422 réponses à ce sujet

[Kartikeya]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

Oh come now. You can agree or disagree with Marethari's actions and motives, but boiling it down to just 'she was just stupid and should've known Hawke has plot armor' is doing the entire thing, and Merrill's character, a severe disservice.

Agree or not, Marethari's conviction that Merrill would not be able to withstand the demon and would be killed as abomination at best was just as strong as Merrill's conviction that the mirror should be restored at all costs. It's not a tragedy if there aren't flawed people making mistakes that, in hindsight, may or may not have been avoidable. Both of them are entirely set in their beliefs of how this thing will play out, both of them could have probably avoided if it they were willing to just listen to each other a little bit.

Marethari sacrificed herself to save Merrill. Was it necessary? Who knows. But it's a little silly to praise Merill's willingness to sacrifice herself over what she believes is right and condemn Marethari's in the same breath.

Well, besides noting the differences in responsibility between the two, one of whom was a voluntary exile and the other who was an active leader?

That voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader, and had been trained from it since she was about four, if I remember the codex entry correctly. There's no one to replace her, and her clan is already in a bad way because they've lost their halla. As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

[Lithuasil]

Wulfram wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

I like however, how Merill actually shares that opinion, and cries over the loss of the keeper, without even mentioning she just took part in lighting everyone she ever knew on fire. 

Are you sure that's not part of the bugs?  I mean, since she's crying over Marethari's death when she's still alive, I'm not really expecting things to make sense.

She did wait with the crying until the keeper actually died, for me anyway. Might still be bugged, but hey, if the rest of my homevillage would try to murder me for someone else screwing up big time, I wouldn't shed that many tears either.

[Foolsfolly]

Kartikeya wrote...

Oh come now. You can agree or disagree with Marethari's actions and motives, but boiling it down to just 'she was just stupid and should've known Hawke has plot armor' is doing the entire thing, and Merrill's character, a severe disservice.

Agree or not, Marethari's conviction that Merrill would not be able to withstand the demon and would be killed as abomination at best was just as strong as Merrill's conviction that the mirror should be restored at all costs. It's not a tragedy if there aren't flawed people making mistakes that, in hindsight, may or may not have been avoidable. Both of them are entirely set in their beliefs of how this thing will play out, both of them could have probably avoided if it they were willing to just listen to each other a little bit.

Marethari sacrificed herself to save Merrill. Was it necessary? Who knows. But it's a little silly to praise Merill's willingness to sacrifice herself over what she believes is right and condemn Marethari's in the same breath.

I honestly believe Merrill would have done anything the demon asked of her. I honestly agree with the Keeper's belief Merrill had no spine against temptation. I disagree with the Keeper putting her clan in danger and then surredering herself to that demon.

But it's not that hard to think Merrill would give in to a demon again is it? She did it before you met her and she did it again in the Fade. She wants to save her people, to protect them, and that's noble but she wants it so much that it's a weakness for demons to use.

It's the same with the Keeper here. Her love for Merrill is admirable, she's like Merrill's mother. But that love led to the possible death of her entire clan and allowed the demon to convince her to let it in.

The two characters are very similar. They're good people who's weakness are noble ideas. Unlike Anders and Isabella who have innoble ideas as their weakness (vengence and greed).

[Foolsfolly]

As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

Merrill does have a responsibility to her clan as its First. I agree with that. If we're going to say the Keeper messed up because of her love for Merrill we also have to agree that Merrill messed up out of her love/guilt for her clan.

You know, outside of the whole Qunari storyline the Merrill storyline might be my favorite in the entire game.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I honestly believe Merrill would have done anything the demon asked of her.

Despite there being no actual evidence ot this in the game.   For the love of God, Merrill's defining character trait is being a blood mage that has yet retained her sense of ethics; she never, and I mean never, actually commits an evil act in the entire flarging game.  Even this discussion focuses only on the wisdom of her course of action, not the morals of it.

Going from there to 'Merrill would have done anything the demon asked' is silly.  Ever stop to wonder why the demon had gotten nowhere in seven years?  Because there was a very very limited list of things it could ask Merrill to do before she'd balk. 

