422 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

I will point out that even if you refuse to give Merrill the arulin'holm in act 2, and then never speak to the Keeper again, she still binds the demon into herself; she isn't doing it just because you've warned her that Merrill is heading into trouble. She still does it even if you just sneak through camp and head up Sundermount, not having spoken to her in years.

Which means she had to have already bound that demon into herself before we even got to the camp in act 3, because I damn sure didn't notice Keeper Merethari running past us while we were halfway up the mountain.

Add: For that matter, given how full of monsters the trail was, nobody had been up that mountain for a while.  Just how long was Merethari an abomination, anyway?

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 08:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Furball34 wrote...

Merrill forced their hand, that much is plain enough for anyone to see.

In what sense were they ever forced?

If the Keeper had not intervened, the Merrill would have become an abomination and been killed instead. The Clan intervened on the basis of the Keeper's voluntary sacrifice, and Hawke intervened by, well, just being there.

The curse of the mirror was entirely a self-fulfilling prophesy without necessity.

I suspect there is more to it than just her dabbling in Blood Magic and the mirror than whats been said tho.

If there is, it really hasn't been implicated yet.

Also, she was trying to force this lost knowledge on them when they clearly didn't want it, no wonder they resisted.

They didn't resist because they didn't want the knowledge. The Keeper intervened because she loved Merrill and didn't want to see Merrill die, and the Clan intervened because they blamed Merrill for the Keeper's own voluntary decision. And Hawke just chose whatever based on character.

One could say they are the ignorant fools, be that as it may, they are dead now, and I bet she wishes she'd left well enough alone.

Certainly, but that doesn't make their deaths her fault. People can be held responsible for their own actions.

Far more your fault, actually, since it's Hawke's decision that decides their final fate. Certainly the Clan didn't die in my playthrough.

[Malanek]

She reminds me of Nimue in the Arthurian legends, who was hellbent on restoring the old gods to britain who would then drive christianity and the sais from the land.

The appeal with Merril is that she is a very interesting and tragic character. She was willing to sacrifice herself to help her people and ended up destroying them.

[Invalidcode]

Actually during the show down the clan force you to fight and kill them if Hawke doesn't take the blame. Otherwise they will leave.

The Clan fear BM and the mirror so much to the point to almost unreasonable, part of the reason being of what happened in Dalish Origin.
Even the Dalish Origin is kind of dull but if you haven't played it you should, takes 1/2-1 hour only.

[Maria Caliban]

Malanek999 wrote...

She was willing to sacrifice herself to help her people and ended up destroying them.

No, she was willing to sacrifice herself to help her people but her people ended up destroying themselves.

[Furball34]

Invalidcode wrote...

Actually during the show down the clan force you to fight and kill them if Hawke doesn't take the blame. Otherwise they will leave.

The Clan fear BM and the mirror so much to the point to almost unreasonable, part of the reason being of what happened in Dalish Origin.
Even the Dalish Origin is kind of dull but if you haven't played it you should, takes 1/2-1 hour only.

2 out of 3 ends in a bloodbath.
Reloaded one save to take the blame once to see what happened.
Needless to say, I didnt want to take the blame for Merrill's actions.
Would have done it for Aveline, Varric Isabela and Bethany/carver (yes even Carver).

My Warden from DA:O is a Dalish rogue, so I knew what the Eluvian was, and I knew it was bad ju ju.
Whom ever said that Merrill is a tragic character is right, how ever since she was present during the events in Dalish Origins, Merrill knew full well what the mirror was also, which makes it hard to feel any sympathy for her.
Think most people figured out that her quest would end badly the first time she mentioned the Eluvian.

[Malanek]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

She was willing to sacrifice herself to help her people and ended up destroying them.

No, she was willing to sacrifice herself to help her people but her people ended up destroying themselves.

You could get into a large circular argument over where cause starts and where it finishes. Yes they attack you but they didn't kill themselves. In my game Merill killed plenty of them. If they hadn't attacked they wouldn't be dead but if Merill hadn't taken the actions she took none of that would have happened. Yes there were other factors, but Merills actions, however inadvertant, led to her clans destruction.

[The Angry One]

2 out of 3 options end in a bloodbath due to Dalish aggression. Not one of them is Merril's fault.

