276 réponses à ce sujet

[wildannie]

ginzaen wrote...

Because some people still enjoy it even with it's flaws? i can spend £100 in a night out drinking so £25 for 35-40hrs play seems like a reasonable deal to me. plus not everyone agrees with your opinion? i enjoyed the story and the new combat.

This is how I view games... I get such good value for money, especially with Bioware.  I've already had 70+ hours of entertainment from DA2 because I'm enjoying it.  I can see it's faults but it's still fun.

[casedawgz]

I'm defending it because I think its a terrific game and, despite its shortcomings, am getting a lot more pleasure out of it than I have from any other game in a long time, DA:O included.

[cephasjames]

Corto81 wrote...

DAO was The Wire. The best TV show ever made, and quite possibly the best single player RPG ever made. Deep and immersive, with repeatability and multiple plot solution, where what you did matterred.

DA2 is Spartacus: Blood and Sand. Shallow, but visually attractive. Bad in almost every single way compared to The Wire but stupidly addictive.

Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd playthrough, as there's nothing else out there. And I do find it mostly fun.

However, regardless of the limited time the devs had, some things are just awful.
Copy/pasted zones, lack of depth, lack of immersivness, most companions are ready for the looney bin in one way or another and show the maturity of 10-year olds, small world, the feel of a "fake" world and a "fake" city, ridiculously stupid endings to certain characters (Orsino).

Why do people defend it? No idea.
I think it's relatively fun.
I just think it's complete rubbish compared to DAO.

DAO was an RPG.
DA2 tries to make my toon into Nathan Drake or Ezio Auditore.
Which it shouldn't even be bothering with.

I hated The Wire....


























...and the point is... we all have our own opinions.

[srieser]

I really like the game and I don't agree with those that say the story/characters are bad. I like the new inventory system and graphics.

Recycled areas are annoying but not the mortal sin some of you are making them out to be.

I'm starting to think those of you who hate DA2 are actually playing Fable 3 because then I'd agree with you.

[macrocarl]

Oliver Sudden wrote...

The people for whom the game was designed like it, maybe even like it a lot. There's a lot of them because EA and Bioware did their research, and some of them even show evidence of becoming defensive if the game gets attacked in any way.

I guess I'm one of the people who the game was 'designed' for. I have to say that listening to the community and making changes for DA2 was an awesome idea and I'm glad Bioware did so.
I don't agree with the negatives at all. Maybe a couple more areas to explore that were more varied but that's about it. The feeling of the game is amazing.  I really dig the game!

[Bryy_Miller]

It's possible for people who like something to recognize it's flaws. That's called being objective.

[upsettingshorts]

cephasjames wrote...

I hated The Wire....

*mentally replaces cephasjames' username with "Dead to upsettingshorts."*

[cephasjames]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

cephasjames wrote...

I hated The Wire....

*mentally replaces cephasjames' username with "Dead to upsettingshorts."*

Modifié par cephasjames, 22 mars 2011 - 07:56 .

[Morroian]

Aireoth wrote...

Thats my question, we all know that this game has the following massive problems:

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.
Recycled Areas. 
C) Average plot : I will quantify this, by plot I mean the wholistic feeling of immersion, freedom to chose (and face consequences), reaction of characters in the world to you (and you to them) as well as your NPC companions stories, the plot was poor/average from bioware. This is better then most other developers, but we hold bioware to a higher standard, otherwise we might as well play Two Worlds.
D) Lack of Replay value : Tied to plot problems.
E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

I am not going to touch on DAO, or how it differed and thus upset many of us. In reality the big problems are as above. What I don't get is peoples insistance that this game be defended, even upheld, as one of the greats from Bioware:blink:. Sure its fun compared to Two Worlds, but its a load of garbage compared to DAO, ME, ME2, KOTOR, BG, BG2. 

As othes have said of those B is the only one that holds up objectively, the rest is opinion. And the strengths of the game more than make up for its flaws. Its a bit like Kotor 2 in that respect. Plus there's the fact that the criticism has been OTT.

[Chromie]

Corto81 wrote...

DAO was The Wire. The best TV show ever made, and quite possibly the best single player RPG ever made. Deep and immersive, with repeatability and multiple plot solution, where what you did matterred.