We've seen how long it takes mages that do 'anything a demon asks' to go from zero to abomination; about five seconds.   Merrill beat this time by, oh, infinity.

I honestly agree with the Keeper's belief Merrill had no spine against temptation.

Merethari actually says this when?

But it's not that hard to think Merrill would give in to a demon again is it? She did it before you met her

No she did not.  Because she's not an abomination when you meet her, nor is she trying to free the demon.

and she did it again in the Fade.

That Fade sequence has already been discussed at incredible length.

Although I'll remind people yet again that you were inside the mindscape of a boy specifically stated to the have the mutant power of being able to make Fade demons super-strong, if they worked through his mind.

Y'know, just in case that might possibly have some relevance as to why every non-abomination NPC you can bring along with you has a point at which they'll crack in there.

Modifié par cglasgow, 23 mars 2011 - 12:12 .

[Legbiter]

To those moral stalwarts bagging on Merrill for working on the Eluvian, during her entire blood magic/Eluvian career her actual lab work kills exactly no none.

Not one.

All of the deaths surrounding the said Eluvian are because of people reacting to what Merrill has done or might do. Compared to Hawke who kills enough people to be a statistically significant cause of death for Kirkwallers along with the Bloody Flux or Crotchrot, Merrill the EVUHLLL blood mage , has zero casualties, research wise, all the while dealing with some very dangerous magics.

Modifié par Legbiter, 23 mars 2011 - 12:31 .

[MasterSamson88]

Legbiter wrote...

To those moral stalwarts bagging on Merrill for working on the Eluvian, during her entire blood magic/Eluvian career her actual lab work kills exactly no none.

Not one.

All of the deaths surrounding the said Eluvian are because of people reacting to what Merrill has done or might do. Compared to Hawke who kills enough people to be a statistically significant cause of death for Kirkwallers along the Bloody Flux or Crotchrot, Merrill the EVUHLLL blood mage , has zero casualties, research wise, all the while dealing with some very dangerous magics.

You sum it up rather nicely when it comes to Merrill at least. Marethari it seems people could debate all day. 

[Kartikeya]

I'm not sure why Merrill being wrong or potentially misguided about something has to translate into Merrill being evil. Even the original post asserting that she's insane or stupid doesn't mean she's evil.

It does raise my eyebrow where she objects every single time to the suggestion that demons are untrustworthy and that blood magic is maybe not always great. That quest where you're destroying the evil tomes that summon demons (regardless of whether you accept the deal or not) will net you rivalry every single time if she's in your party and you choose to destroy the book rather than accept a deal for more power in exchange for leaving the book there for more people to encounter. She states that she knows demons are dangerous and blood magic is a risk, but she doesn't really demonstrate that she actually believes this in her actions.

Do I think she was seriously at risk of that particular demon possessing her? Damn straight. But I can't know for sure any more than anyone else can know for sure that she would be able to resist the temptation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kartikeya wrote...

That voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader, and had been trained from it since she was about four, if I remember the codex entry correctly. There's no one to replace her, and her clan is already in a bad way because they've lost their halla. As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

Six years ago.

The voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader six years ago. Since then, there's been more than half a decade in which she's been, well, an exile.

Now, if the entire thing happened over the course of, oh, three weeks, I might agree. But Merrill was training as a future leader, political differences came up and the position (and training) ended, and it's been a good deal of time since Merrill had any such roll.

[The Angry One]

Are the Dalish Qunari now? Is there no one in the entire clan who can replace her in all that time?
Is Merril somehow wrong for rejecting her set destiny if that's not what she wants (or rather, her clan forces her to choose between her career and her ambitions).

[MasterSamson88]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

That voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader, and had been trained from it since she was about four, if I remember the codex entry correctly. There's no one to replace her, and her clan is already in a bad way because they've lost their halla. As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

Six years ago.

The voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader six years ago. Since then, there's been more than half a decade in which she's been, well, an exile.