As for the Eluvian. The Eluvian is a tool, it's not inherently evil. Again, it's original function was a communication device. It's restoration could mean something to Merril's people as a symbol of what the elves could once produce.

[Malanek]

The Angry One wrote...

2 out of 3 options end in a bloodbath due to Dalish aggression. Not one of them is Merril's fault.

As for the Eluvian. The Eluvian is a tool, it's not inherently evil. Again, it's original function was a communication device. It's restoration could mean something to Merril's people as a symbol of what the elves could once produce.

We don't know exactly what it is. Duncan was convinced that it was corrupted by the darkspawn taint and needed to be destroyed. Merill thinks otherwise.

[The Angry One]

Malanek999 wrote...

You could get into a large circular argument over where cause starts and where it finishes. Yes they attack you but they didn't kill themselves. In my game Merill killed plenty of them. If they hadn't attacked they wouldn't be dead but if Merill hadn't taken the actions she took none of that would have happened. Yes there were other factors, but Merills actions, however inadvertant, led to her clans destruction.

Her clan wasn't even supposed to be there at the time Merril decided to contact the demon again. This was entirely down to Marethari. If she had left the clan would've been in no danger at all.
You can get into a huge chain and ultimately point the blame to Merril. You could also do the same with Hawke. Hell why not blame Tamlen and/or the Dalish Warden for finding the mirror in the first place? 
That's the problem with the blame game, it can just keep going.

We don't know exactly what it is. Duncan was convinced that it was
corrupted by the darkspawn taint and needed to be destroyed. Merill
thinks otherwise.

No. Merril knows full well it was corrupted, that's what she was doing all these years - uncorrupting it.
This is also why she sought the help of a demon and used blood magic, because her clan refused to help her.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[Foolsfolly]

I'm on my third playthrough and I've romanced Merrill twice (this time it's Isabella).

Merrill....is cute, compassionate, and really wants to help her people.

....she's an idiot. Have Anders in your team when she talks about cleaning the mirror with Blood Mage, she damn near covers her ears to avoid the fact that Blood Magic is a corruption in the first place, you cannot cleanse something with it.

She just spouts out that Blood Magic is no evil, and she's seemingly the only character in the whole series who thinks so.

I dislike her obsession and how naive she thinks. But that's her character flaw, every single companion in the game has a pretty glaring character flaw. It makes them all more human and yet also a bit unlikable.

Except for Varric and Aveline. They're just generally good friends.

[Dean_the_Young]

There are different layers and types of responsibility, however. The free will people have, and the nature of any impetus to act, can be weighed against each other.

Let's start with one act: why would the actions of the Keeper be Merrill's responsibility, as opposed to the Keeper's? Did Merrill encourage, obligate, enforce, or necessitate, or even suggest such a path of action?

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

....she's an idiot. Have Anders in your team when she talks about cleaning the mirror with Blood Mage, she damn near covers her ears to avoid the fact that Blood Magic is a corruption in the first place, you cannot cleanse something with it.

Blood magic is using blood to power spells. It can be used for great evil but I don't see how that's corrupt in and of itself - Merril used it as a power source. She states that if she had access to tons of Lyrium she would've used that instead.
And again, Anders is no one to talk about corruption of any sort.

[cglasgow]

Blood magic is evil when you use it to mind control others, or sacrifice other peoples' blood for power, or... all the stuff that Merrill doesn't do.

And the crazy abomination who tries to murder the hostage you came there to rescue has no room to talk smack to anybody else about anything.

Especially when Merrill can point out to Anders that when it comes to the topic of forbidden magic, she knew her stuff better than he ever did.

Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 08:58 .

[DirewolfX]

The Angry One wrote...

See I don't see Merril's ideas and actions as stupid.
There's risk, certainly. She may even be wrong. But she's not wrong to try.
The stupidity comes from those around her. The Keeper, Pol, etc. who panic and jump to conclusions.

Merril is no more at fault for their stupidity than, say, some idiot killing themselves because they think the Large Hadron Collider will create a black hole and destroy the planet.
Now I'm not saying the Eluvian is as innocuous as the LHC but my point is that Merril is not responsible for what fear drives other people to.

http://hasthelargeha...heworldyet.com/

[Malanek]

The Angry One wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

You could get into a large circular argument over where cause starts and where it finishes. Yes they attack you but they didn't kill themselves. In my game Merill killed plenty of them. If they hadn't attacked they wouldn't be dead but if Merill hadn't taken the actions she took none of that would have happened. Yes there were other factors, but Merills actions, however inadvertant, led to her clans destruction.

