422 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Fine.

I blame Merrill.

I blame Isabella for the Qunari war.

The Mage/Templar War has too many causes to just have one cause. The others are simple.

Isabella stole the book and then ran off with it again when the whole thing could have been defused.

Merrill learned Blood Magic, disobeyed her Keeper, and caused the death of her clan.

Those who who I blame.

Go back to worshipping the infallible Merrill.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I think folly would have us believe that interacting with a demon at all constitutes "giving in."


Getting something you want and denying the demon what it wants = winning.

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Fine.

I blame Merrill.

I blame Isabella for the Qunari war.

The Mage/Templar War has too many causes to just have one cause. The others are simple.

Isabella stole the book and then ran off with it again when the whole thing could have been defused.

Merrill learned Blood Magic, disobeyed her Keeper, and caused the death of her clan.

Those who who I blame.

Go back to worshipping the infallible Merrill.

Quit being obtuse.
The fact that Merril has no blame for what happene to the Keeper does not make her infallible. It simply means that the Keeper has her own damn mind and did what she wanted to do regardless of what Merril did.
You just refuse to accept the fact that an action taken in reaction is still an action you're responsible for.

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Original deal with Audacity to learn blood magic. And the Fade Pride Demon, yes.

And the Mage Origin doesn't have the Warden giving in to that Pride demon. You prove it's a demon, it laughs and says something along the lines that he'll be waiting....there's always going to be temptation.

If learning blood magic from Audacity counts as giving in to it, then so does the Mage Warden accepting help from Valor or Sloth during the Harrowing, or using Coercion to ask for a boon from Connor's Desire Demon.

None of these things "corrupt" the Warden.

If anything, you're shooting your own argument in the foot by equating Merrill's study of blood magic with the deal she was about to negotiate with Audacity, since we know that no harm came out of her blood magic.

[Foolsfolly]

You people are impossible.

Blood magic is forbidden even among the Dalish for a reason. The people who used it are the Tevinter Magisters and nothing about what they do is good or morally justified. Just because the Warden and Hawke can learn Blood Magic doesn't make it good.

She gave in to the demon to learn a forbidden magic.

Directly in front of you she sides with a demon in the Fade.

Every one of you are taking her at her word that she knows what she's doing and can resist a demon when experience tells you she cannot.

Keep believing that. And keep believing that her actions exist in a vacuum and affect no one around her.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You people are impossible.

Does that mean you'll stop harangueing us, then?  Please say yes.   (/Isabella)

[EDarkness]

I liked Merrill and end up romancing her as she was really the only option worth a damn. That said, the whole mirror thing was stupid and I had simply decided that she was too blind to see the crap in front of her even though everyone (including myself) was telling her to leave it alone. The only way she was going to really learn was to get hurt, so I left her to it. When the keeper did what she did, I was shocked, but not all that surprised. The Keeper loved Merrill probably more than anyone else and like Merrill was willing to give up her life for someone she loved.

I don't know if it was smart to make a deal with the demon, but it was the only real way to take away the "matches" so that Merrill wouldn't get burned. Merrill didn't want anyone to get hurt, but there was no way that was going to happen. If Merrill died while dealing with the demon, then the people who loved her would be hurt.

My overall opinion of Merrill is that she really doesn't know how to deal with people. Though, she gets along well with Varric, but I think he understands her situation probably more than anyone else. Though, I can't help but feel like the devs didn't really give us enough time to solidify the relationship with Merrill. She told Hawke she loved him, but I never really felt like she did. Unlike Morrigan or Leliana who really make you feel like they care about your character.

Even so, I can also see why people don't like her. She does do some things that make you smack your forehead.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Gaider has said that blood magic is not inherently evil--it's just riskier and has greater potential for corruption. He's also said that the Dalish, because they are more familiar with spirits, are better equipped to handle some of the more dangerous demons. This was way back during DA:O but it still applies.

Nobody's saying her actions exist in a vacuum--we're saying it's utterly hypocritical to suggest that Merrill's the only one who ought to take responsibility for anything. Marethari's the one that made the disastrous choice. What would have happened if she didn't? At worst, Merrill would have been possessed rather than Marethari, but we already know we could kill the Pride Demon. Would the clan be lost then? No.

Of course, Merrill had no intention of just lying down and letting it take her, like Marethari did.

As far as the Fade, that's silly. It's a Pride Demon empowered by the presence of a dreamer. Moreover, Hawke can also side with the demons. So what?

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You people are impossible.

Blood magic is forbidden even among the Dalish for a reason. The people who used it are the Tevinter Magisters and nothing about what they do is good or morally justified. Just because the Warden and Hawke can learn Blood Magic doesn't make it good.

