422 réponses à ce sujet

[RubiconI7]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

You folks aren't paying attention.


Merrill: Are you alright?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be alright?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

She knows exactly what she's doing. At first, she pretends it's okay because she doesn't want to scare you off--but she knows what demons can do, and she expects she'll be possessed. She tells Hawke to kill her when that happens. She thinks the goal (the eluvian) is worth the risk (possession). But she's not an idiot. Far from it, she knows exactly what'll happen and she's been preparing for it for 7 years.

You know Bioware was successful in crafting a chracter when the hate equates to the love...

Anyway I agree, she is sheltered and naive. It does not provide the excuse to be "blind" to the risks but it is obvious she knows the risks quite well. She just wants to do her job too keenly; reclaiming lost Dalish knowledge. Blood magic is risky without a doubt but one needs to admit its uses. The stigma also seems to stem from the immoral method blood magic uses. One does not deal with spirits just because one is a blood mage, Wynne (sp?) and Anders both dealt with spirits and they are not blood mages.

Merrill can be described as dedicated with a sense of perseverance, albeit naive and stubborn..classic example of good intentions led astray.

Anders obviously also has good intentions as he does not want Merrill to turn abomination. His stigma comes from his belief of her ignorance and blood magic. One wonders why he thinks blood magic is so bad? Is it because of it being immoral? Or is it because it provides templars the ammunition to oppress mages more?
Anders is too idealistic to be in a dark fantasy world Bioware created. This causes conflict that makes him and the world interesting...it also adds much more depth in to the character and the world itself.

The definition of spirits differs between Dalish culture and Andraste culture, both definition is applicable to their people. But looking at the spirtis' names, we can see that all of then are narrow minded and dangerous. Justice is a virtue but how can one define justice? Would it suffice to say that everyone's definiton of justice is different? Is it justice to enforce your definition of it on others?

A sidenote, a banter between Isabella and Anders


Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?

Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I know that because I played Witch Hunt.

And who knew in Witch Hunt?  A human mage.  If the knowledge of that piece of Arlathan's history has gotten as far as the shemlen, how on Earth do Dalish Keepers not know?

[The Angry One]

I'll point out again that Merril assumed her clan had already left before she took the next risky step in her plan.
It's likely she was in fact waiting in Kirkwall for years for the clan to move on. She is shocked that Marethari has kept them around.

[AlexXIV]

cglasgow wrote...

Illwillsam wrote...

Her incorrect assumption was that the burdens of her actions were hers and hers alone to take, that her life was her own. The truth of the matter is, in effect, her life is not only hers, it also belongs to others who care for her as well. They will feel the burden of her choices and they will suffer, this is what she is dismissive of till that final battle with the demon.

Well, remember, Merrill that didn't think that anybody in her clan liked her; its not surprising that she didn't anticipate that Merethari would freak out at the thought of her dying.   The only thing she knew the Keeper had for her is disappointment; the Keeper didn't actually show the love until it was too late.  Poor Communication Kills, indeed.

As for the rest of your argument, here we enter upon one of the conundrums of philosophy, as the TF2 Engineer might put it; 'when does a human being have the right to decide, with nobody else having the right to say them nay, what cause they want to risk their own life for?'

In today's society, the answer to that question is 'When they become an adult.'   The age at which, y'know, you can volunteer for the military, or the police, or become a fireman, or do any other hazardous job, and your parents can still weep for you... but they can't legally stop you.

And Merrill is an adult; she has the tattoos, therefore, she is an adult by the standards of the Dalish.  They only get those when they stop being children and come of age.

Well she asks Hawke to kill her if she fails. And at that point she could be in a relationship with Hawke. To be honest when I went with her first time I never had in mind to actually kill her. I just wanted to see what happens. Now I had the option to use an earlier save game. I don't know how far I would have gone if I didn't have that option. Because asking the person who loves you to help you with this and kill you if it doesn't work, is actually really selfish and inconsiderate. It is Hawke who will have to live with the knowledge that he/she killed her.

[Porenferser]

Merrill is just annoying.

She reminds me on Tali and I hate Tali......

[cglasgow]

AlexXIV wrote...

Because asking the person who loves you to help you with this and kill you if it doesn't work, is actually really selfish and inconsiderate.

Damn that Wesley!  Asking Aveline to kill him all like that!  How selfish of him!   (Yes, Wesley didn't go looking for darkspawn.  I know.  Its a rough analogy, not an exact 1-to-1 mapping.)

Sometimes, the person you love is the person you can trust the most to pull the plug on your life-support if you're getting terminal.   Its sad, but dying is sad.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[AlexXIV]

cglasgow wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Because asking the person who loves you to help you with this and kill you if it doesn't work, is actually really selfish and inconsiderate.

Damn that Wesley!  Asking Aveline to kill him all like that!  How selfish of him!   (Yes, Wesley didn't go looking for darkspawn.  I know.  Its a rough analogy, not an exact 1-to-1 mapping.)

Sometimes, the person you love is the person you can trust the most to pull the plug on your life-support if you're getting terminal.   Its sad, but dying is sad.

