276 réponses à ce sujet

[Silver Direwolf]

Because they liked the game.

The game has a good few aspects I dislike and a tide of annoying bugs, but the good vastly out weighed it in my opinion. The reason I would defend it, unless it's someone making a valid point on it's actual problems, is that I enjoyed the game alot and the forum seems to be full of people hating on the game for stupid reasons. I don't have a problem with people disliking the game, I just don't like how it's often portrayed as "THE WORST GAEM EVAR MADE".

People even going so far as to make angry, rude threads demanding an official apology from Bioware. Again, I don't mind people disliking the game, as they're entitled to their opinion. But they can put forth their arguements, hopefully valid, in a polite manor.

DA2 has the elements I really enjoyed in DA:O done right, such as the interesting companions and the very funny party banter. They improved aspects, like having a speaking lead character, sped up combat, etc. While I prefer picking the actual sentence to say over the current dialogue wheel and I'm a bit iffy on the waves of enemies.

Sure, the game has its flaw, but it's still a very good game in my opinion.

Was DA:O plot really that much better? In the basic sense it was still pretty linear (you gather an army and fight the Archdemon). They even got rid of the "Redcliffe" options in quests, in that there's an option for everything to be perfect and everyones happy. That was something people complained about, and now there's people complaining about the opposite in DA2. Basically, I just don't see how your choices in DA:O had a much more significant consequence than the choices in DA2.

[Brockololly]

Corto81 wrote...

DAO was The Wire. The best TV show ever made, and quite possibly the best single player RPG ever made. Deep and immersive, with repeatability and multiple plot solution, where what you did matterred.

I love DAO. I'd agree with most of what you said there about DAO in comparison to DA2.

But come on now, comparing any game to The Wire?

[AllThatJazz]

Part of the reason I defend DA2 and Bio (aside from the fact that I actually enjoyed the game more than I did Origins) is because I don't want all this RAAAAAAGE to set them back. The very last thing I want from DA3 is a return to the old formula of 'Gather Allies. Kill Monster', and I'm worried they might do this as a response to being slapped back so hard for attempting something different. I want them to know that I appreciate them deviating from the most beaten path a bit, even if some of what they tried didn't pan out.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 22 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[keekee53]

hakwea wrote...

A) Isn't really an issue. Who really cares where the enemies come from as long as they are there for you to smite. While it would be nice to have more come from chokepoints so I could plant my warrior to hold them down while my mage uses walking bomb and some force mage abilities. Its still just a game and stuff needs to come from somewhere. If you are going to berate the game for this you might as well ask how to rogues go into the shadows and appear behind someone? Why can only rogues disarm spot and disarm traps? Why can't we chain chug potions, I can chain chug beer in real life. etc.

This one is legitimate. But could have easily been solved by create a wider variety. I have no problem with staying within the same few area's but when all the side quests and main quests are the same exact maps but with sections blocked off it does get old. Honestly it wouldn't have been that bad if they just created different area's for all the wounded coast quests instead of always recycling that area.

C) The plot was fine. The story is actually a very good one. You seem to be confusing plot with "choose your own adventure stuff". The two are entirely separate things. You can influence the journey of the plot but it is still a story that is being told to you, not written by you. It has to still follow a course and it does that pretty well. They however could have made the world change more based on choices instead of the few things that did happen, but that has nothing to do with the plot.

D) This one doesn't have anything to do with bioware really and is a personal issue. If you pick certain choices it certainly is a new experience. For instance siding with mages one play through and siding with Templar the next can entirely change some of the acts and subplots and minor story elements. I never found DA:O to be re-playable because it was pretty much always the same thing beyond the origin stories. DA2 is the same really.

E)If anyhing can be said about that game it isn't a lack of polish. Finishing moves didn't really add anything and left out mages anyways. I always dreaded them in origins because my camera would lock on the target and get slow motion while the combat continued. It got annoying after the first few. There is also as much if not more people in cities then in origins so there isn't a lack at all. You don't need much more then what is there now because it would start to get to crowded. You have guards, commoners, people going about their business along with all the merchants. Its not ment to be a sub way train but a city. And not a city like new york, not every city is jam packed.

