422 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Vicious wrote...

Seriously what's so great about this character? I really hate her [and I thought I would like her because I liked Tali. Turns out they are not even remotely similar]

Merrill must be partially insane or downright chaotic stupid. She repeats herself about Demons and how they aren't evil so often you'd think she was trying to assure herself. Meanwhile pretty much the entire party thinks she is an idiot. Anders says she has no idea what she's messing with, Aveline downright calls her stupid, Fenris calls her a monster.

She also gets mad at being questioned or having to explain herself. You know, kind of like how children act. She refuses to learn from her mistakes and thinks she always knows better than everyone else. Seriously, there's NO excuse. The warnings, danger, and risks with blood magic are COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Every Mage in Thedas knows they are bad news. 

But nope,  it's not an issue with Merrill. she thinks calling demons to help her is harmless, in fact downright insists on it. Repeatedly. Hell, there is one banter with Anders where Anders says, 'Look, you have to admit that some spirits CLEARLY are bent towards certain evil aspects. And Merrill's reply is basically 'no wai!'

And that is what beings me to insanity.

The definition of insanity is repeating an action and expecting a different outcome.
Merrll keeps practicing blood magic and consorting with demons and expects everything to work out fine.



So someone explain to me what the appeal of this retarded character is? 


And lastly even when I refuse to give her the tool to repair the Eluvian and get a whopping 175 rivalry points for it, her dialogue indicates I gave it her anyway. wtf.

Because you have no faith in her and you take the wrong party members. Take Varric and Isabella instead of Fenris and Aveline. Merrill is neither stupid nor as naive as she appears. Anders is much worse. And she never says that demons are not evil.

[Nathan Redgrave]

I hate it when people take reasons a character would be dislikable as a person and transpose them onto their list of why they're not a good *character.*

[Mahtisonni]

Well the only other female love interest is incredibly selfish **** that does not hesitate to doom countless innocents to death only to save her own ass or for some pocket money.

[Foolsfolly]

Lianaar wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
It may have been noble, but it was also presumptive and misguided. She could have chosen to help Merril, or help Hawke ensure that if Merril became an abomination that she would be defeated.

She did it for Fenryel, but for her own First, she didn't. It is somewhat sad.

She didn't do it for Merrill because she knew Merrill.

Fenryel was taking a chance, with Merrill it was a garentee she would go Abomination. There's no way Merrill stood a chance against that Pride Demon. All the demon would have to say is, "Together we can rise Arthalan and return the elves to their proper place."

And Merrill would smile and say, "Oh, that's what an abomination means? I thought it was something icky and messy. It can't be evil if it's what I want."

And BAM now there's a Merrill Abomination running around killing and generally doing evil deeds. The Keeper loves Merrill and knows Meriill too well to assume Merrill could resist this. Merrill is so damned that she's spent 7 years away from her clan and family, living in destution and only returning to continue to work on a foul evil artifact that's become her whole life.

The Keeper isn't a fool. Merrill's too prideful and naive. What the Keeper did was wrong but it was done out of understanding and love. She became this abomination instead of Merrill. I have my doubts if Merrill's truly done with all this nasty things. She promised me she was done with it once before and that was a lie.

[Foolsfolly]

And she never says that demons are not evil.

No she says the Pride Demon was a nice helpful spirit because it offered her something she wanted.

[Nathan Redgrave]

She did say at one point that there was "nothing inherently evil about blood magic" (Anders, in the party at the time, responds with the obvious question: "Are you REALLY that STUPID?!"). As for demons, she never says they're not evil, but she does say at one point that they "can't help what they are."

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 22 mars 2011 - 09:28 .

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

She didn't do it for Merrill because she knew Merrill.

Fenryel was taking a chance, with Merrill it was a garentee she would go Abomination. There's no way Merrill stood a chance against that Pride Demon. All the demon would have to say is, "Together we can rise Arthalan and return the elves to their proper place."

And Merrill would smile and say, "Oh, that's what an abomination means? I thought it was something icky and messy. It can't be evil if it's what I want."

And BAM now there's a Merrill Abomination running around killing and generally doing evil deeds. The Keeper loves Merrill and knows Meriill too well to assume Merrill could resist this. Merrill is so damned that she's spent 7 years away from her clan and family, living in destution and only returning to continue to work on a foul evil artifact that's become her whole life.

