422 réponses à ce sujet

[szsleepy]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

MrStorm2K wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Gaider has said that blood magic is not inherently evil--it's just riskier and has greater potential for corruption.

Has Gaider said anything is inherently evil?

Perhaps that's the more revealing question.

Probably not. But that just means context is everything.

Also, I'm sure he's never said this, but I personally am convinced that Andraste is evil.

Andraste's wiggling rump, human!  How could you say such a thing?

[Kaiser Shepard]

cglasgow wrote...

No, its the elven gods' fault for getting locked in the heavens and away from their people.

By the Dread Wolf!  Is there anything that damned trickster didn't screw up?  :innocent:

Assuming that Fen'harel, the single remaining elvhen god, eventually became known "The Maker" and now continues to manipulate our characters as a certain Witch of the Wilds... I'd say everything is going according to plan.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kartikeya wrote...

I wish I had the text with me, but I don't. I remember it being something like 'whoever replaced me was probably much better, etc etc'. Where would Marethari get a replacement from?

From other clans that would pass by.

Merrill's former clan doesn't have to move to get a new First.

And try at any point to argue that one shouldn't trust demons in Merrill's presence, especially when you say it to her. Rivalry. Yes, she schools Anders about Justice. Why does this mean she can't also have her own Fade spirit blind spots?

It doesn't. The citations about what those blind spots are supposed to be, however, are generally weak.

I don't think Merrill believes demons are awesome and should be trusted. I do think she is far more trusting of demons than she should be, especially given the risks she's taking. She knows she shouldn't trust them. She's still more willing to believe what they say than is wise, and I'm not talking about the Night Terrors quest here. Further, she's stubborn, so anyone trying to say this to her just doesn't understand or is just treating her like a child, and she puts her back up.

In what sense does she listen more than is wise, any more than any other person? She likes to hear the deals out. That, in and of itself, is not support for any and every deal.

Many of the poeple who criticize Merrill have less understanding about the nature of the Fade than she does. Like, for example, Anders himself. She has as much right as anyone to dismiss them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kartikeya wrote...
I'm not sure why the amount of time that ends up passing between these two decisions is a factor.

Really? You can't see why a half decade of time and separation changes responsibilities?

I'm certain you would not take kindly if your were blamed for not fulfilling the responsibilities of a job you left six years ago.

At any time she could have given it up and gone back and done what she was supposed to be doing, and she didn't.

Why would she be obligated. She left. They accepted her leaving. Both sides had plenty of time to move on.

Likewise, Marethari sat around for six years ignoring what was best for her clan in favor of hoping that somehow, some way, she could protect Merrill from what she felt was an inevitable tragedy (and hoping that she'd return too). At any time she could have given that up and got her clan out of there, got a new First, and new Halla.

They needed the Halla to move, not vice versa.

[ginzaen]

isn't obvious? some people like her some don't. Just like real life different people appeal to different people.

Modifié par ginzaen, 23 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Joy Divison]

Surely the OP meant Anders, not Merrill. Anders, the abomination and unrestrainable killer, lecturing Merrill how there are "good" spirits is rather amusing.

What Merrill understands that Anders never did is that fixing the mirror could very well led to her becoming Anders and that is why she begs Hawke to kill her if that happens.

[cglasgow]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They needed the Halla to move, not vice versa.

True, but cripes, she can get a new First in six years but not any new halla?  And how'd they lose all their old halla, anyway?   Somebody screwed the pooch there, and it wasn't Merrill.

[Parrk]

Merrill may not appeal to you, but many many people find her insanely attractive.

I love the rambling. I think the voice is utterly perfect. She has an "unjaded" kind of not-yet-ruined-by-the-ugliness-of-the-world kind of quality.

[dreman9999]

Go to 2:28...... She's more deep than you think.

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Every one of you are taking her at her word that she knows what she's doing and can resist a demon when experience tells you she cannot.

Well, no. We're taking her actions and choices and evaluating them in the context of what the game actually shows.