Its a pretty decent game. Yes it has issues and problems but if you call the game anything but good then you are just letting those shortcomings cloud your sight. Could it be a lot better? Sure. Every game could. Even DA:O could have been a lot better.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

I believe people were setting their own expectations of what DA2 should have been and when Bioware did not meet it there seemed to be an uproar of negativity.  If everyone was listening during all of the marketing, people would have understood this game was going to be nothing like origins.  Yes the maps were recycled but I did not have high expectations considering Bioware said early on most of the game would take place in Kirkwall. I hated the feeling I was walking on a path.  Origin maps were just as small but it gave the illusion of a open world.

In order to grow as a company, you need to take risks and be willing to change.  I think this was a risky game, but it worked in my opinion.  Do not get caught up with the money aspect of my statement.  In order to make new and innovative games, you need to take risks.  If you keep doing the same thing over and over your product will become stale and predictable.

[Captain_Obvious]

I defend it because I like the game. I liked Origins well enough, but I'm enjoying DA2 more. There are going to be flaws I don't like in every game, but it's not my mission to throw vitriolic insults and vituperative language towards Bioware because they didn't make the game exactly the way I wanted. I have been on the Bioware forums for quite a while, and this is the worst I have ever seen the mudslinging. IT'S A GAME. If you don't like it, fine, but it's not the end of the world, I assure you. I'm not going to defend the flaws, but I am going to defend the game. I enjoy it.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The last thing that BW needs is defending or attacking. They are better off with people's true opinion. But no matter what you write you will be in the wrong camp anyway. If you defend BW you'll get the same amount of crap thrown at you as when you write about something you don't like in DA2. These forums are getting worse by the day.

[Bathead]

Cybermortis wrote...

The real reason for much of the hate is because of the impression that Bioware lied about what to expect. This isn't helped when Bioware employees are caught giving the game rave reviews on websites not once but twice, and with some people having been locked out of their own game for expressing their dislike of DA2.

Basically they have managed to give themselves a bad reputation in the eyes of many people, who are feeling betrayed because they didn't expect any of this from Bioware.

Being objective I can see that many of the 'problems' (bugs aside) are a matter of taste more than anything else. Some people, for example, have no problem with being unable to give companions armour. Others hate this with a passion and them some.

Speaking for myself, the game is seriously lacking. Something I just realised after booting the game up for the first time in 4 days purely so I could check to see if the saves I had from DAO had been copied to the new PC correctly. I got halfway through the Lothering escape and suddenly realised I had no desire to play any further.

About the part of your post I bolded, you need to get your facts straight. There wer two people banned from access, and they were banned  for violating forum rules, not for expressing a negative opinion about the game. AAMOF, the second one that happened to, Tez19, was banned for violating the rules while DEFENDING BIOWARE AND ATTACKING CRITICS OF DA2. 

Modifié par Bathead, 22 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[Landline]

Because I actually enjoyed the game.

Sure it's got shortcomings, but nothing that I couldn't overlook.

[Chaos_1001]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The last thing that BW needs is defending or attacking. They are better off with people's true opinion. But no matter what you write you will be in the wrong camp anyway. If you defend BW you'll get the same amount of crap thrown at you as when you write about something you don't like in DA2. These forums are getting worse by the day.

Absolutly agree ^

[Morroian]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Part of the reason I defend DA2 and Bio (aside from the fact that I actually enjoyed the game more than I did Origins) is because I don't want all this RAAAAAAGE to set them back. The very last thing I want from DA3 is a return to the old formula of 'Gather Allies. Kill Monster', and I'm worried they might do this as a response to being slapped back so hard for attempting something different. I want them to know that I appreciate them deviating from the most beaten path a bit, even if some of what they tried didn't pan out.

This

[Luvinn]

Just a stab at it, but maybe peoples opinion differ from one another?

(Insert Dude Lebowski pic about opinions here)

[KealaFerret]

xoxiin wrote...
Hopefully DA2 will be BioWare's 'Vista':

- When released it was quite flawed.
- After a couple service packs (patches) it actually wasn't that bad.
- They listened to customer complaints and the next release was far better.

Hah hah I love that analogy (I worked on both those releases, and that's quite spot on).

To each their own, I say. I'm loving the game A LOT but I do still see it's flaws as well. From where I stand, people are just as entitled to like it as others are to dislike it. It's kind of a thing I have; by believing your own opinion is right to you, you have to accept that others' opinions are right to them. If I don't respect other people and their opinions, I can't really expect anyone to respect me or my opinions. :: shrug :: Everyone has just as much a right to their opinion as anyone else.

