422 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Yup. Merrill learns her lesson over the years:

She always knew that. She never refers to demons as not dangerous. She simply doesn't distinguish between demons and spirits to the point Anders does, because she knows both groups can't help what they are.

Reidbynature wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

Justice/Vengeance.

And
I disagree with The Angry One about Merrill being the expert.  She's
clearly just naive in another way.  She says she knows better, but
continues to prove otherwise.

An expert in that she's aware of the nature of Fade beings far more than Anders is.
Her own conciets and ambitions are another matter altogether. Again, she consorts with a demon not because she thinks it's easy and harmless, but because it's what she must do.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 10:15 .

[cglasgow]

Reidbynature wrote...

She says she knows better, but continues to prove otherwise.

In what way is it 'proven otherwise'?

Every statement Merrill makes about demons and blood magic in the game, she proves absolutely correct.   Right down to telling Anders that he's the ****up when it comes to abominations, not her.

It's people that Merrill mis-estimates.   Ordinary, human (well, elven) people.   That's what went wrong.

[AlexXIV]

TobiTobsen wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She that it was nice about it, which isn't the same thing.

Yeah, she's not saying it was good, she's saying it was charming.

Which I'm sure it was.  Demons can be remarkably smooth when making the sales pitch.

Also shows that Merrill isn't quite as naive as believed, as she's able to spot when a demon is only pretending to be nice because you've got something it wants.

Yup. Merrill learns her lesson over the years:



[*]Merrill: Are you alright?

[*]Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be alright?

[*]Merrill: I'm sorry.

[*]Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

[*]Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.

[*]Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't

This is the most important point in maybe the whole game. Anders merged with a spirt, or demon, whatever you want to call it. And this is the most stupid thing a mage or anyone can do. Merrill 'deals with demons, but she does so carefully and always fully aware of the risks. And I think that was the basic difference of Arlathan and the Tevinters as well. The mages of Arlathan were like Merril. The mages of Tevinter like Anders. To understand how to deal with demons properly makes the difference between magic that can be beneficial for the world and such that is harmful.

[Malanek]

Zan Mura wrote...
What Merrill does, and where I *absolutely* agree with her, is think less of someone who doesn't even try to understand. Someone who just goes "terrorist!" or "monster!" and loses all reason the second they hear or see something about a blood mage or a demon, immediately resorting to extreme paranoia and violence. And for what, because someone said so? Because you were raised to believe that? It doesn't matter if it was reasonably obvious what the demon was about to say, just being allowed to say it would do you no harm. If there was even a chance that he would offer you useful information - as it turns out in a way he did, as without him you had no idea what you were getting yourself into -, then it's a chance worth taking. Every time.

We are talking about the demons in the fade right? Wow, cannot disagree strongly enough. You know they are trying to corrupt your companions... and they succeed twice. If you could kill it before it gets a chance to do that it is clearly the better strategy.

[Foolsfolly]

If we're really going to talk about Anders being the wrong guy to talk down to Merrill we have to talk about one simple fact.

We all met Justice. Justice was an honorable spirit who helps people. Back after Awakening came out would any of you have had a problem with Anders and Justice merging? We had no idea that Justice could be corrupted by merging with a mortal and turn into a terrorist.

The first game had a mortal/spirit mix with Wynne and other than being a touch holier than thou she was no worse for the merging. The thing with Anders/Justice was unforseeable, the thing about dealing with demons however we know never goes right.

[Malanek]

Reidbynature wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

Justice/Vengeance.

Justice/Vengeance isn't a demon. Not saying Anders isn't screwed up but it isn't the same.

[Freestorm Skinn]

How many people have noticed that Merrill is also driven by guilt? She keeps referring to the friend who was lost in the mirror back in the Dalish origin back ORIGINS and she wants to find him and get him back as much as acquire lost Elven knowledge. She even talks about hallucinating and seeing her friend Temlen on the streets of Kirkwall because she still blames herself.  This makes her utterly obsessed, which is why she won't stray from the path or listen to anyone telling her to stop.

