276 réponses à ce sujet

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Loved origins but I'm missing the part where it became this flawless godly game you all bashed origins and it's counterpart awakening equally hard. Truth be told da2 is great it improved almost everything and for me charater depth and design is key they felt less like programed robots trying too show emotions all the main races god MUCH need upgrades, combat? Say what you like PC onwers might be fun on there but on ps3 and xbox it was slow redundant and just boring. The story was more on a local level witch is good you don't complain batman only protects Gotham do you? I don't like the random bandit waves the freezes or the dungeon redundancy but origins had similar flaws all across the board. All this endless bashing gets you no where I'm personally glad bioware takes most opinions on tha forum with a grain of salt.

[back pain]

Aireoth wrote...

E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

E) Are you (and others) saying that the city didn't feel empty? That the exploding bodies didn't seem a bit.. .out of place at times?

I have no problem with well constructed criticism, even if a disagree with it I think that's its important to have my opinions challenged, otherwise they become dogma.  What I hate is when people who have no idea what their talking about criticize something with poorly put together arguments, the above is an example of this.  The examples Aireoth gives in his lack of polish are all intentional design decisions, not bugs, they are not the result of the game lacking polish.  Good examples of lack of polish would have been the Act 3 Merrill bug or the Isabella/Sebastian friendship bug.  Please if your going to criticize something at least try to know what your talking about. 

[DungeonLord]

I understand why some people defend the game. They have Bioware on a pedestal due to past accomplishments or they're the kind of people who don't sweat the details as long as they're entertained.

Personally I was entertained with the combat at first, but it quickly became a tedious kiting chore. The companion missions/interactions were fun, but it's also the only truly redeemable part of the game, in my opinion.

Skyrim, Dungeon Siege 3, Kingdoms of Amalur, Witcher 2 and more are coming out soon. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if I was vastly more entertained by one or more of those titles. Running through DA2 takes time, but most of it feels like a chore.

Considering the direction Bioware is taking, perhaps they should just make visual novels and keep combat optional. That way people don't have to deal with their crappy encounter design.

[hakwea]

Fausty Claws wrote...
Wow.

C) Ok, I'll give some leeway on DA2's plot it was good and had a really nice twist/setup at the end. I do love a really good baiting, and Bioware came through on that one. But.. ah damnit I can't do my 'what-if' ... damn spoilers.

D) Here now I strongly disagree. For example.

Harrowmont and Bhelin? Stagnation and civil war brewing vs. ruthless progress.

The Elfs and Werewolves? Peace or destruction of a faction?

Who sits on the Throne? Logains fate?

Not to mention the DLC choices, and the "big" decisions that almost all tease around the edges of DA2.

Also I get the feeling that DA3 will combine alot of the choices of Hawke and the Warden in a much more profound way.

But what did those choices change? Nothing really. It didn't matter if you choose elves or werewolves, Harrowmont or Bhelin. In the end it was all the same, which isn't much different then DA2's choices. The only difference is you had more pointless choices to the plot then you do with DA2. Just because you have more doesn't mean they are automatically superior. And comparing DLC choices to default DA2 choices isn't valid, since you can't compare them to DA2 dlc which might offer just as many choices.

But then those DLC choices didn't really do much or change much. Wardens keep? You got a new power but the plot of DA:O was hardly changed. All the choices you describe exist in DA2 as well in sidequests some of which are almost equal to some of the origins DLC. I won't do spoilers so I can't describe what choices are similar to letting Loghain live or die. There are plenty of "big" decisions that happen that changed the plot in the same way those types of choices did in DA:O.

You can play through multiple times and not get the same exact story in DA2. Just like you could in DA:O.

[Coldest]

@OP

I don't get it either. I can see where people are coming from when they say they enjoyed DA2 more than Origins. Heck, I enjoyed DA2. But justifying it's glaring flaws is like licking BioWare's feet, and enjoying it.

When I say glaring flaws, I don't mean the subjective aspects like the story or the combat, because one man's epic tale is another man's snoozer. What I mean are the general shortcomings like RECYCLED MAPS, POOR UI DESIGN, SHALLOW INVENTORY CONTENT (every accessory you pick up is either a belt, a ring, an amulet, or an ornate belt or ornate amulet, etc.), AND THE PROMISES BIOWARE MADE THAT PLAYERS FOUND OUT DIDN'T MAKE THE FINAL CUT ONLY AFTER THEY'VE BOUGHT THE GAME (finishers, auto-attack, detachable camera, Kirkwall exhibiting significant visual changes over time, etc.).