The Keeper isn't a fool. Merrill's too prideful and naive. What the Keeper did was wrong but it was done out of understanding and love. She became this abomination instead of Merrill. I have my doubts if Merrill's truly done with all this nasty things. She promised me she was done with it once before and that was a lie.

Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying a naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp and understand had more of a chance of resisting demons than Merril, who already understands them somewhat?
To say nothing of the fact that they outright say Feynriel would be the most powerful abomination in the world if let loose.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

She did say at one point that
there was "nothing inherently evil about blood magic" (Anders, in the
party at the time, responds with the obvious question: "Are you REALLY
that STUPID?!").

And yet, she's not wrong. Accusations of stupidity from an abomination aren't exactly credible.

As for demons, she never says they're not evil, but she
does say at one point that they "can't help what they are."

Which is true. From everything we've seen of demons and spirits, this is exactly the case.
This is something Merril understands, and Anders doesn't until it's too late.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Kartikeya]

cglasgow wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

That last one is a kicker. Have Hawke ask her what will happen if she becomes an abomination too powerful for Hawke to stop. Sure, Hawke has plot armor, and Hawke has done awesome things by that point, but there is no way for Merrill to absolutely know for sure that Hawke will totally be able to kill her if she's become an abomination.

By this point in the game she's watched you beat the living **** out of a pride demon that beat her.  While in the Fade.    Not to mention killing your way through enough blood mages, abominations, giant monsters, and maybe a High Dragon...

Really, its not like the girl is making a sucker bet or anything.

But Merrill is convinced, utterly, that the danger will fall entirely on her shoulders and that if anyone is going to get hurt in this venture, it will be her and her alone. This is wrong. You can argue until you're blue in the face as to whether she's ultimately responsible for what happens to the Keeper and her clan, but there's no real arguing that insisting that the risk can only be to herself is naive. What would have happened if the Keeper never intervened and abomination!Merrill managed to kill Hawke and her companions on the mountain?

Ever heard of something called the Harrowing?  

If you're already standing there over the mage's unconscious body with a sword at their neck, you can generally kill any abomination before it's able to move.  The change is swift, but not lightspeed.

That's what Merrill is effectively inviting you to, remember.   Her own Harrowing.   You're filling in for the templars.   'I'm going to go confront a demon in the Fade.  If I lose, kill me before I can hurt anyone.'   Its done every damn week in Thedas, inside the Circles.

Of course, and by that point, Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall and so on and so forth. But it's still not a guarantee. Nothing is a guarantee. She is risking other people's lives, however small that risk might be, and she doesn't seem to recognize that this is a possibility until the moment Marethari dies. Note that when she shows up to find her clan still camping on the mountain, she doesn't stop to consider that, again, if Hawke somehow fails, her clan are directly in the path of destruction.

Note that I find this tragic but entirely understandable. Merrill is young. I don't know how old she actually is, but her demeanor, maturity, and behavior all speak to rebellious teenager. How many of us sat around thinking out every possible consequence of our actions in a reasonable fashion at that age? How many of us bother to do that when we're older anyway?

And the Harrowing, as you point out, specifically puts the mage into an unconscious state. I never gathered whether this was going to happen with Merrill or not. Marethari certainly doesn't fall down unconscious before the demon takes over. Plus, the Harrowing always struck me as an abysmally bad idea, even if there aren't necessarily any better ways to determine if a mage can resist a demon. Yes, let's test this young mage's ability to resist temptation by forcing them to face a demon that will tempt them. Passing your Harrowing certainly doesn't mean you will always resist demons, after all. If that were the case, there would be no need for the Templars after a mage has their Harrowing, and there wouldn't be mages turning right and left to demons as their last desperate attempt to survive.

[cglasgow]

Not to mention that Merethari's main purpose for sending you into the Fade is to kill Feynriel; if you can save him, that's great, but Merethari emphasizes the absolute necessity of making sure that you don't leave his mindscape until Feynriel is either demon-free or Tranquil.

Also, 'Merrill turns against you in the Fade!' sequence is not really proof she's bad; every party member except Anders (who's already possessed) and Sebastian (who won't enter the Fade at all) has a sequence where they'll turn on you. Yes, even Varric. It just depends on who else is in the party and which demons you visit first.

[The Angry One]

If you enter the Fade you are unconcious by default unless you happen to be a Tevinter Magister of the kind that can physically enter it.

[cglasgow]

Kartikeya wrote...