Her story is every bit as tragic as Hawke's.

Modifié par Freestorm Skinn, 22 mars 2011 - 10:22 .

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

She says she knows better, but continues to prove otherwise.

In what way is it 'proven otherwise'?

Every statement Merrill makes about demons and blood magic in the game, she proves absolutely correct.   Right down to telling Anders that he's the ****up when it comes to abominations, not her.

It's people that Merrill mis-estimates.   Ordinary, human (well, elven) people.   That's what went wrong.

The Keepers says the Pride Demon was fooling Merrill into rebuilding the mirror so the demon could escape from its prison. The mirror was going to be a doorway for that demon to escape. Merrill believed a demon.

Merrill also believes blood magic is not evil, something that hasn't been proven or disproven by the games yet. But I'm willing to guess that no good can come from Blood Magic.

I'm with Irving, Wynne, and Fenris on that one.

[Reidbynature]

cglasgow wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

She says she knows better, but continues to prove otherwise.

In what way is it 'proven otherwise'?

Every statement Merrill makes about demons and blood magic in the game, she proves absolutely correct.   Right down to telling Anders that he's the ****up when it comes to abominations, not her.

It's people that Merrill mis-estimates.   Ordinary, human (well, elven) people.   That's what went wrong.

For all her words she was still intent on consorting with demons, even after one turned her in the fade and putting everyone in danger.  And for what?  An artifact that does who knows what and that no one but her wanted anything to do with.

[AlexXIV]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

How many people have noticed that Merrill is also driven by guilt? She keeps referring to the friend who was lost in the mirror back in the Dalish origin back ORIGINS and she wants to find him and get him back as much as acquire lost Elven knowledge. She even talks about hallucinating and seeing her friend Temlen on the streets of Kirkwall because she's still blames herself.

Her story is every bit as tragic as Hawke's.

She is also driven by pride and she deals with a pride demon. Which is why I would like to have seen what happens without the keeper messing with the demon. She is proud enough to think that she and maybe she alone can give back the dalish what they have lost. And that's why she failed in the fade.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Keepers says the Pride Demon was fooling Merrill into rebuilding the mirror so the demon could escape from its prison. The mirror was going to be a doorway for that demon to escape.

... you are aware that eluvians actually are doorways into the Fade, right?  That's one of the things the elves of Arlathan used them for.

The demon 'deceived' Merrill by doing the one thing that works even better than lying; telling only part of the truth and then shutting up.

For all her words she was still intent on consorting with demons, even
after one turned her in the fade and putting everyone in danger.

*points up*  Will people stop bringing up the Fade thing?  Everybody can turn on you in the Fade except the one guy who's already an abomination; its scripted that way.

Oh dear Maker, Merrill actually failed one Will save in seven years; surely that means she's a horrible horrible person.   Never mind that Aveline, the most lawful good person in town, was willing to sell me out for just an illusion of being back with her dead husband, which is something really really dumb.   No, its just Merrill being a horrible worthless person again.   It can't possibly be that you were in the Fade mindscape of a kid who had the mutant power to make demons extra-super-duper-strong.

Because, y'know, its not like the Keeper didn't tell us about that or anything.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:26 .

[Wulfram]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Besides, her costume change is the best.

I think she looks better in green, personally.

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

If we're really going to talk about Anders being the wrong guy to talk down to Merrill we have to talk about one simple fact.

We all met Justice. Justice was an honorable spirit who helps people. Back after Awakening came out would any of you have had a problem with Anders and Justice merging? We had no idea that Justice could be corrupted by merging with a mortal and turn into a terrorist.

The first game had a mortal/spirit mix with Wynne and other than being a touch holier than thou she was no worse for the merging. The thing with Anders/Justice was unforseeable, the thing about dealing with demons however we know never goes right.