Her clan wasn't even supposed to be there at the time Merril decided to contact the demon again. This was entirely down to Marethari. If she had left the clan would've been in no danger at all.
You can get into a huge chain and ultimately point the blame to Merril. You could also do the same with Hawke. Hell why not blame Tamlen and/or the Dalish Warden for finding the mirror in the first place? 
That's the problem with the blame game, it can just keep going.

Who knows, if the keeper hadn't trapped the demon inside herself waiting for Merill to destroy it, it might have gone on a rampage doing infinitely more damage. The keeper ultimately did what she did out of love, I considered that pretty noble. Tamlen and the potential Warden didn't know what they were doing. Merill didn't forsee the consequences, but she did knowingly undertake a peril filled path.

The Angry One wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
We don't know exactly what it is. Duncan was convinced that it was
corrupted by the darkspawn taint and needed to be destroyed. Merill
thinks otherwise.

No. Merril knows full well it was corrupted, that's what she was doing all these years - uncorrupting it.
This is also why she sought the help of a demon and used blood magic, because her clan refused to help her.

The otherwise was in regards to it needing to be destroyed. She wants to restore it.

Modifié par Malanek999, 22 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[cglasgow]

Malanek999 wrote...

Who knows, if the keeper hadn't trapped the demon inside herself waiting for Merill to destroy it, it might have gone on a rampage doing infitely more damage.

With Hawke standing between it and the cave exit?   Not happening.  

Merrill knows damn well you can beat down any abomination that thing can throw; by that point in the game, she's watched you kill more abominations than most people have eaten hot dinners.  Short of also inviting along the Warden-Commander and Flemeth, she had that demon about as boxed in as any mortal beings could ever hope to box one in.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 09:01 .

[Kartikeya]

Merrill's two major flaws are that she refuses to listen to anyone or believe that she might be wrong (and this starts with Duncan and continues on to absolutely anyone and everyone who suggest she might be wrong. I doubt she would give up the mirror if the Dalish Warden herself and Tamlen's ghost showed up to warn her about it), and that she is blind to the idea that, despite what she wants, she can't control other people's responses to her actions and she can't limit the consequences solely to herself.

That last one is a kicker. Have Hawke ask her what will happen if she becomes an abomination too powerful for Hawke to stop. Sure, Hawke has plot armor, and Hawke has done awesome things by that point, but there is no way for Merrill to absolutely know for sure that Hawke will totally be able to kill her if she's become an abomination. But Merrill is convinced, utterly, that the danger will fall entirely on her shoulders and that if anyone is going to get hurt in this venture, it will be her and her alone. This is wrong. You can argue until you're blue in the face as to whether she's ultimately responsible for what happens to the Keeper and her clan, but there's no real arguing that insisting that the risk can only be to herself is naive. What would have happened if the Keeper never intervened and abomination!Merrill managed to kill Hawke and her companions on the mountain? Pretty sure the Dalish wouldn't have been safe. Wasn't the original intention of the demon to come through the mirror into the mortal realm anyway? Pretty sure the danger to anyone in the vicinity of Kirkwall in general wouldn't have been limited only to Merrill. Keeper Marethari says that Merrill would have been the demon's first victim--not its last.

[lazuli]

It's the accent. She could be kicking orphans and I wouldn't care so long as she narrated her deeds in that accent.

[cglasgow]

Kartikeya wrote...

That last one is a kicker. Have Hawke ask her what will happen if she becomes an abomination too powerful for Hawke to stop. Sure, Hawke has plot armor, and Hawke has done awesome things by that point, but there is no way for Merrill to absolutely know for sure that Hawke will totally be able to kill her if she's become an abomination.

By this point in the game she's watched you beat the living **** out of a pride demon that beat her.  While in the Fade.    Not to mention killing your way through enough blood mages, abominations, giant monsters, and maybe a High Dragon...

Really, its not like the girl is making a sucker bet or anything.

