422 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

JamesX wrote...

Actually the demon (if the keeper is correct) would have taken possession of Merriel's body the moment she used the statue.

Actually, no.  The Keeper said that the demon's original plan was to use Merrill to complete the mirror, and then use the mirror to escape the Fade in its own body, not hers.   Merrill was never actually at risk of possession in the first place.

How's that for irony?

And, really, assuming that Merrill had invited Hawke for her first activation of the mirror (and why wouldn't she?  This is her big moment!  She wants all her friends there to watch!), then that would have been the most hilarious escape scene ever.

The Demon Audacity: "MWAHAHAHAHA!  I AM FREE!"
Merrill: "... oh dear.  Um, no?  I won't let you?"
Anders: "DAMMIT!  I TOLD YOU SO!  SEE?  SEE?!?"
Fenris: "... while I agree with the sentiment, might I suggest your first priority be the demon?"
Snarky!Hawke: "I wonder if it's occurred to the big spiky fellow that this room only has one door, which we're all standing in?"
Varric: "Be fair, its only just gotten here from the Fade.  Maybe it hasn't figured out that in the real world, we have these things called 'walls.'"
Isabela: "Do you think demons carry lots of money in their pockets?  I mean, the last one I met promised me a whole ship."
Aveline: *facepalm*

And then cue two minutes of a demon being painfully murdered.  

[Illwillsam]

I think the fact that this thread hit 10 pages and gained at least 2 in the last half hour proves that she is an interesting character to many people.

[AlexXIV]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

cglasgow, Emperor Iaius I, Lithuasil, and Foolsfolly wrote...

ish was right (duh)

I'm so glad that you guys all stepped in to offer some explanation. I thought about explaining myself, but I felt it lessened the impact of my one sentence. So, thanks guys 

As much as I'd like to disagree. Since the 'everyone is bi' thing I don't know what to believe anymore.

[The Angry One]

cglasgow wrote...

And then cue two minutes of a demon being painfully murdered.  

Which is by the way exactly what happens when he manifests through Marethari.

[Legbiter]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

She's charmingly naive, sexually available and can kill the bad guys with her mind?

...that line, coupled with Loghain's face in your icon, just screams creepy. Sorry.

Not half as upsetting as your emo-teen icon self-injurying herself I assure you.

Modifié par Legbiter, 22 mars 2011 - 11:32 .

[The Angry One]

Legbiter wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

She's charmingly naive, sexually available and can kill the bad guys with her mind?

...that line, coupled with Loghain's face in your icon, just screams creepy. Sorry.

Not half as upsetting as your emo-teen icon self-injurying herself I assure you.

Loghain's temprament too I see. Good man! Always roleplay your avatar!

[Kartikeya]

Oh come now. You can agree or disagree with Marethari's actions and motives, but boiling it down to just 'she was just stupid and should've known Hawke has plot armor' is doing the entire thing, and Merrill's character, a severe disservice.

Agree or not, Marethari's conviction that Merrill would not be able to withstand the demon and would be killed as abomination at best was just as strong as Merrill's conviction that the mirror should be restored at all costs. It's not a tragedy if there aren't flawed people making mistakes that, in hindsight, may or may not have been avoidable. Both of them are entirely set in their beliefs of how this thing will play out, both of them could have probably avoided if it they were willing to just listen to each other a little bit.

Marethari sacrificed herself to save Merrill. Was it necessary? Who knows. But it's a little silly to praise Merill's willingness to sacrifice herself over what she believes is right and condemn Marethari's in the same breath.

[JamesX]

You guys might also want to keep in mind that the Demon may have lied to Merriel all along.  The Mirror is actually not fixable.  That is why with everything she did the mirror still does nothing.  All this is just the demon forging a host for his exist from his statue prison.

[The Angry One]

Not sure who's outright criticising Marethari. What she did was a noble sacrifice.
But again it was a sacrifice made due to her presumptions and over protectiveness. She refused to see Merril's side of it, or let Merril make her own mistakes and suffer the consequences.

That doesn't make Marethari bad or stupid, but it doesn't make Merril wrong.

[mesmerizedish]

The Angry One wrote...

