422 réponses à ce sujet

[Kartikeya]

cglasgow wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

And the Harrowing, as you point out, specifically puts the mage into an unconscious state. I never gathered whether this was going to happen with Merrill or not.

It certainly would be the logical arrangement, now isn't it?  If your argument has to assume that Hawke & Co will deliberately do the most retarded thing, well, that's not reasonable.

Marethari certainly doesn't fall down unconscious before the demon takes over.

Marethari is already an abomination before you even start up the mountain.  And Marethari deliberately invited the damn thing in.

The short story written to introduce Merrill has the demon speaking to them while they're awake and merely in the vicinity of the statue. Sure, it would be logical for Hawke to have Merrill at swordpoint before she starts making bargains, but when in the entire game has Merrill really waited to take precautions like that?

Yes, Hawke has done awesome things. Hawke's the protagonist and has plot armor. The game demands that of course Hawke will win or you'll have to reload until she does. That does not change that she is risking other people by doing this. I'm not saying that it was unreasonable to think that Hawke could stop her if things got out of hand, not at all. It's pefectly reasonable. What I'm saying is that the possibility that things might go wildly out of control anyway is something that never seems to occur to her. It's a subtle distinction, but it's something that hinders Merrill throughout the game. She believes she can control the situation and that she will be the only person to be hurt by it. That's why it's tragic.

P.S. as a character, I like Merrill. My posts aren't meant to be a rant about how Merrill is zomg terrible. Every character in this game has pretty solid flaws and blind spots.

[Foolsfolly]

Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying a naive young boy with a power he is only beginning to grasp and understand had more of a chance of resisting demons than Merril, who already understands them somewhat?

The boy has no history of giving in to demons. At the time the Keeper does her thing with the Pride Demon Merrill's agreed with demons at least once and possibly twice.

[Nathan Redgrave]

It only seems apparent with Merril moreso than the others because the idea that she might be screwed over by demons is hovering over her character for the entire game.

[Foolsfolly]

mrsph wrote...

Aveline, Varric, Fenris, and Isabella are pretty excusable. None of them have fade experiance or know how tricky demons can be.

Merrill is the person who pretty much gloats how she can handle demons in several of her banters.

And it's a Pride Demon that she always gives in to.

I'm not hating on the character. The fact that she's weak around demons is one of the things I love about her. Just because she says she can handle herself in the demon department doesn't make it truth, people. Experience proves that she cannot.

[Dean_the_Young]

mrsph wrote...

The others are excusable.

Merrill of all people should know better.

Know better in which sense? You can make deals with demons if you're prepared to accept the costs of such. That there are costs does not dissuade a deal.

Demons are finicky like that. You can deal with them, and you can come ahead, so long as you are prepared to accept the costs that can follow.

[Malanek]

The Angry One wrote...
The same applies to every companion in the Fade. The reason Feynriel can evade the demons is that it appears he isn't sure what he wants - in the end he decides on a course of action that neither of the demons presented to him.
With your companions they are presented with EXACTLY what they want and THEY ALL FALL FOR IT.
Singling out Merril because of this is silly and this has been pointed out many times.

What it shows is that Merill is fallible. She has chosen to walk a dangerous path that requires great self restraint and the ability to perceive truth and lies from demons. It doesn't really matter that Isabella, Varric etc don't know how to bargain with demons because they don't need to. It shows that the next time Merill is in that situation, she is likely to succumb.

[The Angry One]

Despite popular belief, Merril has never claimed to be infallible, nor that demons are harmless to her.
It's quite the opposite. It's Anders who doesn't understand Fade inhabitants and makes assumptions that have lead him to being an abomination.

Again, she's taking risks. But those risks are hers to take.
As for the other companions, the nature of demons is well known to anyone in Thedas. They don't even pause to think about that before making deals with demons.

[cglasgow]

mrsph wrote...

Aveline, Varric, Fenris, and Isabella are pretty excusable. None of them have fade experiance or know how tricky demons can be.

Bwahahahahahha... are you seriously saying Fenris doesn't how dangerous magic can be?   Seriously?   Seriously?!?

And yet, he succumbs to the Pride demon too.   Ironically enough, for the exact same reason as Merrill -- 'I can give you the power to free your people!'