Justice's nature was never truly challenged in Awakening.
Being part of a mage and seeing the injustice against mages in Kirkwall made Justice into the danger he became.
In fact, your post is the reason why spirits are rather more dangerous than demons. You EXPECT demons to be treacherous and evil. You don't expect bad actions from a spirit of justice.
And yet when it comes down to it Justice is ready to kill innocents and perform acts of terrorism because the counters to it's very nature are so great that it overwhelms him.
This is what Anders didn't understand and why a spirit abomination is still an abomination.

Malanek999 wrote...

Justice/Vengeance isn't a demon. Not saying Anders isn't screwed up but it isn't the same.

Merril's point, and one that rings true in the game is that demons and spirits are not different types of being.
They are the same "species", and in the end act more similarily than you expect. They simply are what they are.
Desire can't help feed off desires and grant them. Sloth can't help generating apathy. Justice can't help fighting against the wrongs that people commit, etc.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[Zan Mura]

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

Well I wouldn't sign that, but if we play along: Merrill never really becomes possessed. All the blame from the downsides of her blood magic can ultimately be laid at the feet of those around her. She didn't kill Pol, she didn't force the Keeper to absorb the demon and become an abomination, she certainly never treated the other Dalish with the disdain and disrespect - even brutal murderous violence - they constantly gave her, and where your party companions constantly insulted her without being provoked, she pretty much never even retaliated. At the end of the day, Merrill is the victim of a LOT of prejudice and verbal & mental abuse, but aside from being a blood mage, she never does anything to hurt anyone. A healthy person in her position probably would have. I would have.

On the other hand, Anders' entire terrorist act can be blamed solely on him being an abomination. It's easy to see how in his mind the line between what is him and what is Justice turned Vengeance gets blurred over the years. And while I wouldn't say he deems himself an expert on demons and abominations, it's no secret that it's that possession that drives him into murdering civilians. In the end, it seems pretty obvious that Anders was a whole lot more dangerous than Merrill. Merrill never even threatened innocents, where Anders lost control multiple times.

Of course it isn't this black & white, but it's not at all hard to see that quite in accordance with the Dragon Age theme, things aren't always what they seem just because other people say it must be so. Whatever risk might have been involved, whatever the future might have brought, Merrill the blood mage's deeds were never evil. Where Anders' "benevolent" Justice clearly made him dangerous to everyone, and cost countless lives in the end.

[Maria Caliban]

Foolsfolly wrote...

We all met Justice. Justice was an honorable spirit who helps people.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

He's honorable. He helps people. But justice need mercy. It needs forgiveness. It needs to be tempered with an understanding that punishment does not always solve a problem and can even make things worse.

It doesn't matter how honorable Justice is, he's a spirit. He can't compromise or be flexible.

Sticking a creature like that in your head is a bad idea.

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

If we're really going to talk about Anders being the wrong guy to talk down to Merrill we have to talk about one simple fact.

We all met Justice. Justice was an honorable spirit who helps people. Back after Awakening came out would any of you have had a problem with Anders and Justice merging? We had no idea that Justice could be corrupted by merging with a mortal and turn into a terrorist.

The first game had a mortal/spirit mix with Wynne and other than being a touch holier than thou she was no worse for the merging. The thing with Anders/Justice was unforseeable, the thing about dealing with demons however we know never goes right.

Justice's nature was never truly challenged in Awakening.
Being part of a mage and seeing the injustice against mages in Kirkwall made Justice into the danger he became.
In fact, your post is the reason why spirits are rather more dangerous than demons. You EXPECT demons to be treacherous and evil. You don't expect bad actions from a spirit of justice.
And yet when it comes down to it Justice is ready to kill innocents and perform acts of terrorism because the counters to it's very nature are so great that it overwhelms him.
This is what Anders didn't understand and why a spirit abomination is still an abomination.