If you love BioWare so much that you think running 50 laps each around the same caverns and warehouses that are supposed to be different locations is pure brilliance, why don't you just give them your money?

[Reinveil]

back pain wrote...

Aireoth wrote...

E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

E) Are you (and others) saying that the city didn't feel empty? That the exploding bodies didn't seem a bit.. .out of place at times?

I have no problem with well constructed criticism, even if a disagree with it I think that's its important to have my opinions challenged, otherwise they become dogma.  What I hate is when people who have no idea what their talking about criticize something with poorly put together arguments, the above is an example of this.  The examples Aireoth gives in his lack of polish are all intentional design decisions, not bugs, they are not the result of the game lacking polish.  Good examples of lack of polish would have been the Act 3 Merrill bug or the Isabella/Sebastian friendship bug.  Please if your going to criticize something at least try to know what your talking about. 

Just out of curiosity, how do you know those issues were "intentional design decisions"?

[Erode_The_Soul]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Aireoth wrote...

Thats my question, we all know that this game has the following massive problems:

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.

Most enemies I've seen from around corners, over hills, or drop from building (qunari, darkspawn, city thugs), come up from the ground (rage demons and skeletons), and/or are summoned (desire demons and shades). In fact I've yet to see an enemy popping out of thin air.

Some enemies do come from rooftops and alleys and such; I thought that was a fantastic way of prolonging a battle -- calling in reinforcements and having them actually seem like they were rushing to the scene from elsewhere. However, in my game, it is far more common for me to see reinforcements actually phase into existance "Star Trek" style, usually right next to where one of my companions are. And when I say phase, I mean that literally -- as in one second it's Varric standing alone in an open area, then the very next second an archer is right on top of him, having materilzed from nowhere other than the very air itself.

For me, these types of reinforcements force me out of my....immersion, for lack of a better word, I guess.

[The Spirit of Dance]

I like it, nowhere near as much as origins though. I'm also not too picky about my games and I've only played 2 Western RPGs so my opinion probably isn't worth much...

[ashwind]

Aireoth wrote...

Thats my question, we all know that this game has the following massive problems:

A) Enemies recycled/poping out of thin air.
Recycled Areas. 
C) Average plot : I will quantify this, by plot I mean the wholistic feeling of immersion, freedom to chose (and face consequences), reaction of characters in the world to you (and you to them) as well as your NPC companions stories, the plot was poor/average from bioware. This is better then most other developers, but we hold bioware to a higher standard, otherwise we might as well play Two Worlds.
D) Lack of Replay value : Tied to plot problems.
E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

C) You felt that your choices, actions and friendships shapped the game? and thus D you could replay it to experience a different game? I am not trying to hash out the 'big evil' vs 'rags to riches', but the actual effect you had on the world itself through choice and action (thus making it yours). Perhaps I said it wrong in my post.

E) Are you (and others) saying that the city didn't feel empty? That the exploding bodies didn't seem a bit.. .out of place at times?

I actually agree with many of the points listed above and I think many do, even the critics who gave the game a good score. I think it all comes down to how strongly does one feel about these negative elements. I have seen a critic who gave DA2 a score of 80/100 and another 60/100 while basically addressing the same issue.

Not all who are "defending" DA2 thinks that DA2 is perfect or is oblivious to its problems. We simply do not feel as strongly about the problems and issues. We also find that this game is fun to play and while it has its problems, it also added many other things that we enjoy and appreciate. We know that it is not great or perfect but we believe that it is far from the abomination many claims it to be.

About choices in DA2. I have a feeling that while the choices made in DA2 might not have any direct consequences in the current DA2 itself, they will mean more in later expensions. So, we make decisions that does not seem to matter and when the expension comes out - it may bite us later. Like permenantly losing a companion in DA2 might have some or great impact later. If my theory is true, some people will be very emotional about this and say "Hey! That is to get more money from us!", some may say "Cool!" and others may say "so....?"

[Nyuneko]

It's the same either side: there is always a vocal minority who can't stand the sound of someone disagreeing with their view, thus hurting their fragile pride, just like those who hates the game cannot bear the sight of those who enjoy the game. And taking into consideration that these forums are dedicated to the fans of... well, Bioware, so logically, you will get a lot of loyal knights readying their blades and shields against anyone who dare to defy Bioware.