I agree with the poster above; the only reason Feynriel lasted so long is because he had multiple demons in his head trying to pull him in different directions.   If he'd just had to face the Pride demon or the Desire demon alone, how long would he have lasted?  That kid was completely happy in both of his illusions and completely trusting everything the demon said, until you came along and dope slapped him.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[Gemini1179]

I love Merrill. She has faults like everyone else, but as Isabela tells Varric, the only thing she hurts are the flowers she plucks from other people's gardens. Besides, her costume change is the best.

What I can't understand is how anyone can find the slightest thing about Fenris tolerable. It's a good thing his Rivalry bonus is better than his Friendship one is all I have to say.

Honestly, I don't really understand the plot of the game. How can Hawke, who either IS a mage, or has a sister who is a mage, ever side with the templars or agree with Fenris' views? But I digress, this is getting out of hand.

I like Merrill because I do, it's of no consequence to anyone else.

[Dean_the_Young]

Foolsfolly wrote...

And she never says that demons are not evil.

No she says the Pride Demon was a nice helpful spirit because it offered her something she wanted.

She that it was nice about it, which isn't the same thing.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

And she never says that demons are not evil.

No she says the Pride Demon was a nice helpful spirit because it offered her something she wanted.

She that it was nice about it, which isn't the same thing.

Merrill's strategy is probably to get from the demons what she wants without giving them what they want. Basically to cheat demons. Which is risky. In that case she is just like Tali. She sends deactivated Geth to her father. And it shows it was quite the risk, wasn't it?

[cglasgow]

Gemini1179 wrote...

What I can't understand is how anyone can find the slightest thing about Fenris tolerable. It's a good thing his Rivalry bonus is better than his Friendship one is all I have to say.

He lightens up a lot if you do his romance path, although he's still an utter tool to Merrill.  (And Anders, but meh, Anders has it coming.)

Also, given all the mindwiping and torture and crap he's been through, Fenris at least has a reason to have issues.  While still being able to remember that, y'know, killing innocent people is bad.

Basically, the dude is the Dragon Age version of Wolverine -- the original version, like early Claremont, not the modern version.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:05 .

[cglasgow]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She that it was nice about it, which isn't the same thing.

Yeah, she's not saying it was good, she's saying it was charming.

Which I'm sure it was.  Demons can be remarkably smooth when making the sales pitch.

Also shows that Merrill isn't quite as naive as believed, as she's able to spot when a demon is only pretending to be nice because you've got something it wants.

[AlexXIV]

cglasgow wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She that it was nice about it, which isn't the same thing.

Yeah, she's not saying it was good, she's saying it was charming.

Which I'm sure it was.  Demons can be remarkably smooth when making the sales pitch.

Also shows that Merrill isn't quite as naive as believed, as she's able to spot when a demon is only pretending to be nice because you've got something it wants.

Same thing when she talks about the mugging outside her doorstep. I am thinking she is just trying at sarcasm at times. And rather successful.

[Foolsfolly]

The Angry One wrote...

Despite popular belief, Merril has never claimed to be infallible, nor that demons are harmless to her.
It's quite the opposite. It's Anders who doesn't understand Fade inhabitants and makes assumptions that have lead him to being an abomination.

Again, she's taking risks. But those risks are hers to take.
As for the other companions, the nature of demons is well known to anyone in Thedas. They don't even pause to think about that before making deals with demons.

But she's too confident and set in her assumptions. She never questions if blood magic is bad, she just assumes it isn't. She doesn't question if a demon can actually help her save her people, she assumes it wouldn't lie. And if any other character, including Hawke, question that she gets really childish. She will not listen, she's right, she will save her people.

All the from the moment you meet that Dalish Elf on the mountain she says that they're just being ignorant. For what? For distrusting demons and blood mages? For listening to their Keeper who is the most knowledable person on these subjects?

Merrill thinks she's the smartest person in the room. She's bright but it's that pride that leads her down a dark path.

Perhaps, there's redemption for Merrill.

If there's a companion from DA2 that I'd want as a companion in DA3 it's Merrill. I want to see if she learns from this whole ordeal or if she's going to ignore it. She has great potential in further games.

[The Angry One]

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

[Reidbynature]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

... but there is no way for Merrill to absolutely know for sure that Hawke will totally be able to kill her if she's become an abomination.

Seriously?

That's like suggesting that after going through the Circle Tower, the Bracilian Forest, and the Deep Roads, Leliana can't be 100% sure that the Warden could defeat a group of darkspawn.

Merrill has watched Hawke kill abominations for seven years. You've defeated dragons, ancient rock wraths, the profane, scores of blood mages, demons, more blood mages, tal vashoth, the arishock, templars, revenants, shadow warriors, arcane horrors, roving gangs of thugs, and more demons.