Your wrong. The Sopranos is the best show ever. After it's Breaking Bad and so far Boardwalk Empire. The Wire doesn't come close.

And seriously? Baldur's Gate 2 has the best story line ever in a game. Origins is save the world omg very original. To say it's the best is stupid. BG II is so amazing. Origins was supposed to be the spiritual successor? It's too damn easy of a game and doesn't require thinking and not balanced at all.

At least in DA2 Nightmare is harder compared to Origins and more fun also it doesn't like a turd.

[hakwea]

A) Isn't really an issue. Who really cares where the enemies come from as long as they are there for you to smite. While it would be nice to have more come from chokepoints so I could plant my warrior to hold them down while my mage uses walking bomb and some force mage abilities. Its still just a game and stuff needs to come from somewhere. If you are going to berate the game for this you might as well ask how to rogues go into the shadows and appear behind someone? Why can only rogues disarm spot and disarm traps? Why can't we chain chug potions, I can chain chug beer in real life. etc.

This one is legitimate. But could have easily been solved by create a wider variety. I have no problem with staying within the same few area's but when all the side quests and main quests are the same exact maps but with sections blocked off it does get old. Honestly it wouldn't have been that bad if they just created different area's for all the wounded coast quests instead of always recycling that area.

C) The plot was fine. The story is actually a very good one. You seem to be confusing plot with "choose your own adventure stuff". The two are entirely separate things. You can influence the journey of the plot but it is still a story that is being told to you, not written by you. It has to still follow a course and it does that pretty well. They however could have made the world change more based on choices instead of the few things that did happen, but that has nothing to do with the plot.

D) This one doesn't have anything to do with bioware really and is a personal issue. If you pick certain choices it certainly is a new experience. For instance siding with mages one play through and siding with Templar the next can entirely change some of the acts and subplots and minor story elements. I never found DA:O to be re-playable because it was pretty much always the same thing beyond the origin stories. DA2 is the same really.

E)If anyhing can be said about that game it isn't a lack of polish. Finishing moves didn't really add anything and left out mages anyways. I always dreaded them in origins because my camera would lock on the target and get slow motion while the combat continued. It got annoying after the first few. There is also as much if not more people in cities then in origins so there isn't a lack at all. You don't need much more then what is there now because it would start to get to crowded. You have guards, commoners, people going about their business along with all the merchants. Its not ment to be a sub way train but a city. And not a city like new york, not every city is jam packed.

Its a pretty decent game. Yes it has issues and problems but if you call the game anything but good then you are just letting those shortcomings cloud your sight. Could it be a lot better? Sure. Every game could. Even DA:O could have been a lot better.

[Sidac]

it all comes down to opinion. thats why some defend it, some dont,

[Maconbar]

Aireoth wrote...

I understand you enjoy the plot, as I said, I didn't find it bad, just poor compaired to other bioware games. To clairfy, picking up and item and bam, a quest to deliver it. Also having no actual effect on the plot or ending based on my choices. That also leads to only one play thru.

C) You felt that your choices, actions and friendships shapped the game? and thus D you could replay it to experience a different game? I am not trying to hash out the 'big evil' vs 'rags to riches', but the actual effect you had on the world itself through choice and action (thus making it yours). Perhaps I said it wrong in my post.

E) Are you (and others) saying that the city didn't feel empty? That the exploding bodies didn't seem a bit.. .out of place at times?

I am trying to keep opinions out of this, but of course they do factor in, as 'I have no issues with A and B' thats an opinion, it doesn't change the fact that it breaks the realism of the game, you just chose to ignore it. What I'm saying is, why defend it? Do you want your games to be well, better? Can you really say that fixing A & B (which are my biggest problems) would break the game?

C) My actions resulted in the death of Bethany, my sister. I thought that was pretty significant. I chose to let that event drive my actions moving forward in my first playthough. I don't mind that my Hawke isn't some mythic hero that can bend fate to my will. Having said that the Warden's choices do have a larger "macro" effect.
 
E) I agree but I haven't defended these elements.

I haven't seen many people defend the recycling of areas. At best people are saying that it isn't that important to them, in other words it doesn't ruin their experience with the game.

[Oliver Sudden]

macrocarl wrote...

