422 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Invalidcode wrote...

Learned BM doesn't automatically makes a person evil anyways.

It seems to in every other case.
The player doesn't count. You never get any acknowledgement for using blood magic in DA:O or DA2... well okay, one vague line from Uldred.

[th3warr1or]

Curlain wrote...

Yeah I will say anyone taking advice from Vengeance-Anders alone in this game needs their heads examined, so Merrill was doing the right thing there

Exactly. Anders kills more people than Merrill as a bloodmage ever would.

[Invalidcode]

The Angry One wrote...

Invalidcode wrote...

Learned BM doesn't automatically makes a person evil anyways.

It seems to in every other case.
The player doesn't count. You never get any acknowledgement for using blood magic in DA:O or DA2... well okay, one vague line from Uldred.

Most Bloodmage are batsheet insane in DA, at least the ones Warden and Hawke encountered. We can agree on that.

Warden is a good example though, shows that you can learn BM and still in control of who you are. Heck you can even bully the demon iirc.
Merrill isn't evil.
Jowan is like a textbook example a 'normal' people would go after one used Blood magic as last resort and standing at that crossroad after you became a blood mage. He could accpect his punishment willingly or go the typical BM path and run from the templars etc.

[cglasgow]

th3warr1or wrote...

Exactly. Anders kills more people than Merrill as a bloodmage ever would.

Hell, Merrill's blood magic never kills a single person in the game.

People freaking out about the idea of Merrill being a blood mage manage to kill themselves a lot, yes... but that's not her fault.

Or: If I'm a researcher working with hazardous materials, then yeah, I'm... working with something hazardous.   So if it blows up in anybody's face, I obviously screwed up one of my safety precautions somewhere.

But if a bunch of anti-hazmat protesters are so angry/scared at what I'm doing that they all run at an electric fence surrounding my research lab and fry themselves, while my experiment actually isn't blowing up anywhere... then isn't that their mistake, not mine?

[Noatz]

Haha, Merrill gets her very own alignment: Chaotic Stupid.

Overall though shes just too proud for her own good. Which is why she falls prey to pride demons (both in the Fade and at Sundermount). She's not actually hugely stupid, I believe she would laugh away the advances of a desire demon for instance, but she can't see how she actually has fallen prey to a demonic plot.

Modifié par Noatz, 22 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[Wulfram]

cglasgow wrote...

Hell, Merrill's blood magic never kills a single person in the game.

It kills rather a lot of bad guys for me

(Sorry, I know what you really meant)

[The Angry One]

See I don't see Merril's ideas and actions as stupid.
There's risk, certainly. She may even be wrong. But she's not wrong to try.
The stupidity comes from those around her. The Keeper, Pol, etc. who panic and jump to conclusions.

Merril is no more at fault for their stupidity than, say, some idiot killing themselves because they think the Large Hadron Collider will create a black hole and destroy the planet.
Now I'm not saying the Eluvian is as innocuous as the LHC but my point is that Merril is not responsible for what fear drives other people to.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Lianaar]

I faulted Pol less, since the Keeper has been doomsaying about Merril for a while (feeling it to be her obligation as Keeper). Were the Keeper not badmouthing Merril (validly or otherwise), Pol would not have feared her as much.

[Zan Mura]

Vicious wrote...

So someone explain to me what the appeal of this retarded character is? 

EDIT: This turned out to be rather long, tl;dr; in the end. A lot of presumptuous interpretation of Merrill's personality before it.

She is odd. It's that simple.

Firstly you have to remember that she took the demon's deal out of necessity, with no other way to survive. Her base nature also seems the kind that she's always been a bit out of touch from other people and reality. Innocent in her own way, yet strong willed and determined in another. Simply put, she doesn't easily accept people's word for anything. This combined with her becoming shunned by her own people forced her to find even more strength in her own beliefs, regardless of whether they were right or wrong.

Obviously to others she seemed to be too lighthearted about the demon in her. But I don't believe that was the case, I believe she was very careful about it, but also determined to push on to get what she wanted. But to a somewhat young and socially inept personality that already feels it's difficult to get along with other people as it is, being then labeled a monster, stupid and whatever else only serves to push her further away into the only thing she can rely on: the path she's already chosen. What choice does she have, after all. To trust in random people outside her village who patronize and insult her at every turn?

Personally I see that most of the situations where you can get negative reputation for her anyway are as a result of treating others the same way she herself feels treated. Condemning a blood mage just for meddling with blood magic to her is the same as she has been judged by people who just don't understand and instead like to cry "blasphemy!" and point fingers. Condemning a blood mage for having done evil deeds, hurting people when it could NOT be counted as self defense, earns no disrespect from Merrill either.

