41 réponses à ce sujet

[Halo Quea]

I don't know, after playing the game I'm starting to feel that the Seeker's interrogation of Varric is utter stupidity. What does she want with the Champion anyway? Hawke may have been at the center of things, but was NEVER a proactive figure that helped shape ANY of the major events that led to Kirkwall's downfall or the war between the Templars and the Mages. .

Hawke may KNOW what's going on in Kirkwall, but he doesn't actually do anything to stop it. Either that or Bioware simply doesn't allow him do anything about it. I honestly no longer feel the need to import anymore saves to DA2, they're both worthless and unnecessary for the experience.

The major problem I have with the narrative is that if what's happening in Kirkwall was always a predetermined backdrop for the events of DA2, then what was Hawke's story about anyway?

[Akron1983]

Problem here is that even though all those who enjoyed the story and all those who defend it theres a lot of people who just didnt connect to it at all. It doesnt matter how many valid points are being made on how good the story "really" is if a large amount of the players just dont like it or get it its flawed. It shows that they failed to get their point across or that the point they wanted to make just isnt interesting enough.

[Taleroth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think attempting to come up with the narrative structure for a game that's not reactionary or directed by other agents is an interesting thought exercise.

Grand Theft Auto and Silent Hill II come to mind.

Grand Theft Auto 1 or the franchise?  Last one I played still had most quests and narrative progress as a consequence of other people telling you what to do.

Silent Hill II is a good one, however.  It does answer my earlier question of how to direct a character.  Establish a relatively simple and relateable goal to follow.  Complex goals might be harder.  But I see your point now.

Though complex goals could perhaps be handled by letting the player seek out options to pursue that goal.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[Curlain]

I really found the lack of personal motivation for many parts of the game to be negative with this game. There was never a strong narrative to pull you through the game or to give Hawke real motivations or reasons for what s/he does. It really doesn't have to be 'saving the world' etc as a number of cRPGs have done stories without the 'save the world' type plot but still provided a good driving plot and/or antagonist (BGII: Shadows of Amn, PS:T and Mask of the Betrayer for example). Throughout Act 1 I could thinks of a number of better alternatives to keeping Bethany safe then having to go down the Deep Roads, and by the end of the Act had so much money I didn't see why we still had to go (other that the game demanded I do it).

Act II was allot better in providing Hawke with real motives to get involved, while Act III had allot of potential (such as getting really involved in Kirkwall politics and helping support a Mage-Templar alliance as a new 'third way') that is all kinda waved aside and you are forced into a rather contrived situation of choosing starkly between either mages or templars (I assume to set up the world situation for DA3 I guess)

Modifié par Curlain, 22 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[Tharion]

The game story does not motivate me, it's slow, it's boring, it's fragmented, it's a solo player MMO with boundless pointless quests.

[LordAsael]

I can understand the OPs complaint. It was more difficult to get into character when the world is influencing you more than you influence the world around you. The narrative became more important than your character. It's an interesting way to present an RPG -- one that I don't see too very often outside of novels and found it refreshing for that reason. Now that the scene has been set for more epic adventures I'd like to see the story more player/character driven that this installment was. I enjoyed what was done with this game and it certainly has me mad for a truly epic series of adventures to save the world from destruction.

[Halo Quea]

Curlain wrote...

I really found the lack of personal motivation for many parts of the game to be negative with this game. There was never a strong narrative to pull you through the game or to give Hawke real motivations or reasons for what s/he does. It really doesn't have to be 'saving the world' etc as a number of cRPGs have done stories without the 'save the world' type plot but still provided a good driving plot and/or antagonist (BGII: Shadows of Amn, PS:T and Mask of the Betrayer for example). Throughout Act 1 I could thinks of a number of better alternatives to keeping Bethany safe then having to go down the Deep Roads, and by the end of the Act had so much money I didn't see why we still had to go (other that the game demanded I do it).