Merrill can be a bit slow, but by this time, I think she'd have wrapped her head around the idea that Hawke can kill damn near everything. An abomination is not going to cause Hawke any trouble.

I don't what to say here exactly.  If we're to consider it in terms of story then you have to believe that the main character is a flesh and blood character and susceptible to death.  Otherwise it's pointless to discuss any danger with any logic when you can simply go 'nuh-uh he is Superman and it is just a few hundred muggers'.  Hawke has to at least seem vulnerable to danger otherwise it's not exciting.  Plus Hawke has no knowledge of how powerful this demon might be.  Arguing that it was weaker than such and such after the fact is irrelevant.  And even if you're arguing on the basis of the other threats Hawke has overcame, they still faced a danger to him because even a flesh and blood character would die from something as simple and unimpressive as a stab from a little knife.

[TobiTobsen]

cglasgow wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She that it was nice about it, which isn't the same thing.

Yeah, she's not saying it was good, she's saying it was charming.

Which I'm sure it was.  Demons can be remarkably smooth when making the sales pitch.

Also shows that Merrill isn't quite as naive as believed, as she's able to spot when a demon is only pretending to be nice because you've got something it wants.

Yup. Merrill learns her lesson over the years:


[*]Merrill: Are you alright?
[*]Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be alright?
[*]Merrill: I'm sorry.
[*]Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
[*]Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
[*]Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't

[Malanek]

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But she's too confident and set in her assumptions. She never questions if blood magic is bad, she just assumes it isn't. She doesn't question if a demon can actually help her save her people, she assumes it wouldn't lie. And if any other character, including Hawke, question that she gets really childish. She will not listen, she's right, she will save her people.

Everyone in the game makes assumptions for better or worse. Merril isn't 100% right but she isn't a fool either.
Nor is blood magic inherently evil, so why should she question that? Hell, her worst opposition in party banter comes from an abomination and a guy who hates mages no matter what they do, so what's her basis for listening to them anyway?

All the from the moment you meet that Dalish Elf on the mountain she says that they're just being ignorant. For what? For distrusting demons and blood mages? For listening to their Keeper who is the most knowledable person on these subjects?

For refusing to help her in the first place?
Remember, she turned to blood magic and the demon because they wouldn't help her.

Merrill thinks she's the smartest person in the room. She's bright but it's that pride that leads her down a dark path

But the fact remains, she is smart. What she does could be of great benefit to her people.
She may be wrong, it may all end in tears, but she has every right to try and be determined that what she's doing is right.

[Zan Mura]

mrsph wrote...

It's a ****ing demon in the fade where a man about to get possessed! What the hell could she possibly think it wanted!?

Are there truly people like you? I don't mean to offend, just that exactly that attitude is something I have never understood, and never will. Always thought it was something only wildly exaggarated zealous personalities in movies and games do.

What Merrill does, and where I *absolutely* agree with her, is think less of someone who doesn't even try to understand. Someone who just goes "terrorist!" or "monster!" and loses all reason the second they hear or see something about a blood mage or a demon, immediately resorting to extreme paranoia and violence. And for what, because someone said so? Because you were raised to believe that? It doesn't matter if it was reasonably obvious what the demon was about to say, just being allowed to say it would do you no harm. If there was even a chance that he would offer you useful information - as it turns out in a way he did, as without him you had no idea what you were getting yourself into -, then it's a chance worth taking. Every time.

This is what I loved about DAO too. I was allowed to explore these venues, to discuss with demons and to collect information, even if in the end I was obviously NOT going to make any kind of deals. I was allowed to do all that without the companions immediately going all rage on me. I will *never* be the kind of person to shoot first and ask questions later, not unless there's a good reason to expect that it's a setup where the opponent is just playing for time. And I will never ever accept that feature in anyone else either. I've always found it difficult to deal with people who fall into extremes, when the world doesn't work like that. Kinda like all the debates about the ending in ME2.

[The Angry One]

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

He puts demons and spirits on different tiers, as if spirits were far less dangerous.
In the end we find out spirits can be far more hazardous.

[Reidbynature]

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

Justice/Vengeance.

And I disagree with The Angry One about Merrill being the expert.  She's clearly just naive in another way.  She says she knows better, but continues to prove otherwise.

[cglasgow]

Malanek999 wrote...

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

How did Anders end up an abomination?