And the Harrowing, as you point out, specifically puts the mage into an unconscious state. I never gathered whether this was going to happen with Merrill or not.

It certainly would be the logical arrangement, now isn't it?  If your argument has to assume that Hawke & Co will deliberately do the most retarded thing, well, that's not reasonable.

Marethari certainly doesn't fall down unconscious before the demon takes over.

Marethari is already an abomination before you even start up the mountain.  And Marethari deliberately invited the damn thing in.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[Maria Caliban]

Kartikeya wrote...

... but there is no way for Merrill to absolutely know for sure that Hawke will totally be able to kill her if she's become an abomination.

Seriously?

That's like suggesting that after going through the Circle Tower, the Bracilian Forest, and the Deep Roads, Leliana can't be 100% sure that the Warden could defeat a group of darkspawn.

Merrill has watched Hawke kill abominations for seven years. You've defeated dragons, ancient rock wraths, the profane, scores of blood mages, demons, more blood mages, tal vashoth, the arishock, templars, revenants, shadow warriors, arcane horrors, roving gangs of thugs, and more demons.

Merrill can be a bit slow, but by this time, I think she'd have wrapped her head around the idea that Hawke can kill damn near everything. An abomination is not going to cause Hawke any trouble.

[The Angry One]

mrsph wrote...

Hawke: I don't want this demon, who wants to possess feynriel, to possess him.

Merrill: Derp +10 rivalry.

In my playthroughs you only get Merril rivalry if you just pick the "Die demon!" option without listening to what he has to say.
Merril isn't disagreeing because you don't want to let the demon possess someone, she does so if you refuse to even hear him out.

[Kartikeya]

The Angry One wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

She didn't do it for Merrill because she knew Merrill.

Fenryel was taking a chance, with Merrill it was a garentee she would go Abomination. There's no way Merrill stood a chance against that Pride Demon. All the demon would have to say is, "Together we can rise Arthalan and return the elves to their proper place."

And Merrill would smile and say, "Oh, that's what an abomination means? I thought it was something icky and messy. It can't be evil if it's what I want."

And BAM now there's a Merrill Abomination running around killing and generally doing evil deeds. The Keeper loves Merrill and knows Meriill too well to assume Merrill could resist this. Merrill is so damned that she's spent 7 years away from her clan and family, living in destution and only returning to continue to work on a foul evil artifact that's become her whole life.

The Keeper isn't a fool. Merrill's too prideful and naive. What the Keeper did was wrong but it was done out of understanding and love. She became this abomination instead of Merrill. I have my doubts if Merrill's truly done with all this nasty things. She promised me she was done with it once before and that was a lie.

Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying a naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp and understand had more of a chance of resisting demons than Merril, who already understands them somewhat?
To say nothing of the fact that they outright say Feynriel would be the most powerful abomination in the world if let loose.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

She did say at one point that
there was "nothing inherently evil about blood magic" (Anders, in the
party at the time, responds with the obvious question: "Are you REALLY
that STUPID?!").

And yet, she's not wrong. Accusations of stupidity from an abomination aren't exactly credible.

As for demons, she never says they're not evil, but she
does say at one point that they "can't help what they are."

Which is true. From everything we've seen of demons and spirits, this is exactly the case.
This is something Merril understands, and Anders doesn't until it's too late.

And yet, if you bring Merrill along on that quest, the naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp DOES stand a better chance at resisting the demons than Merrill does. Probably because he knows he's still a naive young boy who has a lot to learn, and therefore he's open to being questioned or being told 'hey, that's a demon and it's lying to you'.

Merrill believes that she can control the situation. Always. Whether it's by doing things entirely on her own (note that if you refuse to help her, she says she'll go see the demon on her own or something, so WITHOUT Hawke as her backup if something goes wrong), or by believing things will simply happen a certain way (Hawke will totes take me down if I'm dangerous, no one else will interfere), it's a flaw, and she's wrong.

[Taleroth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's like suggesting that after going through the Circle Tower, the Bracilian Forest, and the Deep Roads, Leliana can't be 100% sure that the Warden could defeat a group of darkspawn.

Well, the taint could still kill someone.  Quick, make sure everyone in your party has a specialization or at least a unique face model!

[cglasgow]

Kartikeya wrote...

And yet, if you bring Merrill along on that quest, the naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp DOES stand a better chance at resisting the demons than Merrill does.

