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[Foolsfolly]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

It does raise my eyebrow where she objects every single time to the suggestion that demons are untrustworthy

She does not do this.  She is in fact the one who schools Anders on the idiocy of his trusting Justice.

Merrill says at multiple junctions that you can never really trust anything from the Fade.   She even says this right after the Feynriel quest, while she's busy wondering what the hell kind of mind whammy she got hit with, to make her temporarily forget something so basic.  She says flat-out that lession #1 in Keeper training is 'Assume that everything in the Fade is either a lie, a trick, or a trap.'

Where you can go from that to 'Merrill thinks demons are trustworthy' is absolutely beyond me.

She can lose approval if you deny a demon a deal in the Fade I know, but this is only if you outright deny the demon. Basically Merrill is kind of a balance between not trusting spirits of the fade but also not turning away knowledge that could be possibly helpful. She essentially has a "lets hear it out before we outright kill it" kind of standing.

She also gains approval for reading the Blood Mage books from Act 2 and looses approval if you destroy them.

Merrill really likes demons and forbidden knowledge.

[Foolsfolly]

Legbiter wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Her work and her obsession led to the death of the Keeper and possibly her whole clan.

Did she do it? No. But her actions set those things in motion.

Everything you do will set something in motion. Would Merrill have done what she did had she known the Keeper would ultimately thwart her plans by sacrificing her own life?

Would WW I have occured if everyone knew it would lead to a festering wound, leading to even worse WW II, leading to 3 generations and proxy wars, during a Cold War, etc.

Merrill would have.

She's very the ends justify the means. She sacrifices anything to achieve her goal. She doesn't mean to cause harm, she just wants to help her people. But she does cause harm.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

She's very the ends justify the means.

She's the exact opposite.

She sacrifices anything to achieve her goal.

She only sacrifices herself.  She explicitly and out loud rejects the notion of sacrificing anyone else for her benefit. 

She doesn't mean to cause harm, she just wants to help her people. But she does cause harm.

Merrill never harms anyone.  Panicky or well-meaning fools near Merrill harmed themselves.

Modifié par cglasgow, 23 mars 2011 - 01:08 .

[Legbiter]

Foolsfolly wrote...

She's very the ends justify the means. She sacrifices anything to achieve her goal.

*shrug*

You played some other game than DA II if that is your take-home lesson from that character. Did Borderlands just do an expansion?

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

She's very the ends justify the means.

She's the exact opposite.

She sacrifices anything to achieve her goal.

She only sacrifices herself.  She explicitly and out loud rejects the notion of sacrificing anyone else for her benefit. 

She doesn't mean to cause harm, she just wants to help her people. But she does cause harm.

Merrill never harms anyone.  Panicky or well-meaning fools near Merrill harmed themselves.

Well, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

She makes a deal with a demon, learns blood magic, exiles herself from her family and clan, and betrays her lover/friend in the Fade for the chance to restore the elves.

She wants to help and no price is too high. She doesn't want to hurt people, but her actions lead to people being hurt.

[TiaraBlade]

I liked Merrill because she is so adorable and vulnerable; she needed me, needed someone certainly; all lost in the world.

Admittedly, much of that is due to her own stupidity and even I picked some options with the keeper about talking sense into Merrill. In the end, I loved Merrill despite her flaws even though in reality I would have dropped her long ago over the blood magic and consorting with demons. She had a good reason for wanting to use that magic BUT the path to hell is paved such.

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...

She wants to help and no price is too high. She doesn't want to hurt people, but her actions lead to people being hurt.

This is an absurd foundation for any kind of coherent ethical system.

If you're crossing a road and a careless driver running a red light causes a massive traffic accident by trying to dodge you at the last moment, does that reflect upon your moral character? Had you not been there, the careless driver would have passed by harmlessly; your actions - leaving your home and crossing the road - led people to be hurt. If people die in the accident, is it then reasonable to brand you as someone who is willing to kill dozens just to cross a road? Because that is the line of reasoning you're applying to Merrill.

It is sensible to hold someone accountable for the consequences of their actions only when those consequences are reasonably foreseeable. Otherwise, you might as well spend your life ripping the wings off butterflies to punish them for natural disasters.

[MColes]

She isn't INTENTIONALLY Ends justify the means. She's just too damn stupid to realize she's risking other people by her own actions. She isn't only risking herself, you're completely off if yout hink so. She just claims so foolishly that she knows what she's doing. She doesn't ACTUALLY know a damn thing about what she's doing.

She is a fool, and chaotic stupid.

[Foolsfolly]

If you're crossing a road and a careless driver running a red light causes a massive traffic accident by trying to dodge you at the last moment, does that reflect upon your moral character?

Merrill being a blood mage, making deals with demons, and putting all of her clan in danger is not an accident. She purposely did those things.