Justice was AGAINST saving Amaranthine and AGAINST letting the Architect live. Justice is not the answer to all questions, and that's why the justice spirit is dangerous. Anders probably believes that justice is the only true way to deal with a problem. Since the justice spirit tells him so. But sometimes it takes much more than a strong sense of justice to make a good choice.

[Dr. Nexas]

Malanek999 wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

Justice/Vengeance.

Justice/Vengeance isn't a demon. Not saying Anders isn't screwed up but it isn't the same.

Spirits and demons are one in the same. The only real difference is that demons are obsessed with the physical world. Justice himself said this.

[Illwillsam]

The Angry One wrote...

Despite popular belief, Merril has never claimed to be infallible, nor that demons are harmless to her.
It's quite the opposite. It's Anders who doesn't understand Fade inhabitants and makes assumptions that have lead him to being an abomination.

Again, she's taking risks. But those risks are hers to take.
As for the other companions, the nature of demons is well known to anyone in Thedas. They don't even pause to think about that before making deals with demons.

This. She knew demons were dangerous, she was aware that she might and probably will lose and become an obomination. She asks Hawke to kill her if she does and makes several other statements regarding the future of your party that make it obvious that she does not hink she is infallible in any way, shape or form.

Her incorrect assumption was that the burdens of her actions were hers and hers alone to take, that her life was her own. The truth of the matter is, in effect, her life is not only hers, it also belongs to others who care for her as well. They will feel the burden of her choices and they will suffer, this is what she is dismissive of till that final battle with the demon. I think the keeper did what she did to show her this as well as protect her.

Anders on the other hand thought he could handle a spirit, he was the one who fell to his pride, if you chose to look at it that way.

[Foolsfolly]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

How many people have noticed that Merrill is also driven by guilt? She keeps referring to the friend who was lost in the mirror back in the Dalish origin back ORIGINS and she wants to find him and get him back as much as acquire lost Elven knowledge. She even talks about hallucinating and seeing her friend Temlen on the streets of Kirkwall because she still blames herself.  This makes her utterly obsessed, which is why she won't stray from the path or listen to anyone telling her to stop.

Her story is every bit as tragic as Hawke's.

That's why I love the character! She's tragic.

I feel sorry for her that she can't let go of the past. I feel sorry about how it hurts everyone around her. I love the character!

But you can't say she knew what she was doing. She assumes, incorrectly, that she could. But the whole thing was a ruse. The Pride Demon wanted her to repair the mirror so it could escape. She sold herself and possibly her clan to a demon who just wanted out.

Demons do not grant wishes. They have their own agendas and will tell you anything you want to hear to get you to help them. Merrill thinks she understands that but she TRUSTED a demon, full well knowing that you can't trust a demon.

And then she did it again in the Fade. And Anders again tells you during the Justice mission that she'll always pick the demon over Hawke. Anders isn't trying to sabatoge your relationship, he's trying to tell you something because he knows all too well what it's like to be in Merrill's shoes.

And again the Keeper did what she did because she knew Merrill her whole life. She knew Merrill continued to work on the mirror for 7 years no matter the cost. And she knew Merrill would give in to whatever the demon told her.

She's tragic. She's compassionate. She's cute. She's Merrill and I hope we see more of her in the future.

[AlexXIV]

Dr. Nexas wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In a way the dialog makes it seem that Merril is utterly naive about demons, and Anders is the expert.
But you learn it's really the other way around, and that's fairly clever.

How is Anders utterly naive about demons?

Justice/Vengeance.

Justice/Vengeance isn't a demon. Not saying Anders isn't screwed up but it isn't the same.

Spirits and demons are one in the same. The only real difference is that demons are obsessed with the physical world. Justice himself said this.

And thus he chose to merge with Anders because he is not obsessed witht he physical world. Funny how you can be 'wise' in regard to others and completely foolish in your own regard.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Foolsfolly wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

She says she knows better, but continues to prove otherwise.

In what way is it 'proven otherwise'?

Every statement Merrill makes about demons and blood magic in the game, she proves absolutely correct.   Right down to telling Anders that he's the ****up when it comes to abominations, not her.

