamesX: By which accounts? The Keeper took in the demon! You think the person stupid enough to willingly become an abomination knows best? The person who would combine the power of a pride demon and the skills of a keeper? Marethari makes Cailan look like a military genius and a prudent lad. She's the stupidest, most reckless, and foolish person in the entire game series.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 22 mars 2011 - 11:14 .

[Lithuasil]

JamesX wrote...
]Actually the demon (if the keeper is correct) would have taken possession of Merriel's body the moment she used the statue.

Then you would end up killing Mirrel.  That is the whole reason why she took the demon inside her instead of letting it take over Merriel.

Considering by all accounts the Keeper knows Merriel's limit well, knows her personality well, and knows more about demons than Merriel does, I would take her judgement over Merriel's.

And I'd let Anders touch the thing first. That's why I brought him.

[Pileyourbodies]

Shes cute naive and that accent...The welsh are cursed in many ways but they have such beautiful accents.

[The Angry One]

JamesX wrote...

Actually the demon (if the keeper is correct) would have taken possession of Merriel's body the moment she used the statue.

Assuming the pride demon isn't exagerrating it's own abilities...

Then you would end up killing Mirrel.  That is the whole reason why she took the demon inside her instead of letting it take over Merriel.

Considering by all accounts the Keeper knows Merriel's limit well, knows her personality well, and knows more about demons than Merriel does, I would take her judgement over Merriel's.

Judgement is clouded by love, and Marethari was clearly always over-protective.

[Illwillsam]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Keeper died because she treated Merrill like a child, even after Merrill had stopped being one.

I actually agree. The Keeper should have let Merrill continue forward and turn into an Abomination. It would break her heart but she has the responsibility to keep the clan safe and she put all of them in great danger out of her love for Merrill.

Merrill made her mistake and is set in her beliefs. The safety of the clan has to come first, they need to keep moving and they need to distance themselves from the threat of the Pride Demon and Merrill.

It's sad.

I don't necessarily disagree with your interpretation however, sacrificing yourself to save someone else can be done without treating them like a child. I think the Keeper saw Merrill as HER child and I will bet that at least some parents would vouch for me when I say that you probably never stop seeing your children in any other way than children. And I think that many parents would bite the bullet for their children, irrelevant of their age.

And this is why I love Bioware games.

Thank you for the intelligent discussion.

[Beaynid]

Taleroth wrote...

The thing about Merril is that in the entirety of the game, when it comes to Mages that don't turn into Abominations... it's her and Alain.

Maybe they know something you don't.

actually there are a few more you meet along the way that dont turn into them either.  i can think of terri(starkhaven mage you can rescue who then sends you letters)  and bethany for another.

merril isnt insane really.  she has very strong convictions about regaining the elvhen lost history, culture and etc.  she believes that to be able to restore anything her people have lost is worth almost any price, including the possibility that it ends up claiming her life.  she didnt just one day decide oh i should really restore the mirror that took my friend, but no one will help me so let me summon a demon willy nilly to learn blood magic with no preperation beforehand. 

She spent her whole time as a keepers first studying alot of magic theory and practice along with what ancient secrets of such the clans keeper have saved.  she was careful as she knew she needed to be when learning blood magic and dealing with demons.  so she didnt just go hey demon come over here and teach me magic, teehee

She believes so strongly in this that she leaves her clan and everything she knew and comes with you to kirkwall.  you think she is going to pay attention to anders the mentally unhinged abomination, or fenris 'i hate all mages because some mages made me a lyrium infused death stalker slave'?  the only person i could even see her possibly listening to is hawke but i doubt that too, it would seem like the one person she could count on has betrayed her core of what she believes. 

and as for her acting ditzy and naive about things in kirkwall, its due to the fact that she rarely interacted with the people in her own clan and has never been in a crowded city before.  this leads her to be socially awkward, inquisitive about everything, which comes off as very naive, ditzy, on the verge of stupid.   consider a person raised in a secluded farm or country area for most of their life, going into a really big crowded city for the first time.  either they freak and get scared and nervous, or they stand amazed and in awe of all the things theyve never seen before(including a mugging). merril is the latter of those 2 for the most part.

so there you go, i believe that is a fairly accurate analysis of merril's character, beliefs, motivation, background and how it correlates into how she acts in the game.  hope this helps!

[mesmerizedish]

cglasgow, Emperor Iaius I, Lithuasil, and Foolsfolly wrote...

ish was right (duh)

I'm so glad that you guys all stepped in to offer some explanation. I thought about explaining myself, but I felt it lessened the impact of my one sentence. So, thanks guys