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[The Angry One]

heman14 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

She is Tali 2.0

No she isn't.  Tali may be awkward and a bit geeky, but is not completely oblivious to the obvious and is much stronger emotionally. 

The sweetness in Merill's innocense (which is what I think BW was going for) is completely overshadowed by her overzealous 'I'm doing it my way save the Dalish at all costs" attitude.

Are you joking?
Tali's ENTIRE defense in the Quarian fleet events is that she's an ignoramous. That she somehow didn't think sending restorable Geth parts to the fleet would end badly.
And stronger emotionally? This is the same woman who will hate you forever for rightfully exposing the crimes of her father and not risking her total exile from her own people (that the almighty Shep can Renegade/Paragon away of course)

[Maria Caliban]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Well, I've already explained the behavioral distinction between the two.  Demonic entities are by far more dangerous than spirits, as they attempt to actively possess mortals, leave the Fade, and exert influence on the mortal realm.  Merrill's classification of "demons" as "spirits" marginalizes the dangers these creatures pose to the world, and is most likely a means of justifying her dealings with them.

Yes, there are a large number of spirits who take no interest in the mortal realm. However, if you're a mage dealing with *any* spirit, you're not dealing with an indifferent and apathetic one.

Think of it this way: Fire and water are both dangerous. Fire is more consistently dangerous but seeing one as dangerous and another as benign is foolishness.

At no time does Merrill say that demons are *not* a danger.

[Bann Duncan]

All spirits, "good" or "bad", are physiologically the same. They are one-dimensional and consumed by whatever the attribute in question is.

Remember that the opposite of love is not hate, but apathy. The same thing applies to spirits and their traits.

[The Angry One]

The thing with Wynne and the faith spirit is that nothing ever happens to her to question "faith".
She believes, and no events in the game happen that would put that spirit at odds so it happily exists with her.... oh, unless you desecrate Andraste's ashes of course.
Then she violently turns against you.

[Bann Duncan]

The Angry One wrote...

The thing with Wynne and the faith spirit is that nothing ever happens to her to question "faith".
She believes, and no events in the game happen that would put that spirit at odds so it happily exists with her.... oh, unless you desecrate Andraste's ashes of course.
Then she violently turns against you.

Precisely.

And, anyway, why is Wynne being brought up when we have such an obvious example of so-called "good spirits" corrupting just as much as demons in the form of Justice.

I don't see how someone can argue the "good spirit" point after DA2.

[Drake Averrod]

Bann Duncan wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The thing with Wynne and the faith spirit is that nothing ever happens to her to question "faith".
She believes, and no events in the game happen that would put that spirit at odds so it happily exists with her.... oh, unless you desecrate Andraste's ashes of course.
Then she violently turns against you.

Precisely.

And, anyway, why is Wynne being brought up when we have such an obvious example of so-called "good spirits" corrupting just as much as demons in the form of Justice.

I don't see how someone can argue the "good spirit" point after DA2.

I thought it was the other way around. Iirc Anders corrupted Justice by hating Templars.

[Bann Duncan]

Drake Averrod wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The thing with Wynne and the faith spirit is that nothing ever happens to her to question "faith".
She believes, and no events in the game happen that would put that spirit at odds so it happily exists with her.... oh, unless you desecrate Andraste's ashes of course.
Then she violently turns against you.

Precisely.

And, anyway, why is Wynne being brought up when we have such an obvious example of so-called "good spirits" corrupting just as much as demons in the form of Justice.

I don't see how someone can argue the "good spirit" point after DA2.

I thought it was the other way around. Iirc Anders corrupted Justice by hating Templars.

Spirits are only one quality taken to the extreme. A spirit cannot inhabit a body without affecting the host and being affected by the host, because people are multifaceted.

[heman14]

The Angry One wrote...

heman14 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

She is Tali 2.0

No she isn't.  Tali may be awkward and a bit geeky, but is not completely oblivious to the obvious and is much stronger emotionally. 

The sweetness in Merill's innocense (which is what I think BW was going for) is completely overshadowed by her overzealous 'I'm doing it my way save the Dalish at all costs" attitude.