This is what a forum is about, there will always be people who support, as there will be people who are against. Enjoyment is personal, you can't objectively say your "fun" is my "fun", or vice versa. So these opposing views should hopefully give a better perspective to the dev in regard to what we expect in the next game.

Personally, the addition of Hawke voice, in exchange for the origin/race, is a bit on the "ehh" side, I think femHawke sounds quite decent, but manHawke sounds emotionless or script-reader at time, much unlike the experience with commander Sheperd, when both gender's experiences were very enjoyable. The dumbing down of equipment stat annoyed me. And the reuse of dungeons and caves at times just feel lazy and rushed. Not to mention the obvious plothole as discussed in the spoilerific thread of "mageHawke being undiscovered by templar who have the skill to spot mages from the crowd.", in short, mageWarden was explained as that he/she was a warden, thus the templar cannot arrest him/her, whereas Hawke was a nobody, yet templar doesn't even bat an eyelash at him/her.

But I can't say I'm not enjoying the game so far, it is still a decent game, just that we wish they would work on it a bit more.

[back pain]

Reinveil wrote...

back pain wrote...

Aireoth wrote...

E) Lack of Polish: ie Lack of Finishers/Silly body explosions, under designed character models (darkspawn), under populated areas (city).

E) Are you (and others) saying that the city didn't feel empty? That the exploding bodies didn't seem a bit.. .out of place at times?

I have no problem with well constructed criticism, even if a disagree with it I think that's its important to have my opinions challenged, otherwise they become dogma.  What I hate is when people who have no idea what their talking about criticize something with poorly put together arguments, the above is an example of this.  The examples Aireoth gives in his lack of polish are all intentional design decisions, not bugs, they are not the result of the game lacking polish.  Good examples of lack of polish would have been the Act 3 Merrill bug or the Isabella/Sebastian friendship bug.  Please if your going to criticize something at least try to know what your talking about. 

Just out of curiosity, how do you know those issues were "intentional design decisions"?

I know they removed finishers because they couldn't get them to mesh well with the faster combat,  The darkspawn design was chosen to make them look more unique and less like generic orcs (they ended up just looking like ass but that's just my opinion).  Exploding people is pretty obvious, you don't animate that stuff by mistake, plus all the combat animations are over the top.  As for the "low" population in Kirkwal, could have been may reasons for that, frame rate issues because of having to many NPCs around at one time too the fact that, that many people walking around is considered allot for what the people from Bioware are used to (they are from Edmonton after all). 

[Elthraim]

DA2 certainly does have its flaws, and the more I've seen of it (almost to Act 3, since I keep creating new characters and starting over) the more seems to be missing (where did all the genlocks go? why do city NPC's mostly look lazily copied and pasted? why do mages' robes look nearly as lame as they did in Origins until the middle of Act 2?).

That said, however, I have been quite pleased with the overall result and feel that those of us railing against Bioware for 'ruining the franchise' or making a horrible game are, generally speaking, people who wouldn't have been entirely happy regardless of what Bioware put in or left out. Some people can't be pleased.

But, yes, I would hope that Bioware listens to the complaints and tries to improve with the next game.

[Ricvenart]

The Good feedback --

1. A superb story that truly grips the player from beginning to end
2. A unique outlook that is outside-the-box when in terms of innovation and delivery of said story
3. Vastly improved combat , honestly keeps the player thinking and alert ( especially the harder modes of play )
4. Visually stunning and very well displayed , the animations and combat are very flowing and the cutscenes feel like a part of the story rather than the story exclusivley.
5. A fully voiced main character which is also fully integrated into the adventure / story so well that I personally actually felt my choices of character / playstyle/ archtype was not just playing the story but was apart of it. Nothing short of amazing on that one.
6. Being able to use your previous adventures in Origins to have a direct "influence" on your adventure was also a truly innovative idea.
7.The take your choices you make within the game's story seriously was a good move . I loved how you had to build up your "trust" within your group ( which did effect who you had in your party against a certain final encounter )
8. The romances were done very well, each character companion had a very distinctly different approach to said encounter with the main character. Just look at Sebastian and Isabella complete polar opposites as far as beliefs , morals and general presentation of their personal train-of-thought process.

the above was copied from a previous thread titled Feedback..