[MColes]

Gorthaur X wrote...

If you're crossing a road and a careless driver running a red light causes a massive traffic accident by trying to dodge you at the last moment, does that reflect upon your moral character? Had you not been there, the careless driver would have passed by harmlessly; your actions - leaving your home and crossing the road - led people to be hurt. If people die in the accident, is it then reasonable to brand you as someone who is willing to kill dozens just to cross a road? Because that is the line of reasoning you're applying to Merrill.

The Problem with your analogy, is that you're blaming the driver for running a light.  What if it's a padestrian trying to run across the highway, and THAT causes the accident.  THAT IS MERRILL. She doesn't care what other people are doing, or what they think is right, because she assumes falsely what she is doing is the correct course of action.  And then she ends up being horribly wrong.

[Sunfirecross]

I like how she wields blood magic and isn't an abomination and I liked the conflict she had with her people.

Also, dat welsh accent.

Modifié par Sunfirecross, 23 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Merrill being a blood mage, making deals with demons, and putting all of her clan in danger is not an accident. She purposely did those things.

You purposely crossed the road.

It is asinine to blame Merrill for the choices made by independent agents completely beyond Merrill's ability to reasonably predict, much less prevent.

None of the choices Merrill made put anybody in danger. That is a fact present by the game, the rest is just arbitrarily shifting blame.

[Gorthaur X]

MColes wrote...

The Problem with your analogy, is that you're blaming the driver for running a light.  What if it's a padestrian trying to run across the highway, and THAT causes the accident.  THAT IS MERRILL. She doesn't care what other people are doing, or what they think is right, because she assumes falsely what she is doing is the correct course of action.  And then she ends up being horribly wrong.

No. Merrill took great care to make sure that nobody else would get hurt as a result of her actions, to the point of having someone there to kill her. She was the one taking all the reasonable precautions - akin to the pedestrian crossing the street on a green light - being blindsided by someone whose actions were beyond her control - akin to the reckless driver.

Merrill was doing something incredibly dangerous for the benefit of her people, and from all indications, she would have succeeded at it. Yet when Marethari recklessly ruins everything, it's Merrill's fault.

[LightningOkami]

Merrill, to me, is just misunderstood, she wants to help everyone, she doesn't want to purposely hurt people, but she just takes the wrong paths and makes the wrong decisions along the way, but everyone makes mistakes.
I mean, she wanted to restore the mirror to gain something for her Race partly, she risked all their lives but deep down she was only trying to help, to make them proud of her. I really like her, she's so sweet =D

[Addai]

The Angry One wrote...

People assume Merril says demons are trustworthy and is naive about them because she states that the pride demon was nice to her, and that demons and spirits are essentially the same.

This presumes that nice = genuine and that demons and spirits being the same means that spirits are "good" and Merril therefore assumes demons are as good as spirits.
Neither is true. Merril never implies that demons are good, and what she says about spirits is correct. All Fade beings are bound by their nature, and you have to be equally cautious with all of them.

And yet she thinks she can use them and that they'll obey her and not get out of hand.  She's grabbing on to the tiger's tail hoping it won't turn.  And for what?

[szsleepy]

Vicious wrote...
Seriously, there's NO excuse. The warnings, danger, and risks with blood magic are COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Every Mage in Thedas knows they are bad news. 
.

And yet they flock to it in droves and claim "self defense".

Please.  I think Merrill has got it right.  I think her ignorance to human life and the fact that she's been sheltered by her clan for her entire life gives her a sense of perspective that makes her more alien than the Qunari.

[Foolsfolly]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Merrill being a blood mage, making deals with demons, and putting all of her clan in danger is not an accident. She purposely did those things.

You purposely crossed the road.

It is asinine to blame Merrill for the choices made by independent agents completely beyond Merrill's ability to reasonably predict, much less prevent.

None of the choices Merrill made put anybody in danger. That is a fact present by the game, the rest is just arbitrarily shifting blame.

None of it would have happened if Merrill didn't go to a demon and make a deal with it. That was the inciting incident to the entire Dalish Elf storyline. She is directly to blame for all the fallout of that first choice. The last domino is knocked over by the one before it but it's the hand that set the dominos falling that tipped it over.

The Keeper only did what she did because of her love for Merrill, which blinded her to her responsiblities for the entire clan. Merrill is to blame because she wanted to help them.

It's tragic but it's her actions that doomed the clan.

[Gorthaur X]

Addai67 wrote...
And yet she thinks she can use them and that they'll obey her and not get out of hand.  She's grabbing on to the tiger's tail hoping it won't turn.  And for what?

The survival of the Dalish people isn't reason enough for you?

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...
None of it would have happened if Merrill didn't go to a demon and make a deal with it. That was the inciting incident to the entire Dalish Elf storyline. She is directly to blame for all the fallout of that first choice. The last domino is knocked over by the one before it but it's the hand that set the dominos falling that tipped it over.