Now, if the entire thing happened over the course of, oh, three weeks, I might agree. But Merrill was training as a future leader, political differences came up and the position (and training) ended, and it's been a good deal of time since Merrill had any such roll.

Well I believe Merrill also mentions that Marethari found a new  First sometime within those years she was away. In act III Merrill mentions that she wish she could have met her. 

[Kartikeya]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

That voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader, and had been trained from it since she was about four, if I remember the codex entry correctly. There's no one to replace her, and her clan is already in a bad way because they've lost their halla. As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

Six years ago.

The voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader six years ago. Since then, there's been more than half a decade in which she's been, well, an exile.

Now, if the entire thing happened over the course of, oh, three weeks, I might agree. But Merrill was training as a future leader, political differences came up and the position (and training) ended, and it's been a good deal of time since Merrill had any such roll.

I'm not sure why the amount of time that ends up passing between these two decisions is a factor. Merrill's responsibility to the clan was tossed aside when she voluntarily exiles herself. Marethari's when she puts Merrill's welfare over that of her clan. In fact, if we're bringing that into it, then she continued to ignore her responsibility to the clan for six years in order to obsess over the mirror. At any time she could have given it up and gone back and done what she was supposed to be doing, and she didn't. Likewise, Marethari sat around for six years ignoring what was best for her clan in favor of hoping that somehow, some way, she could protect Merrill from what she felt was an inevitable tragedy (and hoping that she'd return too). At any time she could have given that up and got her clan out of there, got a new First, and new Halla.

The person who pointed out just how similar these two are is spot on. Their conflict stems almost entirely from the exact same character flaws, and so does their tragedy.

[Foolsfolly]

Her work and her obsession led to the death of the Keeper and possibly her whole clan.

Did she do it? No. But her actions set those things in motion.

[Kartikeya]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

That voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader, and had been trained from it since she was about four, if I remember the codex entry correctly. There's no one to replace her, and her clan is already in a bad way because they've lost their halla. As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

Six years ago.

The voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader six years ago. Since then, there's been more than half a decade in which she's been, well, an exile.

Now, if the entire thing happened over the course of, oh, three weeks, I might agree. But Merrill was training as a future leader, political differences came up and the position (and training) ended, and it's been a good deal of time since Merrill had any such roll.

Well I believe Merrill also mentions that Marethari found a new  First sometime within those years she was away. In act III Merrill mentions that she wish she could have met her. 

Merrill does, but as we find out, the clan hasn't left, and the Keeper certainly hasn't picked someone new (there's no one to pick from, she has to get someone from the other clans). It's a reasonable assumption that turns out to be wrong.

[cglasgow]

Kartikeya wrote...

It does raise my eyebrow where she objects every single time to the suggestion that demons are untrustworthy

She does not do this.  She is in fact the one who schools Anders on the idiocy of his trusting Justice.

Merrill says at multiple junctions that you can never really trust anything from the Fade.   She even says this right after the Feynriel quest, while she's busy wondering what the hell kind of mind whammy she got hit with, to make her temporarily forget something so basic.  She says flat-out that lession #1 in Keeper training is 'Assume that everything in the Fade is either a lie, a trick, or a trap.'

Where you can go from that to 'Merrill thinks demons are trustworthy' is absolutely beyond me.

Modifié par cglasgow, 23 mars 2011 - 12:41 .

[The Angry One]

People assume Merril says demons are trustworthy and is naive about them because she states that the pride demon was nice to her, and that demons and spirits are essentially the same.

This presumes that nice = genuine and that demons and spirits being the same means that spirits are "good" and Merril therefore assumes demons are as good as spirits.
Neither is true. Merril never implies that demons are good, and what she says about spirits is correct. All Fade beings are bound by their nature, and you have to be equally cautious with all of them.

[MasterSamson88]

Kartikeya wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

That voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader, and had been trained from it since she was about four, if I remember the codex entry correctly. There's no one to replace her, and her clan is already in a bad way because they've lost their halla. As responsible as Marethari? No. But she had responsibilities she tossed aside as well.

Six years ago.

The voluntary exile was meant to be the next active leader six years ago. Since then, there's been more than half a decade in which she's been, well, an exile.