As for withholding the part to fix the mirror, it's not -175 rep, based on how for one of my runs it was only -20, I think it's simply set to a fixed 75 rivalry or something. Thus, if you were friends with her before, the impact is the greatest. As it should be. Imagine your life as you know it was almost destroyed by an event that lead to you suffering from a fatal curse, then being bound to a demon as your only means of survival, followed by your own people basically throwing you out (make no mistake, they DID throw her out, the Keeper wants her back in but there's not a single elf around aside from the keeper who wants anything to do with her... the Dalish are prone to be all zealous and overreact about any and every thing that way). And the ONLY thing you have left for all that, is to fix that piece that cursed you in the first place to achieve something monumental for your culture. Even if the others continue to despise you, at least you would have done something great for your people. It would be the only thing left that could make it all worthwhile, if there was anything left to salvage of the situation. And then, when your best friend gets you SO close to it, they just up and refuse you, keep the part from you like some last insult to a child who in reality has much more understanding of it all than any of you. Basically, they take the only thing left for you, your dream and purpose you've worked for for years, and step on it in front of your face... claiming it's a good thing.

Few betrayals would feel as crushing and devastating as something like that. But partially that's also a fault in writing in my opinion. You should have been able to do that with a more compromising attitude, telling her it's ok for her to finish her job BUT that she needs to take a time out, distance herself from that obsession. That you'd give her the part back after a time. So at least you wouldn't completely crush her hopes. Instead the options we have are basically "Oh ok *cheers!*" and "No!", took the liberty to slightly exaggarate there, but the point got accross I'm sure.

tl;dr;
I like Merrill because she is who she is. She's weird, cute in that almost awkward kind of way, yet also strong and set to finish the task she has chosen. No offense to the OP but you seem to be condemning her based on what others say and believe in Thedas. It's precisely because of that that I like her. Never been much for the masses, people who go with what everyone else believes in, and quickly scream wolf on anyone who doesn't. Maybe that's because I've never really belonged myself either.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 22 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[Lianaar]

I might have misunderstood, but I don't think she was an abomination. She made a deal with a demon, but the demon was not in her body, or else the Keeper could not have locked the Demon into her own self. The demon was further imprisoned in that statue and wanted to use Merril's mirror to get himself freed.

[Furball34]

rma2110 wrote...

I don't know why but little Merrill is growing on me. She's not stupid or insane just very sheltered and naive. She just can not believe that there is evil in the world. She also knows that consorting with demons is VERY dangerous. She even asks Hawke to kill her if she becomes an abomination.

In short Merrill was willing to risk her own life for a chance at knowledge that would benefit her clan. If she became an abomination and Hawke killed her than so be it. Merril never expected the keeper to take in the risk instead. Only the keeper died in my playthough, not the whole clan.

Right, wrong, dangerous, safe, irrelevant.
As is her willingness to sacrifice her own life to gain lost knowledge for her clan.
The Keeper and the Clan rejected her offer to get this knowledge, she knew full well there would be consequences for continuing down that path.
She may have had good intentions for her actions, but you know what they say:
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

At any rate, I do not see any appeal with Merrill, just like with Anders and Fenris.

[cglasgow]

Furball34 wrote...

As is her willingness to sacrifice her own life to gain lost knowledge for her clan.

You know, normally when someone is willing to risk their own life to try and bring a precious strategic resource to their nation, we call them a hero.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[Dussan2]

Merrill is about the cutest character Bioware ever came up with. She is up there with Minsk, and Mordin Solus.

She is adorable.

She wasn't so cute when me, her, Isabella and Aveline murdered her clan. But she was really cute! in the previous acts.

Wow, I still did not see any of that coming.

[Lianaar]

cglasgow wrote...
You know, normally when someone is willing to risk their own life to try and bring a precious strategic resource to their nation, we call them a hero.

I would call them either a martyr or a 'Who was that? Never heard.' :innocent:

[Furball34]

cglasgow wrote...

Furball34 wrote...

As is her willingness to sacrifice her own life to gain lost knowledge for her clan.

You know, normally when someone is willing to risk their own life to try and bring a precious strategic resource to their nation, we call them a hero.

Not when the nation dosn't want/appriciate what they have done, then they are simply fools.
I do not see anything heroic in Merrill, not even remotely close.
I see a naive, young girl who thinks she knows better than anyone else.
As a result of her pride, her keeper is dead, and her clan's corpses litter the Sundermounts now.