It's people that Merrill mis-estimates.   Ordinary, human (well, elven) people.   That's what went wrong.

The Keepers says the Pride Demon was fooling Merrill into rebuilding the mirror so the demon could escape from its prison. The mirror was going to be a doorway for that demon to escape. Merrill believed a demon.

Merrill also believes blood magic is not evil, something that hasn't been proven or disproven by the games yet. But I'm willing to guess that no good can come from Blood Magic.

I'm with Irving, Wynne, and Fenris on that one.

Err, the PRIDE DEMON says that it was fooling Merrill. You know, the same abomination that stabs Merrill with a knife? Why are so many people so gleeful to accept the word of an abomination? The Pride Demon *tricked* the Keeper. The Pride Demon knew the Keeper worried about Merrill, so it lied to the Keeper in order to be freed from its prison! This is so basic and so elementary I wonder how people are missing this.

[Foolsfolly]

... you are aware that eluvians actually are doorways into the Fade, right? That's one of the things the elves of Arlathan used them for.

The demon 'deceived' Merrill by doing the one thing that works even better than lying; telling only part of the truth and then shutting up.

I know that because I played Witch Hunt. Merrill says it was just a way to communicate with other elves. She never lets on to knowing that they're doorways anywhere. I think that means the Pride Demon lied to her.

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

... you are aware that eluvians actually are doorways into the Fade, right? That's one of the things the elves of Arlathan used them for.

The demon 'deceived' Merrill by doing the one thing that works even better than lying; telling only part of the truth and then shutting up.

I know that because I played Witch Hunt. Merrill says it was just a way to communicate with other elves. She never lets on to knowing that they're doorways anywhere. I think that means the Pride Demon lied to her.

Except they *were* used to communicate.
Being doorways to the Fade is *how* they communicated.

[AlexXIV]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Err, the PRIDE DEMON says that it was fooling Merrill. You know, the same abomination that stabs Merrill with a knife? Why are so many people so gleeful to accept the word of an abomination? The Pride Demon *tricked* the Keeper. The Pride Demon knew the Keeper worried about Merrill, so it lied to the Keeper in order to be freed from its prison! This is so basic and so elementary I wonder how people are missing this.

I think demons only have a real chance to 'convince' people if these people's weakness is also the spirit's nature. So a pride demon has an easy job with a proud person. A desire demon with a desiring person, etc. Rage demons with angry people, etc. So if you deal with a pride demon you are the safer, the less pride is your habit.

[cglasgow]

Illwillsam wrote...

Her incorrect assumption was that the burdens of her actions were hers and hers alone to take, that her life was her own. The truth of the matter is, in effect, her life is not only hers, it also belongs to others who care for her as well. They will feel the burden of her choices and they will suffer, this is what she is dismissive of till that final battle with the demon.

Well, remember, Merrill that didn't think that anybody in her clan liked her; its not surprising that she didn't anticipate that Merethari would freak out at the thought of her dying.   The only thing she knew the Keeper had for her is disappointment; the Keeper didn't actually show the love until it was too late.  Poor Communication Kills, indeed.

As for the rest of your argument, here we enter upon one of the conundrums of philosophy, as the TF2 Engineer might put it; 'when does a human being have the right to decide, with nobody else having the right to say them nay, what cause they want to risk their own life for?'

In today's society, the answer to that question is 'When they become an adult.'   The age at which, y'know, you can volunteer for the military, or the police, or become a fireman, or do any other hazardous job, and your parents can still weep for you... but they can't legally stop you.

And Merrill is an adult; she has the tattoos, therefore, she is an adult by the standards of the Dalish.  They only get those when they stop being children and come of age.

The Keeper died because she treated Merrill like a child, even after Merrill had stopped being one.   There comes a point at which you have to let them go make their own mistakes; if you don't, you'll either wreck them, or wreck yourself.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:37 .