I think the Warden mages using blood magic to fight the darkspawn for the benefit and protection of all the sentient races of Thedas is pretty good. We can also factor in how blood magic provides us with the Wardens in the first place, which allows the Blights to come to an end since the Wardens can be created and then kill the Archdemon. I'd argue that stopping the apocalypse and the further corruption of the surface is relatively good, all things considered.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 mars 2011 - 05:03 .

[The Angry One]

Learning from a demon does not count as giving in. Benefitting the demon is giving in, and there's nothing to show Merril ever reached that point.
And again, Merril can't be held responsible for what others do in response to her actions. Marethari chose a BAD response. Merril didn't force her, nor did she only allow Marethari one option - she had several and she took the worst one. That was Marethari's fault alone.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

I think Merrill showed catastrophic misjudgment; bad things only happen to other people when they mess with blood magic but not her..my group ended up slaughtering her entire clan; I had no idea it was going to go that bad. I wanted to hate her for that; to me, she was obsessed with the mirror because of what happened to Tamlen at first; then she became obsessed because of the demon's influence. Realistically, what did she think she was going to do with the d*mn thing? Watch reruns of Dalish with Children? What benefit was that thing supposed to have? It's a magic freaking mirror. What does it do? I don't know but I have to put it back together. Her entire clan paid the price for her obsession and stupidity messing with blood magic. I liked her as a character up until that happened; then, I was ready to throw her off a bridge.

[LobselVith8]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

I think Merrill showed catastrophic misjudgment; bad things only happen to other people when they mess with blood magic but not her..my group ended up slaughtering her entire clan; I had no idea it was going to go that bad. I wanted to hate her for that; to me, she was obsessed with the mirror because of what happened to Tamlen at first; then she became obsessed because of the demon's influence. Realistically, what did she think she was going to do with the d*mn thing? Watch reruns of Dalish with Children? What benefit was that thing supposed to have? It's a magic freaking mirror. What does it do? I don't know but I have to put it back together. Her entire clan paid the price for her obsession and stupidity messing with blood magic. I liked her as a character up until that happened; then, I was ready to throw her off a bridge.

So the clan trying to murder Merrill because you revealed to them the Keeper was an abomination is all Merrill's fault? I'm pretty sure the Keeper was an adult and old enough to make her own decisions, and so were all the clan members who decide to try to murder her unless Hawke takes full responsibility for what happened.

[Talladarr]

Drake Averrod wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The thing with Wynne and the faith spirit is that nothing ever happens to her to question "faith".
She believes, and no events in the game happen that would put that spirit at odds so it happily exists with her.... oh, unless you desecrate Andraste's ashes of course.
Then she violently turns against you.

Precisely.

And, anyway, why is Wynne being brought up when we have such an obvious example of so-called "good spirits" corrupting just as much as demons in the form of Justice.

I don't see how someone can argue the "good spirit" point after DA2.

I thought it was the other way around. Iirc Anders corrupted Justice by hating Templars.

WHoa whoa whoa! If you listen t othe Justice-Anders party banter in Awakening, Justice suggests killing Templars LONG before they became one.

[LightningOkami]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

I think Merrill showed catastrophic misjudgment; bad things only happen to other people when they mess with blood magic but not her..my group ended up slaughtering her entire clan; I had no idea it was going to go that bad. I wanted to hate her for that; to me, she was obsessed with the mirror because of what happened to Tamlen at first; then she became obsessed because of the demon's influence. Realistically, what did she think she was going to do with the d*mn thing? Watch reruns of Dalish with Children? What benefit was that thing supposed to have? It's a magic freaking mirror. What does it do? I don't know but I have to put it back together. Her entire clan paid the price for her obsession and stupidity messing with blood magic. I liked her as a character up until that happened; then, I was ready to throw her off a bridge.

So the clan trying to murder Merrill because you revealed to them the Keeper was an abomination is all Merrill's fault? I'm pretty sure the Keeper was an adult and old enough to make her own decisions, and so were all the clan members who decide to try to murder her unless Hawke takes full responsibility for what happened.

I agree, i mean, the Keeper was the 'Leader' of the clan, her decision was hers alone, she did it to save Merrill and the rest of the clan should've just stood back and let the Keeper make her own choice. o.o They didn't even really give Merrill a chance to explain what happened either without setting their minds onto "Kill her!!" D:

[Kartikeya]

I have no idea why it must be all one person's fault and that person's alone. Pretty sure there's plenty of blame to be spread around in this scenario.