Not sure who's outright criticising Marethari. What she did was a noble sacrifice.
But again it was a sacrifice made due to her presumptions and over protectiveness. She refused to see Merril's side of it, or let Merril make her own mistakes and suffer the consequences.

That doesn't make Marethari bad or stupid, but it doesn't make Merril wrong.

I'm outright criticising Marethari. She had a duty to protect her clan that she ignored for seven years, just in case Merrill tried to talk to the demon again. She did this out of protectiveness, yes, but also out of arrogance.

[Lithuasil]

What Marethari did was shortsighted, but noble.
What the clan did afterwards, was utterly retarded :|

[Kartikeya]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

She's charmingly naive, sexually available and can kill the bad guys with her mind?

...that line, coupled with Loghain's face in your icon, just screams creepy. Sorry.

JamesX: By which accounts? The Keeper took in the demon! You think the person stupid enough to willingly become an abomination knows best? The person who would combine the power of a pride demon and the skills of a keeper? Marethari makes Cailan look like a military genius and a prudent lad. She's the stupidest, most reckless, and foolish person in the entire game series.

I should've quoted, sorry. That's the kind of comment I'm objecting to. (I also object to reducing Cailan's character to 'he was stupid so he desrved to die', but that's an argument for the other forums that has happened soooo many times already).

[mesmerizedish]

Lithuasil wrote...

What Marethari did was shortsighted, but noble.

Only if you want to handwave her responsibility to her clan.

What the clan did afterwards, was utterly retarded :|

Truer words have never been spoken.

[JamesX]

The Angry One wrote...

But again it was a sacrifice made due to her presumptions and over protectiveness. She refused to see Merril's side of it, or let Merril make her own mistakes and suffer the consequences.

That doesn't make Marethari bad or stupid, but it doesn't make Merril wrong.

That is only true on the basis that Merriel knows more about everything than Marathari.

When adults tell children not to accept candy from strangers, you can argue that that is just adults being over protective and being presumptious.  Or you can say the adults are being sensible and making a sound judgement.  Not all strangers are evil and some might actually just want to give you candy because they are nice.  But not always.

You should not start the question assuming Merriel is correct.  Because the end she was wrong.  Mirror brought nothing but misery to her clan.  You can say if Marathari or the clan didn't act as they did things would have been different.  

But they did.  

So trying to restore the mirror still resulted in death and destruction with nothing to show for it.

[Sabariel]

Merrill reminds me of a rebellious sixteen year old who's in love with a "bad boy". She drives me bonkers *pokes her with a stick*

[Dr. Nexas]

The Angry One wrote...

Not sure who's outright criticising Marethari. What she did was a noble sacrifice.
But again it was a sacrifice made due to her presumptions and over protectiveness. She refused to see Merril's side of it, or let Merril make her own mistakes and suffer the consequences.

That doesn't make Marethari bad or stupid, but it doesn't make Merril wrong.

I wouldn't say she was stupid for sacrificing herself for Merrill. I would say she is stupid for doing so without telling the rest of the clan. What good is sacrificing yourself to save Merrill if one of your hunters put an arrow through her heart because they thought she sacrificed you in some creepy blood magic ritual?

[The Angry One]

With regards to the rest of the clan, yes I agree what Marethari did was vastly irresponsible.
The clan's reaction afterwards? Yes, completely stupid. I like how even Arianni attacks you. Even if you have saved Feynriel twice and ensured his career as an up and coming mage in Tevinter.

"Oh well everybody else is attacking, CHHHAAARRGE!"

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 11:44 .

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

With regards to the rest of the clan, yes I agree what Marethari did was vastly irresponsible.
The clan's reaction afterwards? Yes, completely stupid.

I like however, how Merill actually shares that opinion, and cries over the loss of the keeper, without even mentioning she just took part in lighting everyone she ever knew on fire. 

[Kartikeya]

Master Ilen actually knows something is going to happen from a remark he makes right after you talk to Marethari, if she says 'I will try to stall things as long as I can' and leaves. He's telling his apprentices to pack up, because they're going, and one of them asks why. I'm afraid I don't remember exactly what he says, as it's background chatter, but I remember some implication that either Marethari tipped him off that something might happen, or he was savvy enough to pick up that bad stuff was about to go down.