Just wanted to tackle some of this positive feedback, as to why it shouldnt be defended. I don't hate the game, but I do hate delevopers growing trends atm. What was there I enjoyed and yes it does many things rather well.

1. There was an ending? No seriously, I saw a beginning, huge, immersive, detail, with a great building of tempo to the story and writing, there was a middle, with good tempo but beginning to lack, but then it just finishes, not ends.

2. I dont see whats outside the box about it and still on story theres so many options, things that could or should be happening that just seem to be missing, cant say what without spoilers but lets just leaving it at most of the time anything you do results the same way, even true for the finish. if not all three presented choices lead the same way at least 2 of 3 do (if your even give that much of a "choice") Kinda removes choice then.

3. I do like combat in the game mostly, although something related to combat need fixing, issue with AoE buffs not applying of just your range will always be out of range to do give them to other party members, to hard to control and maintain positions in the faster pace of combat to really have that level of tactics. On abilities lock picking and disarm traps should be trainable by your main, giving the choice again (a word that developers keep using and keep re appearing all the time yet they seem to lack understand of at times) back to the player.  Lockpicking less so but disarm traps your controlling your main mage your rogue is way back by the time your warned its triggered or when you switch another character will auto walk on it frequently. Although losing out on quest (companion) and other unique items just cause you dont have a rogue present isnt right, esp when theyre not for one.

4. Agree mostly, except when oh wait didnt we just come here... Varric "Oh no just all caves are a carbon copy in this world and theres invisiable walls everywhere to differenciate" kinda takes you out alot.

5. Im with you on Main characters being Voice acted, I dont see why my sauve character Im role playing shouldnt have a sauve voice to go with it. Although it does cause issues with choice of what you say, more work to cover it all.

6. Again not innovative its far from the first game to carry on consequences of the last. And frankly it seems to matter so little (although forgivable when your now based across the sea sometimes actions take time to travel) but youd still think you would hear more of the blight that just happened, the hero (ala fable III hearing of your grandfather) and many other things (your possibly a decentable of a DAO mage Warden)

7. I like that too, and what happens if someone doesnt like you enough to stand by a unpopular desicion but trying not to spoil one character says the same thing no matter which choice you make, given thier history youd think theyd make mention of why they can fight X. Another doesnt fight against you when you think they would if you do something. Issue with x living with you, they still say the same thing though a large part of the game or when inside old homes, why cant you talk privately in their share home. And generally really direly lacking in companion interaction, not just romance but in the general sense when really at the heart of the story is companions and these people coming together possible causing the events to unfold (the camp would have worked better, or your massive estate your meant to have that appears smaller then most homes, why not smuggle them in your basement)

8. Mostly the same as 7, although really you think in developing a romance youd get more interation, when I pass people on the street I dont magically appear in bed with them. In many ways DA:o did it better, especially with the romantic twist at the end. And why you cannot argue with a partner over a view point, why they should allow themselves the very freedom they fight for otherwise theyve lost already. Along with other conversations that should be allowed to have.

All in all "I see what your trying to do here(bioware)...and my place is with you" but for how long I dont know, Ive turned my back on Fable as much as I enjoyed the story and wanted to see the outcome but the way they handled things even in just simple public relations which should be important to you was beyond awful. And at least you have half a fleshed out game then an entire bare skeleton of one. But when I buy a game I surpisingly expect to get the whole thing not Die hard 1 half of using that to try sell the other half instead of using the whole to sell 2. Exspansions should be just that too (like awakening was) not playing completion.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Because I can look past those things? And most, I don't agree with you on.

[Vicious]

About the only thing DA2 did right or better was the voiced protagonist. It worked and drew you in the game more as you became a living part of the world, partly due to the fact that the voice work was excellent.

DA:O could have benefited from a voiced protagonist many many times. Such as giving the prebattle Denerim speech. Still, they made it work [unless you got Anora, LOL]


That said, DA2 is inferior in every other way. The story had GREAT potential, but was ultimately rushed and will only hurt Bioware in the long run.

Look around Bioware. If it takes years to release the next game, make it so.

[Not...Mordin]

Beards were epic, that is reason enough for me.