Are you joking?
Tali's ENTIRE defense in the Quarian fleet events is that she's an ignoramous. That she somehow didn't think sending restorable Geth parts to the fleet would end badly.
And stronger emotionally? This is the same woman who will hate you forever for rightfully exposing the crimes of her father and not risking her total exile from her own people (that the almighty Shep can Renegade/Paragon away of course)

Tali was trying to help her father and believed him.  She genuinly did not know what was happening in her situation.  It's ignorance based on lack of knowledge of the situation. 

Merill knew full well what she was doing, she knew being a blood mage was like being evil incarnate, but chose to be one anyway.  She ignored advice at every turn like a rebellious teenager because she thought she was right.  This is ignorance due to full knowledge of the situation...which is reckless.

It'd be a better comparison if Tali was recklessly conducting her own research and experiments on live geth while everyone was telling her to stop...or if Merill was acting under the advice of the Keeper, who herself would have been a blood mage and working with a demon unbeknownst to Merill. 

[Bann Duncan]

heman14 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

heman14 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

She is Tali 2.0

No she isn't.  Tali may be awkward and a bit geeky, but is not completely oblivious to the obvious and is much stronger emotionally. 

The sweetness in Merill's innocense (which is what I think BW was going for) is completely overshadowed by her overzealous 'I'm doing it my way save the Dalish at all costs" attitude.

Are you joking?
Tali's ENTIRE defense in the Quarian fleet events is that she's an ignoramous. That she somehow didn't think sending restorable Geth parts to the fleet would end badly.
And stronger emotionally? This is the same woman who will hate you forever for rightfully exposing the crimes of her father and not risking her total exile from her own people (that the almighty Shep can Renegade/Paragon away of course)

Tali was trying to help her father and believed him.  She genuinly did not know what was happening in her situation.  It's ignorance based on lack of knowledge of the situation. 

Merill knew full well what she was doing, she knew being a blood mage was like being evil incarnate, but chose to be one anyway.  She ignored advice at every turn like a rebellious teenager because she thought she was right.  This is ignorance due to full knowledge of the situation...which is reckless.

It'd be a better comparison if Tali was recklessly conducting her own research and experiments on live geth while everyone was telling her to stop...or if Merill was acting under the advice of the Keeper, who herself would have been a blood mage and working with a demon unbeknownst to Merill. 

Lack of knowledge?! She is a quarian technical genius who was able to deconstruct a geth head during her pilgrimage and who fought thousands of them alongside Shepard.

She was well-aware that geth parts were dangerous and not permanently inactive. That is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

[christrek1982]

The Angry One wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Moreover you're saying she ignores advice from Anders. No really? How could she ignore the advice of an abomination

She ignores advice from EVERYONE, until her foolishness leads to a catastrophic end with her Keeper and [possibly] her Clan.

Made an edit above about the other advisors she ignores.
In any case she thinks it's worth the risk to recover ancient technology that would help her people.
Maybe if the Keeper hadn't been so rigid in her beliefs it wouldn't have ended so horribly.

if you listen to the other in the camp when you first go there they say that she is still morning her freind one was the warden the other was the one that was lost in the ruins so I think she hope to get her freind back.  I think this is the underpinning reason for her ditermanasion and stubern will with the mirror.

Modifié par christrek1982, 22 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[The Angry One]

Justice reacted to his enviroment, not to Anders. Because he inhabits Anders he was directly exposed to the oppression of mages.
Anders says it himself, the concept of "justice" is never happy. It demands an accounting for wrongs done, and it can't get that in Kirkwall. So it enrages more and more and becomes vengeance.
This is every bit as dangerous as a demon. Perhaps more so, because you don't really expect that as Justice sounds "good" on the surface.

[Argeld]

Vicious wrote...

Too bad it's common knowledge some spirits are just 'there' and others actually seek to corrupt and eat mages for the purpose of creating abominations. This is common knowledge, but she doesn't act like it isn't, she just refuses to believe it, despite proof being shoved in her face again, and again, and again.

It isn't 'common knowledge', it is human belief structure. I mean all the stuff about the Maker and Andraste is 'common knowledge' too but there's no evidence for it. Merrill's conversations with Anders should be evidence enough that not everyone in Thedas is of one mind when it comes to the nature of Fade spirits, "demons" or otherwise.