I'm also not sure why, even if it was entirely Merrill's fault (and I don't believe it was), that means she's an eeeevil blood mage. I haven't really seen anyone but the folks defending her make that assertion. Believing that making deals with demons (which is hammered in over and over and over and over again throughout both games that this is generally a Bad Idea and the demon tends to win out in the end) is not really the wisest course of action doesn't mean you think the person who does it is evil. It means you think they're perhaps not making the best decisions.

And saying 'perhaps this isn't the wisest decision' to Merrill is a guaranteed way for her to stop listening to you. You just don't understand/aren't open minded enough/think she's a child/etc etc etc. Merrill making a mistake or being pigheaded doesn't mean she's evil. Believing that you're entirely right and that you know exactly what you're doing and can't possibly be mistaken in your methods is a really bad trait to have when it comes to dealing with demons though. They love that ****. It makes you really easy to manipulate. The closest Merrill comes to realizing this prior to the whole thing going kaboom is that she allows that it's definitely a possibility that she'll become an abomination...but that's okay because Hawke will just fix the problem for her, she knows for sure it can't possibly get out of hand. And if Hawke won't help? She'll go do it herself anyway, WITHOUT any backup.

Merrill's not stupid about demons or spirits. But she's certainly not wise. Hopefully, in time.

[Talladarr]

I'm sorry, but Merrill has one of the best fade spirit philosophies I've ever heard, they're ALL dangerous, and as long as you're EXTREMELY careful dealing with spirits of ANY kind, it's okay, but don't try to say she's reckless. Also, I'm sure this has been said more than once, but blood magic doesn't automatically make you evil, just because blood magic CAN be used for mind domination doesn't mean it automatically WILL be used for such. There's just certain things, like cleansing things of taint, that only blood magic can do.

I'm pretty sure this has been covered too, but in the Fade, I think only Anders stays strait to that Pride demon. Like the demon said, He was the "strongest of his kind". Demons are very powerful, so it takes some serious balls to claim to be the strongest.

[szsleepy]

Talladarr wrote...

He was the "strongest of his kind". 

I'm sure all Pride demons say that.  It's in their nature.  Just like I'm sure all Hunger demons claim to enjoy McDonald's.

[Sharn01]

I am confused as to why people keep blaming Merrill for what the keeper did? She intentionally let the demon take control of her, she could not be positive that the demon would take control of Merrill, who asked Hawke to kill her if that happened, we will never know if Merrill could have resisted the demon because the keeper didnt give her the chance. She loved Merrill to much to let that possibility happen, so she made sure it would not happen by taking the worst thing that could happen to Merrill and allowed it to happen to herself.

The clan lived in my game, if your so upset about it maybe you should reload, this isnt mass effect after all, get out of the habit of hitting the upper right option and thinking its always going to be the best choice for a good character.

[cglasgow]

If that Pride demon was really 'the strongest of its kind', then man, they are way wimpier than I thought they were. 

[The Angry One]

Some people like to play the blame game, as if people are directly responsible for chains of events that others contribute to.
So Keeper Marethari died because she let herself get possessed, because Merril refused to give up on consorting with the demon.. because Marethari refused to help her.. because Merril was single-minded about the Eluvian.. because Tamlen and the Dalish Warden found it... because the humans told them about the ruin it was in... because Keeper Marethari sent them out on patrol.

Hey look! I played the blame game and the ultimate culprit is... Keeper Marethari!

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[josiah8188]

The Angry One wrote...

Some people like to play the blame game, as if people are directly responsible for chains of events that others contribute to.
So Keeper Marethari died because she let herself get possessed, because Merril refused to give up on consorting with the demon.. because Marethari refused to help her.. because Merril was single-minded about the Eluvian.. because Tamlen and the Dalish Warden found it... because the humans told them about the ruin it was in... because Keeper Marethari sent them out on patrol.

Hey look! I played the blame game and the ultimate culprit is... Keeper Marethari!

Taken to its logical conclusion (based on currently know evidence) it's the humans fault for coming from the north and meeting the elves.

[cglasgow]

No, its the elven gods' fault for getting locked in the heavens and away from their people.

By the Dread Wolf!  Is there anything that damned trickster didn't screw up?  :innocent:

[MrStorm2K]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Gaider has said that blood magic is not inherently evil--it's just riskier and has greater potential for corruption.

Has Gaider said anything is inherently evil?

Perhaps that's the more revealing question.

[The Angry One]

It's David Gaider's fault for writing the world into being in the first place!

[Emperor Iaius I]

MrStorm2K wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Gaider has said that blood magic is not inherently evil--it's just riskier and has greater potential for corruption.

Has Gaider said anything is inherently evil?

Perhaps that's the more revealing question.

Probably not. But that just means context is everything.

Also, I'm sure he's never said this, but I personally am convinced that Andraste is evil.