I guess I'm one of the people who the game was 'designed' for. I have to say that listening to the community and making changes for DA2 was an awesome idea and I'm glad Bioware did so.
I don't agree with the negatives at all. Maybe a couple more areas to explore that were more varied but that's about it. The feeling of the game is amazing.  I really dig the game!

I'm glad you dig it! I just wish those who do and those who don't would stop calling each other names all the time and exagerrating everything all the time.

[CloudOfShadows]

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.

I like it. Works wonderfully with the new combat system that I truly do enjoy.

Recycled Areas.

I think Biowares fault was to make non-generic maps and then reuse them. Sure, it's only Kirkwall, but honestly, DA:O has reused maps a lot, they were just a lot more generic, and didn't quite stick in your mind as much.

So, I actually enjoy the maps for what they are - pretty, and good looking locations. There's enough variety in them that I'm not bothered by it at all. Only thing that I don't like is the lack of adjusted maps - and the.. well... closed doors. That could have used a bit more work, imho.

C) Average plot

I'm seriously impressed by the plot. It's far more interesting to me than the same old "Save the World" plot, and I do like the characters - well, maybe with the exception of Fenris. I truly enjoy how some questions are answered the deeper you venture into the plot, and some things that appear very, very odd in the beginning - like where Isabellas 'duel' takes place make a lot of sense - once you learnt enough.

Sure, it's not force-fed to you, like the Darkspawn disease in Origins, but that's what I like. Hawke always seems to have the option of "I just don't care."

D) Lack of Replay value

That's quite an odd one. I honestly enjoy it immensely - Hawke has way more variety in responses than the Warden. It's subtle at first, but the conversation choices you make, really do make a second replay great fun - for me.

E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

No complaints about the character models from me, especially since darkspawn aren't important in this game at all. The underpopulated thing is indeed a bit odd - Kirkwall could have profitted from more characters that talk to you, but it's a corner that I prefer rather quiet than with Oblivion-style banter. Eurgh.

And regarding the finishers, well... yeah, I kind of miss those. But seriously, the amount of blood in Origins was already over the top, I thought that DA2 really made all the bloody mess far more believable. In Origins they just seemed to spill blood everywhere.

[Razanus]

vdeity wrote...

 I'd happily buy more DLC and even expansions for DA2... just as long as they don't take place in The Wounded Coast or Sundermount.

I'll burn my disc if they dare doing that -.-

[Skilled Seeker]

I defend the game because the hate it gets is totally OTT and the flaws are very minor and cannot compare to everything the game gets right. I defend it because I want to show Bioware there are people that still appreciate what they do and we don't them to stagnate.

[Cybermortis]

The real reason for much of the hate is because of the impression that Bioware lied about what to expect. This isn't helped when Bioware employees are caught giving the game rave reviews on websites not once but twice, and with some people having been locked out of their own game for expressing their dislike of DA2.

Basically they have managed to give themselves a bad reputation in the eyes of many people, who are feeling betrayed because they didn't expect any of this from Bioware.

Being objective I can see that many of the 'problems' (bugs aside) are a matter of taste more than anything else. Some people, for example, have no problem with being unable to give companions armour. Others hate this with a passion and them some.

Speaking for myself, the game is seriously lacking. Something I just realised after booting the game up for the first time in 4 days purely so I could check to see if the saves I had from DAO had been copied to the new PC correctly. I got halfway through the Lothering escape and suddenly realised I had no desire to play any further.

[Phwrobel]

Aireoth wrote...

Thats my question, we all know that this game has the following massive problems:

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.

Care to explain the recycled enemies comment? Most of the enemies in Origins were essentially the same as well. As for popping out of thin air, at certain times it made the combat feel more chaotic and put more pressure on the player and created a sense of urgency. Most of the hard fights in Origins were all essentially ambushes that once you got through the original surprise could easily be metagamed and prepared for.

If you are referring to immersion in that enemies appearing out of thin air is not realistic, the only examples I can truly think of were parts where enemies would arrive from passages or streets you had already cleared. Most of the gang fights had the reinforcements come from rooftops where you wouldn't have spotted them or come from a side alley so it's still plausible.

Aireoth wrote...
Recycled Areas.

I don't think I've read so far anyone defend the contrary. Some of the flack could have been avoided had they not displayed the maps of the area with the cut off sections.