Well that's not the same. Wesley was basically dead already. Aveline only made it easier for him. If there was any chance to save him you can bet she would have. And for Merrill there was no pressing need to walk into danger. Just curiosity.

[cglasgow]

Porenferser wrote...

She reminds me on Tali and I hate Tali...

"Slooooooooooooowly they turned.  Step by step.  Inch by inch..."

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I know that because I played Witch Hunt.

And who knew in Witch Hunt?  A human mage.  If the knowledge of that piece of Arlathan's history has gotten as far as the shemlen, how on Earth do Dalish Keepers not know?

Dalish have no written history, that's why they have storytellers. I know there are books in the Dalish Camp in DA2 but the entire point of the storytellers in DA:O and the blank book you give the Keeper in Awakening all say they don't have a written history.

The information was hidden in a mountain of books in the Circle. And in Origins the Keeper thought the mirror was Tevinter in origin, so did Duncan.

[The Angry One]

Asking Hawke to kill her would be a painful thing for Hawke, yes.
But Merril must do this because it's what she believes in. Sometimes a person gets into something that they just have to do. This means everything to Merril - her people have been trodden on for centuries. Her clan claims to embrace the past yet runs away from the Eluvian like scared rabbits.
She has to at least try to restore a piece of her people's past, and Hawke would understand that.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Dalish have no written history, that's why they have storytellers. I know there are books in the Dalish Camp in DA2 but the entire point of the storytellers in DA:O and the blank book you give the Keeper in Awakening all say they don't have a written history.

Did you entirely miss the part where Merrill points out that her Keeper training consisted of long stretches of being cooped up alone and reading?  

Maybe they make everybody learn the history of their clan orally to help keep it alive, but they seem not to have ignored the concept of "hard-copy backup".  Which makes sense; if your clan's storyteller falls off his aravel and breaks his neck, and his apprentice isn't already fully trained, then he'd better have left some written notes behind or else you're SOL.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

Asking Hawke to kill her would be a painful thing for Hawke, yes.
But Merril must do this because it's what she believes in. Sometimes a person gets into something that they just have to do. This means everything to Merril - her people have been trodden on for centuries. Her clan claims to embrace the past yet runs away from the Eluvian like scared rabbits.
She has to at least try to restore a piece of her people's past, and Hawke would understand that.

Your Hawke maybe. My Hawke would rather have knocked her out and dragged her home before she gets the chance to let the demon have her. It just happened that the keeper was faster.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Kartikeya]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

How many people have noticed that Merrill is also driven by guilt? She keeps referring to the friend who was lost in the mirror back in the Dalish origin back ORIGINS and she wants to find him and get him back as much as acquire lost Elven knowledge. She even talks about hallucinating and seeing her friend Temlen on the streets of Kirkwall because she still blames herself.  This makes her utterly obsessed, which is why she won't stray from the path or listen to anyone telling her to stop.

Her story is every bit as tragic as Hawke's.

I noticed. Interestingly, I played a Dalish Warden, so rather than saying she thought she saw Tamlen, she said she thought she saw Mahariel (the Warden). Somewhere in there, along with all the hopes of helping her people and the little prides about being proven right despite everything everyone is telling her, is the childish, heartbreaking desire to just see her friends again, or, barring that, to make their deaths/disappearances have some meaning beyond 'bad things happened'.

It sure makes that scene in the Dalish Origin where the Warden puts a hand on Merrill's shoulder and looks sad ten times more tragic.

[cglasgow]

AlexXIV wrote...

Your Hawke maybe. My Hawke would rather have knocked her out and dragged her home before she gets the chance to let the demon have her. It just happened that the keeper was faster.

And then she goes back to the mountain without you.  Maybe she asks Fenris to come along and be her templar and he jumps the gun and kills her too soon because he's paranoid.   Maybe she just hires mercenaries and gets ripped off and never lives to make it to Sundermount. 

Short of chaining her in your basement, how are you going to stop her permanently?  Merrill even points this out to you in the rivalry path; 'With or without you, I am going to do this.  Your only choice is if you want to be there to handle it if things go wrong, or trust the job to somebody else... almost certainly somebody less competent than you'.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:53 .

[Akron1983]

Nope, nothing interesting and appealing about a character willing to give up everything, friends, family, the only life shes known, to save everyone shes ever cared for. The people then proceed to throw that sacrifice back in her face and still she wont give up what she think is right. And when she finally realize that what shes doing is destructive, wich is probably long before Hawke shows up (denial anyone), shes too far gone. So she pushes forward in the delusion that she will make something good come of it. No nothing interesting at all. Move along people. Nothing to see

[Reidbynature]

As far as her personality goes I thought she was good comic relief with her naivety coming off as humorous at times. It was her personal storyline that ruined her for me. I was losing my patience with Fenris and beginning to realise that Anders was going to do something incredibly stupid so I wasn't happy that I had to deal with someone else doing something stupid and having another unfulfilling conclusion to another companion's story.

[Foolsfolly]

The Keeper died because she treated Merrill like a child, even after Merrill had stopped being one.