So you would consider yourself responsible for the hypothetical traffic accident, as well. Ok.

[Dr. Nexas]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Gorthaur X wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Merrill being a blood mage, making deals with demons, and putting all of her clan in danger is not an accident. She purposely did those things.

You purposely crossed the road.

It is asinine to blame Merrill for the choices made by independent agents completely beyond Merrill's ability to reasonably predict, much less prevent.

None of the choices Merrill made put anybody in danger. That is a fact present by the game, the rest is just arbitrarily shifting blame.

None of it would have happened if Merrill didn't go to a demon and make a deal with it. That was the inciting incident to the entire Dalish Elf storyline. She is directly to blame for all the fallout of that first choice. The last domino is knocked over by the one before it but it's the hand that set the dominos falling that tipped it over.

The Keeper only did what she did because of her love for Merrill, which blinded her to her responsiblities for the entire clan. Merrill is to blame because she wanted to help them.

It's tragic but it's her actions that doomed the clan.

Thats like saying Gregoir and Irving are responsible for the Chantry bombing because they were too easy on Anders. Sure if they had made him traquil or executed him years ago there wouldn't be a war right now, but these things are completely beyond our power of prediction. The butterfly effect is not justification to lay blame on someone. Merrill did everyting that was humanly elvenly possible to minimize the risk of her work to herself. The Keeper chose to insert herself and the clan back into the equation, by keeping the clan near Kirkwall, despite the fact that they should have left years ago, and because of that she and possibly the whole clan are dead.

[Foolsfolly]

So you would consider yourself responsible for the hypothetical traffic accident, as well. Ok.

If it's an accident no one's at fault. There's no accident when you make a Faustian deal with the devil. There's always a price to pay.

[szsleepy]

Hawke: Sounds like the Qunari take their reading seriously.
Isabella: Is there anything the Qunari don't take seriously?
Merrill: There must be something. Knock-knock jokes?

'Nuff said.

[LobselVith8]

JamesX wrote...

When adults tell children not to accept candy from strangers, you can argue that that is just adults being over protective and being presumptious.  Or you can say the adults are being sensible and making a sound judgement.  Not all strangers are evil and some might actually just want to give you candy because they are nice.  But not always.

You should not start the question assuming Merriel is correct.  Because the end she was wrong.  Mirror brought nothing but misery to her clan.  You can say if Marathari or the clan didn't act as they did things would have been different.  

We don't know Merrill was wrong, because we never see what would have happened between Merrill and Audacity. You can't argue that Merrill was wrong when the choice was taken entirely out of her hands by the Keeper of the clan.

She spends years restoring the Eluvian, removing the taint, putting it back together when it was in pieces, and she knows her intellectual aptitude in magic. Although some seem to criticize her because she's living in an entirely alien enviornment and has had little exposure to human culture as a member of the Dalish, she clearly holds her own with Hawke.

JamesX wrote...

But they did.  

So trying to restore the mirror still resulted in death and destruction with nothing to show for it.

Restoring the Eluvian was Merrill's decision. Choosing to sacrifice her life because she didn't want Merrill to even risk hers was the Keepers' decision. Both of them were adults, and you can't blame Merrill because the Keeper didn't want her to risk her life on a gamble that might benefit the Dalish people, or possibly end up with her getting killed as an abomination by Hawke.

Was anyone actually killed because of the Eluvian or Merrill's use of blood magic? Unless we factor in enemy combatants trying to murder her, the answer is no. There's no reason to blame Merrill for doing precisely what a Dalish should be doing - trying to restore a piece of her culture for the benefit of her people. It's the entire premise behind their culture, because one day they plan on sharing this knowledge with the elves who have forgotten all about it.

[Foolsfolly]

Thats like saying Gregoir and Irving are responsible for the Chantry bombing because they were too easy on Anders.

They're not to blame. Anders is because he joined with Justice willingly. Even if Anders had said that Justice forced him to blow up the Chantry it would still have been Anders' fault.

The big difference between blaming Irving for Anders' actions and blaming Merrill for the Keeper's actions is that one is directly related to the other. The Keeper reacted to Merrill's actions. The Clan reacted to Merrill's actions.

Merrill started a series of events and the blame is solely on her. Just like Loghain last game. Loghain wanted Eaman poisoned and hired Jowen to do it. Jowen's poisoning of the arl led to the arl's son making a deal with a Desire Demon which led to near destruction of Redcliffe. Blame for that action is Loghain's.

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...

If it's an accident no one's at fault. There's no accident when you make a Faustian deal with the devil. There's always a price to pay.

You knew that people die in traffic. You just didn't care, and now all those people are dead.

Just because you had to cross that road.