[Lianaar]

I would not blame Merril for the Keeper's death. None forced the Keeper, she did it on her own. It was her sole decision and while her goals were noble she didn't care enough for her duty as a Keeper to tell someone in the clan: hey, I am doing this, get the hell out of here, before I get you all killed....

[Maria Caliban]

Vicious wrote...

Can someone explain the appeal of the partially insane/chaotic stupid Merrill?

Seriously what's so great about this character?

I am ambivalent about her.

I think she is sweet, kind, funny, and has a charming freshness to her. She is also passionate and devoted to her cause while wanting to feel as though she belongs.

Her perspective on matters is also very different from that of the other characters.

[fluorine7]

Everyone has their own opinion about NPCs based on their own experience with people and their own personality. So you like Anders but hate Merrill or you like Aveline but hate Fenris, that's normal. A good character is a flawed character.

I don't see the point why you need people to explain to you why they like Merrill.

You don't want other people to explain to you about anything, you just want to vent and have people agree with you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Furball34 wrote...


Right, wrong, dangerous, safe, irrelevant.
As is her willingness to sacrifice her own life to gain lost knowledge for her clan.
The Keeper and the Clan rejected her offer to get this knowledge, she knew full well there would be consequences for continuing down that path.
She may have had good intentions for her actions, but you know what they say:
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

At any rate, I do not see any appeal with Merrill, just like with Anders and Fenris.

Merrill did know there were consequences. The consequences she foresaw and prepared for, however, fell entirely on herself. No one else. All other consequences were the consequences of other people's initiative, not the direct response to her actions.

Merrill has always been the antithesis of what blood magic is feared for, and symbolic of what it, in any other form, is respected for: self-sacrifice, as opposed to the domination of others. Independence, as opposed to suppression. Separation in lieu of disagreement, not enforced conformity. A willingness to put others above one's self, even if others do not agree or appreciate.

The consequences of Merrill's path fall far more on the shoulders of those who intervened on their own initiative, not the direct result of careless or unthinking actions. The Keeper's death can be blaimed on no one but the Keeper: it was her decision to sacrifice herself on Merrill's behalf, not only without but actually against Merrill's wishes. The Clan's willingness to attack is, again, of their own initiative.

Inadverdant disaster only befalls those around Merrill because they involve themselves. Had they not interfered, the only person who would have born the consequences would have been Merrill. Instead, others bore the consequences of their own initiative, without Merrill ever asking or forcing them to do so.

[Furball34]

Lianaar wrote...

I would not blame Merril for the Keeper's death. None forced the Keeper, she did it on her own. It was her sole decision and while her goals were noble she didn't care enough for her duty as a Keeper to tell someone in the clan: hey, I am doing this, get the hell out of here, before I get you all killed....

The keeper's death was a consequence of Merrill's persistance in fixing the Eluvian.
The Keeper chose to take the blow for Merrill so to speak.
I doubt the keeper knew that the clan would attack afterwards tho, and get them selves massacred in the process.
Even if she had succeded I suspect the clan would still have rejected the knowledge and her.

[Maria Caliban]

Furball34 wrote...

The keeper's death was a consequence of Merrill's persistance in fixing the Eluvian.
The Keeper chose to take the blow for Merrill so to speak.
I doubt the keeper knew that the clan would attack afterwards tho, and get them selves massacred in the process.
Even if she had succeded I suspect the clan would still have rejected the knowledge and her.

No, the Keepers death was a consequence of the Keeper letting a demon possess her. She might have done it for Merrill, and that's very heroic of her, but Merrill can't be blamed for others becoming abominations.

The Keeper ought to know after the death of Pol. Telling the clan that Merrill was corrupted and should be feared, and then letting Merrill kill her could only end poorly.

We'll never know what would happen if she succeeded. We actually have no idea how dangerous the mirror is. Or what is does. It might have been of great benefit or harm.

[cglasgow]

Furball34 wrote...

The keeper's death was a consequence of Merrill's persistance in fixing the Eluvian.

In exactly the same way that Meredith's insanity and the whole civil war was a result of Hawke's persistence in funding Bartrand's expedition.

IOW, not really your fault at all. 

We are discussing here the difference between proximate cause and ultimate cause.   Ultimate cause is the first step in a chain of events that led to disaster.   Proximate cause is the final decision step, the last chance that any one of the actors involved in the event had to turn away and yet still didn't.