I actually agree. The Keeper should have let Merrill continue forward and turn into an Abomination. It would break her heart but she has the responsibility to keep the clan safe and she put all of them in great danger out of her love for Merrill.

Merrill made her mistake and is set in her beliefs. The safety of the clan has to come first, they need to keep moving and they need to distance themselves from the threat of the Pride Demon and Merrill.

It's sad.

[AlexXIV]

cglasgow wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Your Hawke maybe. My Hawke would rather have knocked her out and dragged her home before she gets the chance to let the demon have her. It just happened that the keeper was faster.

And then she goes back to the mountain without you.  Maybe she asks Fenris to come along and be her templar.   Maybe she just hires mercenaries and gets ripped off. 

Short of chaining her in your basement, how are you going to stop her permanently?  Merrill even points this out to you in the rivalry path; 'With or without you, I am going to do this.  Your only choice is if you want to be there to handle it if things go wrong, or trust the job to somebody else... almost certainly somebody less competent than you'.

Some things you can't prevent, but it doesn't mean that you need to support them. If by all means she wants someone to chop her head off, let it be Fenris. At least he'd have a moment of joy killing a mage.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Dalish have no written history, that's why they have storytellers. I know there are books in the Dalish Camp in DA2 but the entire point of the storytellers in DA:O and the blank book you give the Keeper in Awakening all say they don't have a written history.

Did you entirely miss the part where Merrill points out that her Keeper training consisted of long stretches of being cooped up alone and reading?  

Maybe they make everybody learn the history of their clan orally to help keep it alive, but they seem not to have ignored the concept of "hard-copy backup".  Which makes sense; if your clan's storyteller falls off his aravel and breaks his neck, and his apprentice isn't already fully trained, then he'd better have left some written notes behind or else you're SOL.

Then it's a retcon. Because it was a plot point in Awakening that they had no written history. That's why the blank book was a big plot gift to V-Elf I forget her name.

[mesmerizedish]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Keeper died because she treated Merrill like a child, even after Merrill had stopped being one.

I actually agree. The Keeper should have let Merrill continue forward and turn into an Abomination. It would break her heart but she has the responsibility to keep the clan safe and she put all of them in great danger out of her love for Merrill.

Merrill made her mistake and is set in her beliefs. The safety of the clan has to come first, they need to keep moving and they need to distance themselves from the threat of the Pride Demon and Merrill.

It's sad.

I don't really think Merrill made any mistakes. If we accept from the getgo that restoring the eluvian was worth the risk (which is debatable, but that's Merrill's belief), then she did everything right.

[cglasgow]

Kartikeya wrote...

[...] is the childish, heartbreaking desire to just see her friends again, or, barring that, to make their deaths/disappearances have some meaning beyond 'bad things happened'.

"Then, when Fred died, I wasn't gonna let that be another random horrible event in another random horrible world! So I decided to use it, to make her death matter."

-- Angel, 'Power Play', season 5, episode 21

It's not just children who think that way, no.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Then it's a retcon. Because it was a plot point in Awakening that they had no written history. That's why the blank book was a big plot gift to V-Elf I forget her name.

Velanna.  And maybe her clan did it differently.   Or maybe her Keeper was just an idiot.

... which, seeing as how she picked Velanna for her apprentice, is a definite possibility.  Seriously.   Now she's stupid.

[Kartikeya]

cglasgow wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

[...] is the childish, heartbreaking desire to just see her friends again, or, barring that, to make their deaths/disappearances have some meaning beyond 'bad things happened'.

"Then, when Fred died, I wasn't gonna let that be another random horrible event in another random horrible world! So I decided to use it, to make her death matter."

-- Angel, 'Power Play', season 5, episode 21

It's not just children who think that way, no.

I wasn't using childish there as something negative. Maybe I should have used 'childlike' instead. Your quote is spot on.

[Foolsfolly]

Akron1983 wrote...

Nope, nothing interesting and appealing about a character willing to give up everything, friends, family, the only life shes known, to save everyone shes ever cared for. The people then proceed to throw that sacrifice back in her face and still she wont give up what she think is right. And when she finally realize that what shes doing is destructive, wich is probably long before Hawke shows up (denial anyone), shes too far gone. So she pushes forward in the delusion that she will make something good come of it. No nothing interesting at all. Move along people. Nothing to see

That's exactly why she's interesting! If she was correct and always right and powerful she'd be boring.

Although, it's extremely likely you're being sarcastic. It's hard to tell in text sometimes.

[JamesX]

Merriel is just a simple teenager who believe they know better than everyone, and that their idea is the only right idea. That she really is more capable than everyone gives her credit for and knows exactly what she is doing.

Everyone that goes against her idea is just too close minded, or simply lacks faith in her, or simply too stupid to comprehend it.

Then when it comes crashing down, she them blames the people for not understanding her and helping her - and that is the reason why bad things happen (as opposed to her idea was dangerous and she didn't actually understand the full implication of her actions).

It happens to Teenagers in our world, and that is the simple explanation I have for her actions.

Modifié par JamesX, 22 mars 2011 - 11:00 .