Why are people defending the game? For the same reason people slam the game. Because they're expressing their opinion. Both sides are doing the *exact same thing* by expressing their opinions, and maybe that's why I don't get why people get on other people about their opinions. Am I just a total weirdo in my world view? That's hypothetical I guess as this is about the point where everyone who knows me points and laughs and says, "hah hah weirdo."

And yeah, ditto on what AllThatJazz had to say about it.

Modifié par KealaFerret, 22 mars 2011 - 09:29 .

[TyDrag]

OK, I rarely if ever post on forums, but this game has been ripped by so many people that I have to say something.  Why is the games flaws such a big gripe?  I have encountered a couple of them but nothing to make me fling my controller or curse the game.

The story seems to be a big issue but honestly I see the game as a prequel to something really big coming.  The story line, or rather three different lines are rather thought provoking.  Granted the story really doesnt finish, but I am sure that there will be some dlc or continuation of the plot in the next game. The characters and thier lines had me laughing quiet a few times, the story itself had a few shockers I wasnt ready for, and the fact the game was "gay friendly" was refreshing all by itself.  The mechanics of the game was smooth and for the first time I actually enjoy playing a mage, where I generally end up a warrior because my poor mage dies a lot, but not this time.  I ended up playing the game for several hours when I usually dedicate playing a game a couple of hours a day, but just like Mass Effect 1 and 2, Jade Empire, and Kotor, it sucked me in with its big bitty teeth and didnt let go until I couldnt see the screen anymore. 

As a rule I only by one copy of a game even though I have all the systems, but like Mass Effect, I bought Dragon Age II and Orgins for all my systems, to me, its that good.  I repeat, TO ME, its that good.

We all have opinions, some are valid and some are retarded, but honestly nit picking a game to the point of being petty, come on folks, really?

I have my favorites as do you, but I certainly do not bestow my dislike for a game in such a way that agrivates others.  there are many great games out there that I dislike, but Dragon Age II isnt one of them.  The dialog is funny, the outcome is a surprise, and there are so many hidden elements that I am on my third play through to make sure I see them all.  So flamers please, have a care, huh.  You didnt design this game, you didnt put the hours into to make it, nor did you do anything other than simply pick it apart.  Some great games out there are being destroyed just because u think its garbage.  Not right in the least.  If you dont like the game, then say you dont like it and be done with it, sheesh.

End of Rant

[miltos33]

I still think that Origins is the superior game but I have to admit that the more I play this sequel the more I like it. If this game wasn't rushed which becomes obvious from the carelessly designed environments and recycled locations it would have received a much better reception despite some of the changes.

[BlackIce541]

You know, it's ''short comings'' are just some peoples opinions.

I've played origins and in my opinion DA2 is way better.

Why wouldn't I defend something I like?

[Aireoth]

It amuses me that people focus on the plot problem, perhaps I should have left it out. No one has actually effectively countered the fact that its locations are recycled to death (and encounters), other then to say 'it doesn't bother me'. Fair enough, but its still very factual and a flaw (no two caves look exactally alike in the world), not an opinion.

Not liking the changes to the Dark Spawn, or Flemith, thats an opinion. Even not liking the fact that you have less say in the story then Shepard, or Soap (CoD), is an opinion. 

[Cutlass Jack]

Aireoth wrote...

It amuses me that people focus on the plot problem, perhaps I should have left it out. No one has actually effectively countered the fact that its locations are recycled to death (and encounters), other then to say 'it doesn't bother me'. Fair enough, but its still very factual and a flaw (no two caves look exactally alike in the world), not an opinion.

Pfft. It might be considered a flaw, but not everyone considers it a game breaking one. It didn't bother me much at all given how long we actually spend on a given map duiring a single quest.

What is the opinion part is how big an issue it is to you. Personally If given a choice between more content and unique maps, I'd chose the former. In my opinion, they made the right call. In your opinion they did not.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Aireoth wrote...

Thats my question, we all know that this game has the following massive problems:

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.

Most enemies I've seen from around corners, over hills, or drop from building (qunari, darkspawn, city thugs), come up from the ground (rage demons and skeletons), and/or are summoned (desire demons and shades). In fact I've yet to see an enemy popping out of thin air.