Sometimes, the liability for the accident lies on the ultimate cause... but a lot of the time, the actual liability lies on the proximate cause.

Example: I yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater just for a prank.
Result: During the stampede out, someone else trips and falls, gets trampled by the rest of the crowd, and dies.
Proximate Cause of death: Dude was clumsy and got stepped on.
Ultimate Cause of death: I was a jackass who yelled 'Fire!' in a crowded theater when everybody knows you're not supposed to do that ****.
Liability: Me.

But then we have...

Example: I build a tall fence around my property.
Result: Someone trying to sneak onto my property climbs my tall fence, falls off the top, and breaks their neck and dies.
Proximate Cause of death: Dude fell off my fence.
Ultimate Cause of death: I built a fence.
Liability: Not me; I wasn't hurting anybody by building a fence, it was his decision to both try and screw with my ****, and then do so incompetently.

The Keeper chose to take the blow for Merrill so to speak.

Key word being "The Keeper chose".   She didn't have to do it, and nobody was expecting her to do it.  So, it lies on her -- not Merrill.   She was exactly where she wanted to be... how can somebody else be blamed for that?

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 08:10 .

[Furball34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Furball34 wrote...


Right, wrong, dangerous, safe, irrelevant.
As is her willingness to sacrifice her own life to gain lost knowledge for her clan.
The Keeper and the Clan rejected her offer to get this knowledge, she knew full well there would be consequences for continuing down that path.
She may have had good intentions for her actions, but you know what they say:
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

At any rate, I do not see any appeal with Merrill, just like with Anders and Fenris.

Merrill did know there were consequences. The consequences she foresaw and prepared for, however, fell entirely on herself. No one else. All other consequences were the consequences of other people's initiative, not the direct response to her actions.

Merrill has always been the antithesis of what blood magic is feared for, and symbolic of what it, in any other form, is respected for: self-sacrifice, as opposed to the domination of others. Independence, as opposed to suppression. Separation in lieu of disagreement, not enforced conformity. A willingness to put others above one's self, even if others do not agree or appreciate.

The consequences of Merrill's path fall far more on the shoulders of those who intervened on their own initiative, not the direct result of careless or unthinking actions. The Keeper's death can be blaimed on no one but the Keeper: it was her decision to sacrifice herself on Merrill's behalf, not only without but actually against Merrill's wishes. The Clan's willingness to attack is, again, of their own initiative.

Inadverdant disaster only befalls those around Merrill because they involve themselves. Had they not interfered, the only person who would have born the consequences would have been Merrill. Instead, others bore the consequences of their own initiative, without Merrill ever asking or forcing them to do so.

Merrill forced their hand, that much is plain enough for anyone to see.
I suspect there is more to it than just her dabbling in Blood Magic and the mirror than whats been said tho.
Also, she was trying to force this lost knowledge on them when they clearly didn't want it, no wonder they resisted.
One could say they are the ignorant fools, be that as it may, they are dead now, and I bet she wishes she'd left well enough alone.

[Lianaar]

The Keeper had many many choices.
Like.. simply crush the Eluvian? Not giving the tool? She didn't have to give it. Not give the Eluvian to Merril in the first place? How about making magical defenses before the cave with the demon? To make it less accessible for Merril? The keeper knew more magic.
The thing is, the Keeper was just as prideful as Merril was. The Keeper raised Merril to her own image.
Merril/Keeper was obsessed with the Eluvian/Merril. She couldn't let go of it. She did actions with good intent, out of love of her people/First. She miscalculated the people's reaction severly. She was convinced she knows all the consequences and can cope with it. In the process many others were harmed.

[The Angry One]

Furball34 wrote...

Merrill forced their hand, that much is plain enough for anyone to see.
I suspect there is more to it than just her dabbling in Blood Magic and the mirror than whats been said tho.
Also, she was trying to force this lost knowledge on them when they clearly didn't want it, no wonder they resisted.
One could say they are the ignorant fools, be that as it may, they are dead now, and I bet she wishes she'd left well enough alone.

Merril did no such thing. She ultimately kept the Keeper and the clan out of it, and Merril expected that the clan would have moved on at the time she approached the demon again - she may even have been waiting until she was reasonably sure the clan would've moved.
Instead, the Keeper kept them there and chose to mess around with the demon.
And you can't assume there was more than what was said, since nothing implies otherwise. Merril was not wrong to try, and thanks to the Keeper's inability to leave well enough alone we don't know how it would've ultimately turned out.