Act II was allot better in providing Hawke with real motives to get involved, while Act III had allot of potential (such as getting really involved in Kirkwall politics and helping support a Mage-Templar alliance as a new 'third way') that is all kinda waved aside and you are forced into a rather contrived situation of choosing starkly between either mages or templars (I assume to set up the world situation for DA2 I guess)

That's my point as well.   If this is what was supposed to happen in Kirkwall regardless of what Hawke does or tries to do, then what was Hawke's story about?  Becoming rich?  Living in Hightown?  Earning the meaningless title of Champion? 

During one companion discussion Aveline presses Hawke pretty seriously about what his role is in Kirkwall.   I kept thinking, "what do you want me to do Aveline?   I'll DO ANYTHING, just someone offer me SOMETHING TO DO!"

Does Meredith or the Templars ever come to recruit me?
Does Aveline ever ask me to join the Guard?
Does the Vicount offer me an office in his court?  As magistrate or maybe even the Senachal's job?
Does Orsino ever ask me to become apart of any Mage underground?
Does the Arishok make an offer for me to join the Qun?

NO.  Hawke just runs around Kirkwall all day and night.  No goal, no purpose other than being an errand boy and  collecting coin.  Hawke can't even turn down some quests or else the predetermined narrative won't allow him/her to progress any further.

So again, what was Hawke's story about?

Modifié par Halo Quea, 22 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[ms_sunlight]

The story reminded me a lot of Vampire: The Masquerate Bloodlines at least in it's broadest sense. In both games you play a person finding themself in a new and unfamiliar world being swept along by forces beyond their knowledge and control, their only choice being how they react and what side they choose when it all hits the fan.

V:TMB is one of my favourite games of all time - I must have played it through 5 or 6 times at least over the years, using different vampire clans and specialising in different skills each time, and getting different endings.

I can definitely see myself giving DA2 another playthrough or two, for similar reasons, although I'll wait for the first proper patch to fix the worst of the scripting issues.

[MadMoskus]

I can't say I'm disappointed with the story (or the game, for that matter), but except for the combat new combat system, DA:O is better in every single way. Story, companions, non-companion characters, locations, armor, weapons, enemies...

[Zan Mura]

Arppis wrote...

He always has a goal. You just need to listen and read the dialogue. It's always explained there.

This.

The Champion does have a goal. A hero doesn't need to be "ooh, I'm going to be a hero and go slay the local dragon!" to be a hero. Many heroes are crafted by necessity and opportunity, such as Hawke. The path is quite simple, at first it's survival, then it's about taking an opportunity in your job to secure the future of your family, or just yourself if that's your thing. Then it becomes saving yourself and your hometown from an attack, and following that it becomes about playing around with politics and being forced to take a stand there.

Hawke isn't a hero who goes out just for the sake of it to prove everyone else he's such a BA. Nor is he the person who gets caught up in bigger than life events that threaten the universe and is compelled to act on it. He's just one person among many others, who wants to make the best of his life and gets tangled up in stuff. And with his exceptional ability, he's able to master those events, and rise above all others.

Do I prefer that to some legendary plot like in Mass Effect, BG2 or Jade Empire, where literally the whole world is at stake? No, not really. But that doesn't mean I don't like it. I do like it, very much in fact. I just wish the scale was bigger, I want my RPG's with more adventure.

[CakesOnAPlane]

Basically he just walks the earth like Kane from the kung-fu movies, getting into adventures.

[AlexXIV]

The game is pretty good up to Act3. In Act3 I don't understand anything anymore. You get tasked by both, Meredith and Orsino and whatever allegiance you have shown the past years doesn't seem to count. Mages attack you even if you are bloodmage and mage supporter. They say the Champion has the duty to keep order so the champion must fight, and then you get the choice to join the rebels. Doesn't make sense. If your duty is to keep order, how can they force you to fight for the mages? Could as well have the choice to walk away. The whole story feels forced and lacks the sense that makes the player understand why. It just feels like what it is, a forced setup for DA3. I am not against being forced to choose between two evils, but it should be a plausible choice. Not just 'You can't have the third option because it just disappeared from the dialogue box, deal with it.'