Recycled Areas.

I got 3 words for you: GET OVER IT! The fact is that Bioware basically told us this was going to happen when it was announced that the game was going to be set in and around a one city-state. If they told us we're going to be using a lot of recycled sets, that exacalty wouldn't help sales now wold it? If you or anyone else here thinks it would then you're simply an idiot.

C) Average plot : I will quantify this, by plot I mean the wholistic feeling of immersion, freedom to chose (and face consequences), reaction of characters in the world to you (and you to them) as well as your NPC companions stories, the plot was poor/average from bioware. This is better then most other developers, but we hold bioware to a higher standard, otherwise we might as well play Two Worlds.

That is your opinion. Not mine. I think overall the setting, plot, and characters were far better than Dragon Age: Origins. It's a personal epic not a grand save the world epic, it's about a person trying to survive in a brutal world.

D) Lack of Replay value : Tied to plot problems.

Lets see in my recent play through on the PS3 Carver died in the prologue. Bethany died in deep roads because I didn't take Anders. She Anders out of the group in act 2 and  romanced Isabella and sided with the Templars and killed Anders.
My Xbox 360 mage took a different route and sided with the mages romanced Merrill, Carver became a Grey Warden. Let Anders live. etc.  

There very different paths, dialog options, romance options,  and quests. that make me want to play the game again and again like every other Bioware game.

E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

 

What you think is silly I find cool and more visually exciting than the boring combat animations in DA;O .

I agree that only the Hurlocks looked horrible but remember that the story is a a flashback and some of it comes from memory and Hawke's journal and that means either that is how Varric remembers the darkspawn or Hawke and the various LIs can't draw worth a damn. Now if they stay that way in Dragon Age III then I'll be complaining with you.

I found Kirkwall to be a more populous and felt more alive to me than any city in Dragon Age: Origins and DA:O-Awakening.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 22 mars 2011 - 10:42 .

[Cybermortis]

TyDrag wrote...

The story seems to be a big issue but honestly I see the game as a prequel to something really big coming.  The story line, or rather three different lines are rather thought provoking.  Granted the story really doesnt finish, but I am sure that there will be some dlc or continuation of the plot in the next game. 

I went to buy Dragon Age 2, the follow on from Dragon Age Origins. I did not go to buy the prequel for Dragon Age 3. Nor did I buy a game once, only to then have to buy MORE content in the hopes it would complete the game. It feels like I've bought a happy meal, only to discover I have to pay extra for the drink, then more for the fries and oh, the burger I got with the meal only includes the bun.

I don't hate this, and I can understand to some degree why some people would like and enjoy it. But to me this an empty game - a point hammered home to me when I tried to boot it up earlier and realised I simply couldn't be bothered to finish the start as far as Flemeth. 
A full price game that I've had less than two weeks, and I just have no interest in playing it again. It isn't the bugs, it isn't the combat or any one single thing. It is that to me it just lacks any 'soul'.

Modifié par Cybermortis, 22 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[Mr.House]

I prefer DAO over DA2 simply because it was more polished, a better RPG(tho I do like the talent trees in DA2) and was better presented, tho I do prefer the story and characters in DA2. I enjoyed both games alot.

My only major issues with DA2 was Act 1, some of the time jumps, no epilog, the last three years where skipped, the wave combat(would have been much better without the waves) copy pasty places and the elves new look.

Modifié par Mr.House, 22 mars 2011 - 10:28 .

[Cuthlan]

Aireoth wrote...

It amuses me that people focus on the plot problem, perhaps I should have left it out. No one has actually effectively countered the fact that its locations are recycled to death (and encounters), other then to say 'it doesn't bother me'. Fair enough, but its still very factual and a flaw (no two caves look exactally alike in the world), not an opinion.

Not liking the changes to the Dark Spawn, or Flemith, thats an opinion. Even not liking the fact that you have less say in the story then Shepard, or Soap (CoD), is an opinion. 

What else do you need to hear?

Recycled areas and spawning enemies DON'T bother me, I'm used to them because they've been in many of the games I've enjoyed over the years.

And the rest of your comments are subjective... I find the plot to be very interesting and quite good.
 
I'm getting plenty of replay out of DA2, and I'm finding it less of a drag than DA:O got to be in replays.

And I don't think silly finishing moves being left out shows a lack of polish.