Yes, its only Merrill who fails on that quest.  The parts where Isabela, Varric, Sir Fenris Of Magic-Hating, and even flarging Aveline the Lawful Good can also succumb if the stars were right were just all optical illusions.

[Malanek]

Kartikeya wrote...
And yet, if you bring Merrill along on that quest, the naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp DOES stand a better chance at resisting the demons than Merrill does. Probably because he knows he's still a naive young boy who has a lot to learn, and therefore he's open to being questioned or being told 'hey, that's a demon and it's lying to you'.

Merrill believes that she can control the situation. Always. Whether it's by doing things entirely on her own (note that if you refuse to help her, she says she'll go see the demon on her own or something, so WITHOUT Hawke as her backup if something goes wrong), or by believing things will simply happen a certain way (Hawke will totes take me down if I'm dangerous, no one else will interfere), it's a flaw, and she's wrong.

I agree. Merill is filled with pride and although powerful, is quite reckless. Easy pickings for a demon.

[The Angry One]

mrsph wrote...

It's a ****ing demon in the fade where a man about to get possessed! What the hell could she possibly think it wanted!?

Irrelevant. It wants to talk. It may have info. Maybe for some reason it just wants to say hi.
The point is Merril is against you killing the demon just for being a demon. Killing it for wanting to possess a boy? She's fine with that.

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...


Seriously?

That's like suggesting that after going through the Circle Tower, the Bracilian Forest, and the Deep Roads, Leliana can't be 100% sure that the Warden could defeat a group of darkspawn.

Merrill has watched Hawke kill abominations for seven years. You've defeated dragons, ancient rock wraths, the profane, scores of blood mages, demons, more blood mages, tal vashoth, the arishock, templars, revenants, shadow warriors, arcane horrors, roving gangs of thugs, and more demons.

Merrill can be a bit slow, but by this time, I think she'd have wrapped her head around the idea that Hawke can kill damn near everything. An abomination is not going to cause Hawke any trouble.

Though it is a bit of a jerkish thing to do to someone who loves you.  Hawke's probably feeling crappy enough as it is, without being made to kill Merrill

[Nathan Redgrave]

The Angry One wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Hawke: I don't want this demon, who wants to possess feynriel, to possess him.

Merrill: Derp +10 rivalry.

In my playthroughs you only get Merril rivalry if you just pick the "Die demon!" option without listening to what he has to say.
Merril isn't disagreeing because you don't want to let the demon possess someone, she does so if you refuse to even hear him out.

I got a bit of rivalry for refusing even though I'd heard him out and Merril herself had said "I don't know if we should be doing this."

It was only a +5 rivalry boost in both cases, though, which may as well be nothing. She gets a +10 if you say "Demons always betray you in the end" when she's tempted, though, so if you're going friendship, pick the snarky response to her temptation instead of the "paragon" response.

[The Angry One]

Malanek999 wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...
And yet, if you bring Merrill along on that quest, the naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp DOES stand a better chance at resisting the demons than Merrill does. Probably because he knows he's still a naive young boy who has a lot to learn, and therefore he's open to being questioned or being told 'hey, that's a demon and it's lying to you'.

Merrill believes that she can control the situation. Always. Whether it's by doing things entirely on her own (note that if you refuse to help her, she says she'll go see the demon on her own or something, so WITHOUT Hawke as her backup if something goes wrong), or by believing things will simply happen a certain way (Hawke will totes take me down if I'm dangerous, no one else will interfere), it's a flaw, and she's wrong.

I agree. Merill is filled with pride and although powerful, is quite reckless. Easy pickings for a demon.

The same applies to every companion in the Fade. The reason Feynriel can evade the demons is that it appears he isn't sure what he wants - in the end he decides on a course of action that neither of the demons presented to him.
With your companions they are presented with EXACTLY what they want and THEY ALL FALL FOR IT.
Singling out Merril because of this is silly and this has been pointed out many times.

I got a bit of rivalry for refusing even though I'd heard him out
and Merril herself had said "I don't know if we should be doing this."

It
was only a +5 rivalry boost in both cases, though, which may as well be
nothing. She gets a +10 if you say "Demons always betray you in the
end" when she's tempted, though, so if you're going friendship, pick the
snarky response to her temptation instead of the "paragon"
response.

Is she already in rivalry? In friendship mode I don't encounter this.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 09:50 .