Aireoth wrote...
C) Average plot : I will quantify this, by plot I mean the wholistic feeling of immersion, freedom to chose (and face consequences), reaction of characters in the world to you (and you to them) as well as your NPC companions stories, the plot was poor/average from bioware. This is better then most other developers, but we hold bioware to a higher standard, otherwise we might as well play Two Worlds.

This is really subjective and up to personal taste. I found Origins and ME 1 to be fairly generic for the genre. I like that Bioware tried somethign different and told a different story which was refreshing. Then again, I've been playing rpgs back on the NES and 2.86 computer.

Aireoth wrote...
D) Lack of Replay value : Tied to plot problems.

Like Yahtzee said in his own review of DA: Origins: You have 6 choices to play through the game, i.e. you play the six starting areas/origins and then play the main campaign once or twice. I'm on my 2nd play through right now and finding plenty of differences so far and will probably go through a third one once I'm done.

Aireoth wrote...
E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

The finishers took away from Origins and keeping us from being able to control the character for a few seconds for a marginally cool effect while your healer is being pummeled is not what I'd call a lack of polish. The exploding corpses are just as appealing to me. Which is to say way overused and added little to the game. To Origins' credit, they didn't occur as freqentuly so they made them feel somewhat more special when they did occur. The rest is fairly accurate.

[Robobot]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Because you touch yourself at night.

Your stupidity knows no bounds.

[Grissium]

You know considering on those same sites I'm sure more than one reviewer has made up an account exclusively to bash a game they either didn't play, or to vote twice I don't really think it matters. It happens. Hell I know a few people who own businesses and half of the reviews on Yelp are friends and family.

[Ghostwize]

Aireoth wrote...

Thats my question, we all know that this game has the following massive problems:

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.
Recycled Areas. 
C) Average plot : I will quantify this, by plot I mean the wholistic feeling of immersion, freedom to chose (and face consequences), reaction of characters in the world to you (and you to them) as well as your NPC companions stories, the plot was poor/average from bioware. This is better then most other developers, but we hold bioware to a higher standard, otherwise we might as well play Two Worlds.
D) Lack of Replay value : Tied to plot problems.
E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

I am not going to touch on DAO, or how it differed and thus upset many of us. In reality the big problems are as above. What I don't get is peoples insistance that this game be defended, even upheld, as one of the greats from Bioware:blink:. Sure its fun compared to Two Worlds, but its a load of garbage compared to DAO, ME, ME2, KOTOR, BG, BG2. 

I for one will not, and cannot defend or excuse this game. I know the Short Dev Cycle is to blame, but its biowares fault for trying to reinvent the wheel within that short cycle, rather then reusing resources from DAO. My only option is to try and hold Bioware accountable, and hope they listen to a long time fan (I visited their HQ in Edmonton when they first opened). If I don't, I can't expect them to be any better then every other cookie cutter developer.

:EDIT: pulled from response below because it helps clarify

I understand you enjoy the plot, as I said, I didn't find it bad, just poor compaired to other bioware games. To clairfy, picking up and item and bam, a quest to deliver it. Also having no actual effect on the plot or ending based on my choices. That also leads to only one play thru.

C) You felt that your choices, actions and friendships shapped the game? and thus D you could replay it to experience a different game? I am not trying to hash out the 'big evil' vs 'rags to riches', but the actual effect you had on the world itself through choice and action (thus making it yours). Perhaps I said it wrong in my post.

E) Are you (and others) saying that the city didn't feel empty? That the exploding bodies didn't seem a bit.. .out of place at times?

I am trying to keep opinions out of this, but of course they do factor in, as 'I have no issues with A and B' thats an opinion, it doesn't change the fact that it breaks the realism of the game, you just chose to ignore it. What I'm saying is, why defend it? Do you want your games to be well, better? Can you really say that fixing A & B (which are my biggest problems) would break the game?

Why do people complain about all the glaring issues? Why can't people defend it's merits as a great game? Which btw imo is a great piece of work and better than 90% of the drivel developers throw out to the public nowadays. The game was in development before Origins was released. Laidlaw himself says he regrets using some of the shortcuts but overall the game is a truly impressive title compared to most AAA games these days.

Modifié par Ghostwize, 22 mars 2011 - 08:35 .

[Sidac]

Really?? People are trying to pick apart other people's opinions and prove them wrong? Wow...this is sad. One person's opinion is as useless as the next person's.