Why do YOU insist on questioning why some people are defending a game they enjoyed? You didn't like it. Yay. Your cookie is by the door.

[Timon44]

Aireoth wrote...

It amuses me that people focus on the plot problem, perhaps I should have left it out. No one has actually effectively countered the fact that its locations are recycled to death (and encounters), other then to say 'it doesn't bother me'. Fair enough, but its still very factual and a flaw (no two caves look exactally alike in the world), not an opinion.

Not liking the changes to the Dark Spawn, or Flemith, thats an opinion. Even not liking the fact that you have less say in the story then Shepard, or Soap (CoD), is an opinion. 

To answer your initial question (Why are people defending DA2): Probably because people like you don't allow other opinions. For the record: This is also true of many people who love DA2.
Why don't you just say your opinion and be done with it? Not everyone has to agree with you.

I enjoy DA2 immensely. The fights with the waves of enemies are fun in my opinion. And I don't mind the recycled environments very much. I play a game and if I enjoy it it is a good game to me.
I don't have to hate the game just because others don't like it.

Edit: the guy who posted before me basically said the same thing and did a much better job than me. So I'd like to second his post 

Modifié par Timon44, 22 mars 2011 - 10:35 .

[Silver Direwolf]

Aireoth wrote...

It amuses me that people focus on the plot problem, perhaps I should have left it out. No one has actually effectively countered the fact that its locations are recycled to death (and encounters), other then to say 'it doesn't bother me'. Fair enough, but its still very factual and a flaw (no two caves look exactally alike in the world), not an opinion.

Not liking the changes to the Dark Spawn, or Flemith, thats an opinion. Even not liking the fact that you have less say in the story then Shepard, or Soap (CoD), is an opinion. 

Because, as far as can see from people replying, they acknowledge that the game has it's flaws. It's a great game, in my opinion, despite these flaws. The repeated environments obviously being one of them.

While I don't like that they cut corners to get the game out quicker, repeated caves is probably were to do it. I presume they spent the required time on the important sections, as I see them, such as the interesting companions and an engaging story.

[MingWolf]

I enjoy the game, but its really, really hard to ignore its problems. I mean, I enjoyed some of the stories, as disjointed as they are, and even some of the companion quests gave me a few surprises but some of the problems are so profound, and so counter-intuitive, or counter-rational, that I wonder "how" they can possibly defended. I even tried to defend this game when it first came out, but the longer I played, the harder it was to find any justification or counter-argument to some of the criticisms given by the masses here.

I suppose some of it comes down to tastes. Some of it comes down to opinions. Heh, I remember actually seeing people "wanting" to have DRM in this game, which left me puzzled for more than a few hours. But to each their own then. At the very least, the developers will be pleased that some people at least support their decisions.

Just so long as developers can see both sides of the story, the criticisms and the praise, maybe theres hope yet.

[Fausty Claws]

hakwea wrote...

C) The plot was fine. The story is actually a very good one. You seem to be confusing plot with "choose your own adventure stuff". The two are entirely separate things. You can influence the journey of the plot but it is still a story that is being told to you, not written by you. It has to still follow a course and it does that pretty well. They however could have made the world change more based on choices instead of the few things that did happen, but that has nothing to do with the plot.

D) This one doesn't have anything to do with bioware really and is a personal issue. If you pick certain choices it certainly is a new experience. For instance siding with mages one play through and siding with Templar the next can entirely change some of the acts and subplots and minor story elements. I never found DA:O to be re-playable because it was pretty much always the same thing beyond the origin stories. DA2 is the same really.

Wow.

C) Ok, I'll give some leeway on DA2's plot it was good and had a really nice twist/setup at the end. I do love a really good baiting, and Bioware came through on that one. But.. ah damnit I can't do my 'what-if' ... damn spoilers.

D) Here now I strongly disagree. For example.

Harrowmont and Bhelin? Stagnation and civil war brewing vs. ruthless progress.

The Elfs and Werewolves? Peace or destruction of a faction?

Who sits on the Throne? Logains fate?

Not to mention the DLC choices, and the "big" decisions that almost all tease around the edges of DA2.

Also I get the feeling that DA3 will combine alot of the choices of Hawke and the Warden in a much more profound way.

Modifié par Fausty Claws, 22 mars 2011 - 10:56 .