[Heather Cline]

Merrill is naive and sheltered when you meet her. Also Flemeth warns Merrill that the path she is on is dangerous because she has her metaphorical eyes shut. She hasn't experienced enough to see reality as it is. It is through Marethari's death that Merrill finally realizes that she was on the wrong path. That what she was doing was wrong. She grows as a character, changes and finally comes to the conclusion that consorting with demons is not a good idea.

Does she seem a bit sheltered and stupid? Yes, but that is due to how she had lived her life before meeting Hawke. After meeting Hawke she starts to see the truth about blood magic and demons but it isn't until Marethari's death that it's driven home.

I like Merrill because she is unique, she grows and changes and at the end she has opened her eyes to reality. Yes she is naive, and yes she is sheltered, but that is part of her charm.

[Maria Caliban]

Heather Cline wrote...

It is through Marethari's death that Merrill finally realizes that she was on the wrong path. That what she was doing was wrong.

Only if you're on the rivalry path. If you're on the friendship path, she keeps the mirror and continues to be a blood mage.

[Heather Cline]

In my playthrough on the friendship path she destroys it after Marethari's death. Also she can't stop being a blood mage on either path. It's apart of her skill tree set.

[LordAsael]

I think that all of these characters are meant to have a fairly strong reaction to them and a mix of thoughts. I think the devs would be disappointed if any character and their agenda/actions were universally accepted by the community.

Our reactions to the characters are meant to be based upon our personal beliefs and desires. Anders is loved as a freedom fighter and despised as a terrorist. Those titles are often two-sides of the same coin. Merrill is much the same, she breaks rules that put herself and the world at risk in order to restore her people as a proud race. Is that right? Does that make her foolish? It's up for each of us to decide.

[sarahN7]

I found Merrill to be naive. She knows what the dangers of what she is doing are. However, because her intentions (to help her clan) are so strong, she is in denial that it will actually go poorly. Then when you deny her this, she becomes obsessed and desperate, definately not thinking straight and goes the demon route. I don't think she's retarded or evil, just misguided. I see very real qualities in her and suspect that is the very reason many people like her as much as they do.

[heman14]

Bann Duncan wrote...

heman14 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

heman14 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

She is Tali 2.0

No she isn't.  Tali may be awkward and a bit geeky, but is not completely oblivious to the obvious and is much stronger emotionally. 

The sweetness in Merill's innocense (which is what I think BW was going for) is completely overshadowed by her overzealous 'I'm doing it my way save the Dalish at all costs" attitude.

Are you joking?
Tali's ENTIRE defense in the Quarian fleet events is that she's an ignoramous. That she somehow didn't think sending restorable Geth parts to the fleet would end badly.
And stronger emotionally? This is the same woman who will hate you forever for rightfully exposing the crimes of her father and not risking her total exile from her own people (that the almighty Shep can Renegade/Paragon away of course)

Tali was trying to help her father and believed him.  She genuinly did not know what was happening in her situation.  It's ignorance based on lack of knowledge of the situation. 

Merill knew full well what she was doing, she knew being a blood mage was like being evil incarnate, but chose to be one anyway.  She ignored advice at every turn like a rebellious teenager because she thought she was right.  This is ignorance due to full knowledge of the situation...which is reckless.

It'd be a better comparison if Tali was recklessly conducting her own research and experiments on live geth while everyone was telling her to stop...or if Merill was acting under the advice of the Keeper, who herself would have been a blood mage and working with a demon unbeknownst to Merill. 

Lack of knowledge?! She is a quarian technical genius who was able to deconstruct a geth head during her pilgrimage and who fought thousands of them alongside Shepard.

She was well-aware that geth parts were dangerous and not permanently inactive. That is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

Good point.  Still doesn't change the fact that she didn't know what her father was doing with the parts.

Tali was acting on the wishes of her father...whom she trusted blindly.  It' was foolish sure, but it wasn't a self motivated reckless act.  She was more of a pawn in the situation. 

Merill was working on all on her own.  Recklessly defying everyone at every turn.