Now, if the entire thing happened over the course of, oh, three weeks, I might agree. But Merrill was training as a future leader, political differences came up and the position (and training) ended, and it's been a good deal of time since Merrill had any such roll.

Well I believe Merrill also mentions that Marethari found a new  First sometime within those years she was away. In act III Merrill mentions that she wish she could have met her. 

Merrill does, but as we find out, the clan hasn't left, and the Keeper certainly hasn't picked someone new (there's no one to pick from, she has to get someone from the other clans). It's a reasonable assumption that turns out to be wrong.

When I watched the cutscene I don't remember her assuming that a new one had been found. Just more or less stating that she heard Marethari did actually find someone. Whether that person was present while we were at Sundermount for the last part? Probably not? I don't know.

[MasterSamson88]

cglasgow wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

It does raise my eyebrow where she objects every single time to the suggestion that demons are untrustworthy

She does not do this.  She is in fact the one who schools Anders on the idiocy of his trusting Justice.

Merrill says at multiple junctions that you can never really trust anything from the Fade.   She even says this right after the Feynriel quest, while she's busy wondering what the hell kind of mind whammy she got hit with, to make her temporarily forget something so basic.  She says flat-out that lession #1 in Keeper training is 'Assume that everything in the Fade is either a lie, a trick, or a trap.'

Where you can go from that to 'Merrill thinks demons are trustworthy' is absolutely beyond me.

She can lose approval if you deny a demon a deal in the Fade I know, but this is only if you outright deny the demon. Basically Merrill is kind of a balance between not trusting spirits of the fade but also not turning away knowledge that could be possibly helpful. She essentially has a "lets hear it out before we outright kill it" kind of standing.

[Legbiter]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Her work and her obsession led to the death of the Keeper and possibly her whole clan.

Did she do it? No. But her actions set those things in motion.

Everything you do will set something in motion. Would Merrill have done what she did had she known the Keeper would ultimately thwart her plans by sacrificing her own life?

Would WW I have occured if everyone knew it would lead to a festering wound, leading to even worse WW II, leading to 3 generations and proxy wars, during a Cold War, etc.

Modifié par Legbiter, 23 mars 2011 - 12:49 .

[L33TDAWG]

Merrill is a dits who doesn't listen, like a 12 year old know-it-all. Shun the ditsed believer!

[Kartikeya]

I wish I had the text with me, but I don't. I remember it being something like 'whoever replaced me was probably much better, etc etc'. Where would Marethari get a replacement from? The clan hasn't moved in six years, there are no other mages in the clan, the only place they can get a replacement First is from another clan who has mage children to spare.

And try at any point to argue that one shouldn't trust demons in Merrill's presence, especially when you say it to her. Rivalry. Yes, she schools Anders about Justice. Why does this mean she can't also have her own Fade spirit blind spots?

I don't think Merrill believes demons are awesome and should be trusted. I do think she is far more trusting of demons than she should be, especially given the risks she's taking. She knows she shouldn't trust them. She's still more willing to believe what they say than is wise, and I'm not talking about the Night Terrors quest here. Further, she's stubborn, so anyone trying to say this to her just doesn't understand or is just treating her like a child, and she puts her back up.

[The Angry One]

thurmanator692 wrote...

her issue when it comes to demons isn't that she trusts them, its that she thinks not trusting them is enough. every time you talk about it, she gives you the "i know what i'm doing" line and goes about her buisness. then, after the quest when you confront the demons in the fade, she tells me that her seceret is just not trusting a thing they say. I half wanted to tell her off, how "stranger danger" alone wasn't going to work against demons

Well you know, it has worked for her so far.
And in a sense she's right - a demon has no power over you if you don't take their deals and even if you do, they seem to be bound by "rules".
Demons never seem to outright LIE. They make embellishments, they use you, they twist the truth with illusions and words but if they say they're going to do something for you they pretty much have to do it.
Merril at least has a chance of trying to outwit them and again the fact remains that the tragedies that occur happen because of the missteps of other people, not Merril.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 mars 2011 - 12:54 .