[Legbiter]

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain's temprament too I see. Good man! Always roleplay your avatar!

I aim to please. Your avatar looks prettier when showing her left side.

[Kartikeya]

To clarify, he says something like 'as for the rest of the clan...that's up to them. We're leaving.'

[Wulfram]

Lithuasil wrote...

I like however, how Merill actually shares that opinion, and cries over the loss of the keeper, without even mentioning she just took part in lighting everyone she ever knew on fire. 

Are you sure that's not part of the bugs?  I mean, since she's crying over Marethari's death when she's still alive, I'm not really expecting things to make sense.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kartikeya wrote...

Oh come now. You can agree or disagree with Marethari's actions and motives, but boiling it down to just 'she was just stupid and should've known Hawke has plot armor' is doing the entire thing, and Merrill's character, a severe disservice.

Agree or not, Marethari's conviction that Merrill would not be able to withstand the demon and would be killed as abomination at best was just as strong as Merrill's conviction that the mirror should be restored at all costs. It's not a tragedy if there aren't flawed people making mistakes that, in hindsight, may or may not have been avoidable. Both of them are entirely set in their beliefs of how this thing will play out, both of them could have probably avoided if it they were willing to just listen to each other a little bit.

Marethari sacrificed herself to save Merrill. Was it necessary? Who knows. But it's a little silly to praise Merill's willingness to sacrifice herself over what she believes is right and condemn Marethari's in the same breath.

Well, besides noting the differences in responsibility between the two, one of whom was a voluntary exile and the other who was an active leader?

[Beaynid]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

One of the most annoying parts about Merrill is her insistance that Demons be called "Spirits," when there is a clear distinction between the two.

Demons are spirits. All spirits are dangerous. Yes, you can deal with them, and it's possible you'll come out ahead, but there's always a price.

What Merrill says about spirits is consistently correct.

The idea that there are 'good spirits' and 'bad demons' is what got Anders into trouble.

Well, I've already explained the behavioral distinction between the two.  Demonic entities are by far more dangerous than spirits, as they attempt to actively possess mortals, leave the Fade, and exert influence on the mortal realm.  Merrill's classification of "demons" as "spirits" marginalizes the dangers these creatures pose to the world, and is most likely a means of justifying her dealings with them.

I don't recall Wynne paying any price for dealing with the Spirit of Faith, and I don't remember the spirit that mage Wardens first encounter in the Fade having any ulterior motive.  If you remove the distinction between "demon" and "spirit," you are ignoring vast differences between the two types of being.  That's like saying calling lions "cats."  Obvious differences make one far less risky to play with than the other.

ummm if you mean the mage origins, then you should replay that origin story again because the first spirit was not what you think.

and 'demons' are just fade spirits who have latched onto bad, more destructive human attributes.  the 'good' sprits are those that latch onto the better qualities(usually known as virtues).  due to the different attributes the bad kinds actively seek to posses and corrupt mortals, while the good kinds often ignore mortals.  they are all spirits of the fade though.  its just humans that put the distinction as a way of labelling which ones really need to be watched out for. 

its kinda like saying boiling water is different from ice when its still water.  the state may have changed but the water molecules havent, its still water.  or maybe a better water example would be sugar water and seawater.  they both have mixtures different within each, but at the core its all water(if you remove the impurities its all the same)

and using wynne as an example as someone did is not a good case either.  she may be thankful she was brought back, but the fade spirit went against the natural order in doing so.  it may have brought her back to life, but it is now dying as the price must be paid.  so in that case the spirit is paying the price instead of wynne.  so technically there is always a price when dealing with any spirit. 

[Foolsfolly]

Illwillsam wrote...

I think the fact that this thread hit 10 pages and gained at least 2 in the last half hour proves that she is an interesting character to many people.

I like her! I like that I disagree with what she's doing but I still find her interesting and tragic. That's not true for Anders, I simply do not like that guy. But Merrill's got just enough....I don't know, character that makes her choices relatable.

Anders, his actions were in character but I couldn't like him even before the big event he does. Merrill may (depending on your choice of words) help destroy her whole clan and I still feel sorry for her.

I want to see more of this character. She's the only companion I want to be a companion for Hawke or whoever the new protag would be in DA3.