[LobselVith8]

heman14 wrote...

Merill knew full well what she was doing, she knew being a blood mage was like being evil incarnate, but chose to be one anyway. 

The perception of blood mages is a matter of opinion, not fact. We know there are Grey Wardens who use blood magic, and even the Hero of Ferelden can adopt such magic for the same reasons the Warden mages who are referenced by Duncan use it: to battle the darkspawn. It's a powerful form of magic, and Merrill needed to cleanse the corrupted Eluvian.

heman14 wrote...

She ignored advice at every turn like a rebellious teenager because she thought she was right.  This is ignorance due to full knowledge of the situation...which is reckless.

It's not ignorance to do what you think is right. The premise of the Dalish is to recover their lost lore so they can teach all elves what they've forgotten over the centuries of slavery. She's doing precisely what she's supposed to do as a member of the Dalish.

heman14 wrote...

It'd be a better comparison if Tali was recklessly conducting her own research and experiments on live geth while everyone was telling her to stop...or if Merill was acting under the advice of the Keeper, who herself would have been a blood mage and working with a demon unbeknownst to Merill. 

Merrill knows Audacity is dangerous, and she never pretends otherwise. She knows the risk of dealing with it will likely mean her death, she's not ignorant of this.

[The Angry One]

Good point.  Still doesn't change the fact that she didn't know what her father was doing with the parts.

Tali was acting on the wishes of her father...whom she trusted blindly.  It' was foolish sure, but it wasn't a self motivated reckless act.  She was more of a pawn in the situation. 

Merill was working on all on her own.  Recklessly defying everyone at every turn.

Different reasons for different actions, but neither is less valid.
The point is "oblivious to the obvious" can apply in both cases, Tali because she trusted her father and Merril because she was single-minded about restoring the elves who have been reduced to rag tag nomads and servants to glory.

[GreyLord]

In relation to the original topic...with why Merrill

I think it's not so much that I like her, as much as the only other option is the same one that everyone and their brother has had...multiple times.

At least as far as any relationship goes, Merrill probably has a better chance of sticking to one person and not giving you the rot...than the other option which is probably guaranteed to eventually cheat on you, give you the rot, and then brag about it.

Modifié par GreyLord, 22 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Invalidcode]

Merrill isn't stupid, she's just naive and too absorbed by the mirror/dalish thing.
If you played DA:O dalish origin and met the corrupted Talem it should bring a little more to Merrill's character.

If you listen to her banter to others, and played both friendly and rivalry Merrill, it cleared shows that she knows the risk of dealing with a demon, she just against the idea to call the demon a demon, she calls it a spirit. She even 'schooled' Anders that 'All spirits carry risk, even I knew that!'. (And look at what mess Vengeance caused lol)

She knows the risk of dealing with her demon and willing to carry all the risk alone and it shows. She asked Hawke to just kill her if she got possessed, only the Keeper loved her too much to let it happen and took the death from her.

And if you use DnD good/evil system Merrill is closer to the good side than evil one for sure.
Learned BM doesn't automatically makes a person evil anyways.

[Ruben Thomas]

"Ah! Merill's been jumping on the bed again." - Male Hawke.

That's why I like her

[Lianaar]

Merril was young, sweet and innocent. She was educated, knowledgeable, she saw the pain and suffering of her people and wished to aid them. She wished to do it the only way she knew how. She took great personal sacrifices in order to help them and never once did she do it for herself. She respected others and she was dedicated to her goals, though she was willing to listen to reason. From the banters we know that she didn't think of the task as harmless, she knew the risks and would the Keeper not have intervened, the risk would have been limited mostly to Merril. She is one of the most open-minded. She is a true friend, attentive, caring, kind-hearted, never being dispicable to anyone.

Merril is however an unexperienced pup thinking she knows better then others and she is not really good in taking critics. She is arrogant in her abilities to handle anything comming her way, be it blood magic, demons or templtations. She doesn't consider motivation and reaction of other people at times and is constantly surprised by the world. She is prideful, that is why she gave in a pride demon. She went into a who is right sort of battle with the clan and the keeper and everyone lost in the end.