You're evaluating them in the context of what the Chantry says about blood magic. But the Chantry is an institution within the story, and its dogma is not necessarily any more inherently true than the dogma of, say, the Qun.

You're the one taking fallible characters at their word even when their word is contradicted or unsupported by the story itself, not us.

[Naitaka]

Wait, when did the keeper take the demon in herself? I've always thought she did it much earlier than the confrontation in Act 3 and that's the reason why she couldn't leave Sundermount. The demon being bounded to the place.

[Gorthaur X]

I don't think it's ever explicitly stated.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem I have with Merrill is her lack of concern for her fellow city elves. She has no idea what the mirror will do? She assumes she can control it. She mentions that the mirror took Tamlen and he never returned. She knows the mirror is a pathway which could lead out as well as in.
We know that the demon was trying to use it as an escape route. She would have unleashed a very powerful demon in the midst of the city, possibly losing her life and others in the process.

[LobselVith8]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The problem I have with Merrill is her lack of concern for her fellow city elves. She has no idea what the mirror will do? She assumes she can control it. She mentions that the mirror took Tamlen and he never returned. She knows the mirror is a pathway which could lead out as well as in.

It was corrupted when Tamlen encountered it, and she cleansed it. That won't be an issue. We also have no idea what precautions Merrill would take if she realized she could get it to work since it's never fixed.

Realmzmaster wrote...

We know that the demon was trying to use it as an escape route. She would have unleashed a very powerful demon in the midst of the city, possibly losing her life and others in the process.

I'm not certain a demon controlled abomination is the best source of trustworthy information.

[Naitaka]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The problem I have with Merrill is her lack of concern for her fellow city elves. She has no idea what the mirror will do? She assumes she can control it. She mentions that the mirror took Tamlen and he never returned. She knows the mirror is a pathway which could lead out as well as in.

It was corrupted when Tamlen encountered it, and she cleansed it. That won't be an issue. We also have no idea what precautions Merrill would take if she realized she could get it to work since it's never fixed.

Realmzmaster wrote...

We know that the demon was trying to use it as an escape route. She would have unleashed a very powerful demon in the midst of the city, possibly losing her life and others in the process.

I'm not certain a demon controlled abomination is the best source of trustworthy information.

And I'm not sure the cleansing taught by a demon is really clensing at all...

[LobselVith8]

Naitaka wrote...

And I'm not sure the cleansing taught by a demon is really clensing at all...

Since Merrill wasn't infected with the Blight like her two clanmates were, the Eluvian seems to have been cleansed.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[cglasgow]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The problem I have with Merrill is her lack of concern for her fellow city elves. She has no idea what the mirror will do? She assumes she can control it. She mentions that the mirror took Tamlen and he never returned. She knows the mirror is a pathway which could lead out as well as in.

As pointed out earlier, by myself and others, we have every reason to believe that Merrill wouldn't just turn the thing on like a blind retard.  She had the sense to invite Hawke along merely when she wanted to talk to the demon; do you really think she wouldn't have the whole Abomination Kill Crew standing around when she actually came time to open the Fade portal?  Seriously?

[Poubo]

this was 1 character i could not get my head round, and yet i know people with that personality, i dont know how old the character is supposed to be, but she acts like a rebellious 18 year old, you know the kind who think they know best, despite what their parents / friends / teachers / siblings / councilers tell them...

seeing as though hawke is seen as an older person = mid 20's to 30's throughout the playthrough, and playing as someone with a mage sister, i felt obligated to protect her from herself. which doesnt sit well with her, i didnt do her personal quests after the tool for the mirror because i knew it would just get worse, i just had that feeling. and she ended up wanting to sleep with my character at the end with full rivalry... funny how things work out eh?

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

And I'm not sure the cleansing taught by a demon is really clensing at all...

Since Merrill wasn't infected with the Blight like her two clanmates were, the Eluvian seems to have been cleansed.

According to Avernus, demons don't have power over the taint. Also, apparently Duncan believed that shattering the mirror was enough to make it stop spreading the taint. So it's prefectly possible that the demon can't have a way to cleanse it, and even is possible that it actually was already free of the taint.