[Aloradus]

Zan Mura wrote...

Arppis wrote...

He always has a goal. You just need to listen and read the dialogue. It's always explained there.

This.

The
Champion does have a goal. A hero doesn't need to be "ooh, I'm going to
be a hero and go slay the local dragon!" to be a hero. Many heroes are
crafted by necessity and opportunity, such as Hawke. The path is quite
simple, at first it's survival, then it's about taking an opportunity in
your job to secure the future of your family, or just yourself if
that's your thing. T

 I think some people are getting me wrong.  I didn't mean Hero in the sense of slay the dragon rescue the world or star wars- Romeo and Juliet has a tragic hero, in Tommy Boy Chris Farley is the hero.. A story can be as simple as our Hero wants peanut butter for his slice of bread but he doesn't have a drivers license so he must go on a wacky adventure to get pb...

What you pointed out is where I think the game fails. He wants to make coin and provide for his family, who
doesn't want to be rich and take care of mom? That alone doesn't make a very compelling story...  Bioware had to know this, thats why they provided cut-scenes of a lady questioning verric... To add drama, OH what does he discover in the deep roads, what great evil, oh thats where it started...  But it never happens, nothing plays out from all that hoopla.

After Hawke is rich what does s/he care about?  In fact why should s/he care at all, especially after his Mother dies?  There are two sides competing that he really cannot take a part of, and neither side really has any
apparent grand plan they are scheming towards (unless you count kill all mages a plan).. Only Anders does and the Hero cannot even take part in his opus.

The story happens regardless of Hawke in my oppinion, and the events happen very similair regardless of what the player does.  I just started to get bored (and I was very excited for this game to come out), where is my interest in and affection for this character? I found none playing, and why does my character care, what does he want? I found none of that- other than to support Mages because my sister is one.

We get 30 hours of a guy running around because he's bored or he's played as a puppet by various sides, but we never learn the motives of the various sides in my oppinion until they act, and even then I find their motives thin.  This story works great for a two page codex backstory on a character, or the backstory for a game- but it doesnt drive a huge game, again just my oppinion.  Others liked it so, obviously there is something here.

Glad to see I am not the only one who felt this though, for awhile I thought I was haha.

Modifié par Aloradus, 22 mars 2011 - 10:03 .

[Aloradus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You could also blame Star Wars and Lord of the Rings for being popular and Joseph Campbell for the concept of monomyth. The idea that heroes should be farmboys who'd be content to milk cows their entire life if it weren't for the horrible event that tosses them into maelstrom has infected large parts of fantasy.

I disagree, remember the whole intro scene with him staring at the suns malcontent.. Star Wars was also a story about discovery, and taking that leap.

Joseph Campbell was similair and inspired by Jung's studies, they were interested in the similairites of story across many cultures.  You are thinking of Christopher Vogler and how his book was turned into an structure for story.  Many people have tried to turn Campbells research into a money machine, not his intent.

Jung and Campbell did not outline a set formula nor that things couldnt be omitted or changed..  Countless games rip off star wars and lotr, but its due to poor story telling and lack of creativity/concepts.  We are over-run with Orcs, etc in games.  People yern for that epic feel from LOTR, they want to stay in that world but they have no idea how to create their own- so they impersonate.

I think the Video Game industry as a whole suffers from poor creativity.  With developers who really do not understand story.  Bioware to me is a company that is ALWAYS above the norm, and thats why this title dissapointed me. 

Modifié par Aloradus, 22 mars 2011 - 10:26 .

[Freestorm Skinn]

Halo Quea wrote...

I don't know, after playing the game I'm starting to feel that the Seeker's interrogation of Varric is utter stupidity. What does she want with the Champion anyway? Hawke may have been at the center of things, but was NEVER a proactive figure that helped shape ANY of the major events that led to Kirkwall's downfall or the war between the Templars and the Mages. .