But Merrill is convinced, utterly, that the danger will fall entirely on her shoulders and that if anyone is going to get hurt in this venture, it will be her and her alone. This is wrong. You can argue until you're blue in the face as to whether she's ultimately responsible for what happens to the Keeper and her clan, but there's no real arguing that insisting that the risk can only be to herself is naive. What would have happened if the Keeper never intervened and abomination!Merrill managed to kill Hawke and her companions on the mountain?

Ever heard of something called the Harrowing?  

If you're already standing there over the mage's unconscious body with a sword at their neck, you can generally kill any abomination before it's able to move.  The change is swift, but not lightspeed.

That's what Merrill is effectively inviting you to, remember.   Her own Harrowing.   You're filling in for the templars.   'I'm going to go confront a demon in the Fade.  If I lose, kill me before I can hurt anyone.'   Its done every damn week in Thedas, inside the Circles.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 09:05 .

[The Angry One]

Malanek999 wrote...

Who knows, if the keeper hadn't trapped the demon inside herself waiting for Merill to destroy it, it might have gone on a rampage doing infinitely more damage. The keeper ultimately did what she did out of love, I considered that pretty noble. Tamlen and the potential Warden didn't know what they were doing. Merill didn't forsee the consequences, but she did knowingly undertake a peril filled path.

It may have been noble, but it was also presumptive and misguided. She could have chosen to help Merril, or help Hawke ensure that if Merril became an abomination that she would be defeated.

The otherwise was in regards to it needing to be destroyed. She wants to restore it.

It depends on your point of view. I've always held that you can't simply destroy a tool for what a tool may do.
This is the same reason I think the whole anvil thing in DA:O was contrived and stupid (a forced choice between the idiot who wants to destroy it and the idiot who wants to abuse it).

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

She's just awesome and she has a great accent, that is all.
But seriously the whole naievete thing and her observations remind me of Tali:wub: and she's an elf which is a bonus.
I'm trying to go with her as my LI in this run, hopefully she is open minded since my Hawke is female.
The most annoying character is probably Fenris for me, I tried to be nice to him but he just keeps getting angry at me, second to that is Sebastian. He's useful in a fight but man how I hate fanatics.

[Lianaar]

The Angry One wrote...
It may have been noble, but it was also presumptive and misguided. She could have chosen to help Merril, or help Hawke ensure that if Merril became an abomination that she would be defeated.

She did it for Fenryel, but for her own First, she didn't. It is somewhat sad.

[Foolsfolly]

The Angry One wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

....she's an idiot. Have Anders in your team when she talks about cleaning the mirror with Blood Mage, she damn near covers her ears to avoid the fact that Blood Magic is a corruption in the first place, you cannot cleanse something with it.

Blood magic is using blood to power spells. It can be used for great evil but I don't see how that's corrupt in and of itself - Merril used it as a power source. She states that if she had access to tons of Lyrium she would've used that instead.
And again, Anders is no one to talk about corruption of any sort.

Yeah, but I heard Merrill say that and she's not exactly the best source of information on the subject. She's biased. She doesn't want to admit it was a mistake and that she's a danger to herself and everyone around her. However, in DA:O you had Wynne who frowned on Blood Magic and considered it base, evil, and wrong.

Merrill's....unreliable on this subject. I'd take Anders side on this subject.

I like the character, but this is like Anakin going Dark Side to save Padme. The Dark Side isn't a tool you can use it's a corruption that destroys you. Since Merrill's the only Blood Mage I've met that isn't completely crazy I believe Blood Magic is similar to the Dark Side. (Although, she will betray you in Fade for more power and will damn even her own clan out of her curiosity) .

[cglasgow]

The Angry One wrote...

This is the same reason I think the whole anvil thing in DA:O was contrived and stupid (a forced choice between the idiot who wants to destroy it and the idiot who wants to abuse it).

It worked for me because one, the thing was powered by the souls of the damned, which generally creeps me the hell out.   Even blood magic has the option of 'I'm only hurting me'... the Anvil is explicitly 'Blood and souls for Arioch!' territory.

And two, the situation fails because you're caught between two obsessed lunatics; remember, Caridin isn't that much more sane than Branka.   When two heavily-armed fanatics of diametrically opposed beliefs are going head-to-head, how can it possibly end in anything but blood?