Both things make me think the demon is just using the Eluvian to manipulate Merrill into freeing it.

Remember, the reason you go to Sundermount to meet the demon is because she has done everything that was (in theory) needed to fix it and still isn't working.

Modifié par Ahriman Dragonhand, 23 mars 2011 - 06:38 .

[DirewolfX]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

No, its the elven gods' fault for getting locked in the heavens and away from their people.

By the Dread Wolf!  Is there anything that damned trickster didn't screw up?  :innocent:

Assuming that Fen'harel, the single remaining elvhen god, eventually became known "The Maker" and now continues to manipulate our characters as a certain Witch of the Wilds... I'd say everything is going according to plan.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. 

[R-F]

She is literally the only selfless mage in the game. What she does is motivated by the love she has for her people, and although her actions are questionable she never wavers in that motivation.

Sure she is naive, but my god shes noble. Plus shes cute and a history buff which is great.

[Kabraxal]

I didn't realise taking 5+ years to research and prepare for cleansing the mirror and dealing with a demon makes one foolish and stupid. I mean, Merrill totally walked into the situation blind... yep. Totally her fault that she comes prepared and willing to be killed only for the foolish Keeper to have long since bargained with the demon.

Yep, the Keeper had no blame at all in that. Nope. Nuh uh.

/sarcasm

[Thomas Andresen]

If this thread proves anything, it's how well BioWare conveyed the "cultural rift" between Dalish and human society.

The Dalish don't differentiate spirits and demons, period. During one of her exchanges with Anders, she actually explained why, and I quite agree. In fact, I think Anders is far worse off, since he is actually possessed, while Merrill has only made a deal with a spirit. The Keeper didn't disapprove of Merrill's exchange with the spirit because she made a deal, but because she saw the spirit's intentions. The first time Merrill interacted with the spirit, it was when the Keeper sought it out.

It was pride that was Merrill's downfall, and I'd say that emotion blinding sense aren't too uncommon, but I wouldn't call it downright stupidity. And it's much more bearable than Aveline's ... single-mindedness doesn't cover it ... I'm almost certain that if she hadn't been so persistent about her two elves, the situation with the Qunari might have evolved quite differently, the Arishok was already on the verge of snapping, and I think that Aveline was the final drop. Sure, there might inevitably be another incident to make him explode, but Aveline still rushed it.

No, the only real problem I have with Merrill's arc is that, if you play the romance, the scene in her house that's supposed to trigger only after you kill the Keeper, automatically triggers before you can talk to her for the "A Talking To" quest. But that's a bug, obviously, and it's not really game-breaking, as you still get the quest to visit the cave up on Sundermount.

[Talvrae]

Taleroth wrote...

Vicious wrote...
the Keeper begged you NOT to give her the tool, and she is most assuredly not a shemlen.

But she is an abomination.  Funny that you keep saying she should take advice from abominations.

She isisnt, she is not posseded. She is a Blood Mage not the same.


And yeah she say Demons arent evils... But she also say no sperits are good, she have a more nuanced view of spirits and demons than anyone else. And she ask Hawke to kill her if she become an abomination, she is not blind of the dangers, but think she can assume them, and that she was ready to pay the price for them

[Addai]

Kabraxal wrote...

I didn't realise taking 5+ years to research and prepare for cleansing the mirror and dealing with a demon makes one foolish and stupid. I mean, Merrill totally walked into the situation blind... yep. Totally her fault that she comes prepared and willing to be killed only for the foolish Keeper to have long since bargained with the demon.

Yep, the Keeper had no blame at all in that. Nope. Nuh uh.

/sarcasm

She's not cleansing it, she's trying to start it up again.  In order to cleanse it she presumably took the tainted mirror and trusted a demon that it could be cleansed.  She got damn lucky, and in trying to restart it she's pushing that luck.  She really has no idea what she's doing, contrary to her assurances otherwise.  Nobody does.  Meanwhile the demon is keeping her on the hook, and she keeps going back for more and more.

I wouldn't call it stupid so much as foolish.