Hawke may KNOW what's going on in Kirkwall, but he doesn't actually do anything to stop it. Either that or Bioware simply doesn't allow him do anything about it. I honestly no longer feel the need to import anymore saves to DA2, they're both worthless and unnecessary for the experience.

The major problem I have with the narrative is that if what's happening in Kirkwall was always a predetermined backdrop for the events of DA2, then what was Hawke's story about anyway?

The predetermined outcome of the events in DA2 are often due to Hawke's actions and decisions.  Hawke maybe reactive to situations that come along, but becomes either the catalyst or the last nail in the coffin of the major events in the game.  Flemeth foresaw that.

Cassandra wants to find Hawke because, whether siding with the mages or the Templars, Hawke ends up a figurehead that people will rally behind.  Cassandra starts out thinking Hawke is evil and may have to be stopped.  If Hawke isn't evil, as Cassandra realises at the end, then the Seekers need Hawke as an ally rather than someone they might have to put down.  

[Halo Quea]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

I don't know, after playing the game I'm starting to feel that the Seeker's interrogation of Varric is utter stupidity. What does she want with the Champion anyway? Hawke may have been at the center of things, but was NEVER a proactive figure that helped shape ANY of the major events that led to Kirkwall's downfall or the war between the Templars and the Mages. .

Hawke may KNOW what's going on in Kirkwall, but he doesn't actually do anything to stop it. Either that or Bioware simply doesn't allow him do anything about it. I honestly no longer feel the need to import anymore saves to DA2, they're both worthless and unnecessary for the experience.

The major problem I have with the narrative is that if what's happening in Kirkwall was always a predetermined backdrop for the events of DA2, then what was Hawke's story about anyway?

The predetermined outcome of the events in DA2 are often due to Hawke's actions and decisions.  Hawke maybe reactive to situations that come along, but becomes either the catalyst or the last nail in the coffin of the major events in the game.  Flemeth foresaw that.

Hawke is NOT a catalyst for anything major that happened in Kirkwall, if anything he's swept along with everyone else.   My Hawke took on the Arishok in single combat, killed him and the rest of the Qunari went home.  Suddenly he's given the title of Champion but it doesn't mean anything.   He goes right back to being an errand boy for everybody and earning his Champion armor off the corpses of mages that I saved and sympathized with. 

But forget about the major things that he had no impact on, what IS Hawke's story in Dragon Age 2?

[josiah8188]

Halo Quea wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

I don't know, after playing the game I'm starting to feel that the Seeker's interrogation of Varric is utter stupidity. What does she want with the Champion anyway? Hawke may have been at the center of things, but was NEVER a proactive figure that helped shape ANY of the major events that led to Kirkwall's downfall or the war between the Templars and the Mages. .

Hawke may KNOW what's going on in Kirkwall, but he doesn't actually do anything to stop it. Either that or Bioware simply doesn't allow him do anything about it. I honestly no longer feel the need to import anymore saves to DA2, they're both worthless and unnecessary for the experience.

The major problem I have with the narrative is that if what's happening in Kirkwall was always a predetermined backdrop for the events of DA2, then what was Hawke's story about anyway?

The predetermined outcome of the events in DA2 are often due to Hawke's actions and decisions.  Hawke maybe reactive to situations that come along, but becomes either the catalyst or the last nail in the coffin of the major events in the game.  Flemeth foresaw that.

Hawke is NOT a catalyst for anything major that happened in Kirkwall, if anything he's swept along with everyone else.   My Hawke took on the Arishok in single combat, killed him and the rest of the Qunari went home.  Suddenly he's given the title of Champion but it doesn't mean anything.   He goes right back to being an errand boy for everybody and earning his Champion armor off the corpses of mages that I saved and sympathized with. 

But forget about the major things that he had no impact on, what IS Hawke's story in Dragon Age 2?

I don't understand, what do you want to know?