[atwatters]

Still haven't been able to completely beat it. Every mission and fight feel exactly the same and all the environments are exactly the same. Usually even when I am burning out on a game that is character driven I will still play through the mediocre combat, but there just isn't enough character interaction to motivate me through or make me care what happens next. I like the lore enough though that I'll get around to beating it eventually, though I still think that people are being too favorable to this game. To me its a mediocre game at best and a disaster for a Bioware product. Just glad I didn't preorder the collectors edition when I had the chance (wanted to get the game via Steam).

[DKJaigen]

DA2 is better then orgins in every way safe for the recyceld area's . feel free to disagree with my statement i dont give damn

[BrutaleBent]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but :

A) I noticed, it's not optimal, but I don't care that much. That there are waves in fights isn't something that bugs me, it's that they don't usually come from predictable or possible paths.
I noticed, it's not optimal, but I don't care that much. It was just as bad in ME1 and that is one of my favorite games ever, I didn't care too much then so I'm not sure why I'd care now.
C) I thought the story in DA2 is far superior to DAO. But then, I find the big bad villain (Darkspawn) the opposite of compelling, and hub locations that have nothing at all to do with each other not terribly interesting except in isolation.
D) This is entirely subjective. I won't be able to give a useful answer as to which game is more replayable until approximately two years from now, when I can tell you literally how many times I decided to fire up DA2 given the same timeframe.
E) Finishers and body explosions seem like a design decision and not having to do with rush. The Darkspawn is a design decision. Underpopulated areas seems like something done for hardware or engine reasons. I don't think it would take additional months of development to add a bunch of noninteractive peasants to the world, they just decided not to.

The reason people like me will defend it is, well, in my case, DA2 does specific things better than its predecessor - things I value more than the stuff it doesn't do so well. I'm also bothered when people describe their opinions as "the reality" or "the truth" or "the fact" and then list a series of subjective evaluations and value judgments.

In short, if I defend anything DA2 did it is because I want DA3 to be a better version of DA2 as opposed to a better version of DAO.

^Very much "this"! Though, B is pretty meh, Deja Vu all the time ain't that great, and the "walk along these thin crinkled pathways (like the wounded coast) get's annoying fast. Side quests aren't that awesome, and many are just an excuse to chop up some bad guys - not all ofcourse, but some of them. Oh, and Bethanys hands syndrome, which have struck many persons it seems!  Anyways, overall, I'm happy for DA 2, sure, it has flaws, and what those flaws are are VERY subjective from person to person, but it's still a good game. Story was different from the usual, which I liked.

Bent

[AkiKishi]

Any number of reasons...

1. Fear - If this game bombs no more Bioware
2. Devotion - I love Bioware, Bioware can do no wrong, even when the evidence says otherwise.
3. I am never wrong - Some people even if sold a lemon are never able to admit it to themselves.
4. Low expectation-Having low expectations means they are easily met.
5. Experience- Nothing exists in isolation, people with different gaming experience will see it differently. For example if you played FFXII you would realise just how similiar DA was , if you were never aware of FFXII, that would never be a factor for you.

[AtreiyaN7]

They're massive to you. Others see the storytelling, etc. as being more important than the number of recycled areas and other issues. I like the story, the characters and most other aspects of the game. You think the plot is average, whereas I think it's actually superior to the standard Big Bad plot. Why do you even have to ask why other people defend it? This is all about subjective opinion (someday, I'll put that in my signature so I don't have to type it).

[BulletArray]

Am I the only one who enjoys Two Worlds more than DA2? I wish I had bought Two Worlds 2 instead of DA2.... :/

[AkiKishi]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

They're massive to you. Others see the storytelling, etc. as being more important than the number of recycled areas and other issues. I like the story, the characters and most other aspects of the game. You think the plot is average, whereas I think it's actually superior to the standard Big Bad plot. Why do you even have to ask why other people defend it? This is all about subjective opinion (someday, I'll put that in my signature so I don't have to type it).

Some things are subjective other not.

Copy paste areas not subjective
Things popping out of thin air with no lore reason, not subjective
You having no impact on how the story ends, not subjective.

Those 3 alone mean anything above an 8 is highly suspect.

iceonica wrote...

Am I the only one who enjoys Two Worlds more than DA2? I wish I had bought Two Worlds 2 instead of DA2.... :/

Probably not, it's still on my to-do list. Funny thing ,the issues I had with Trinity have all but vanished after seeing how much worse they were in DA2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 23 mars 2011 - 09:26 .

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

You having no impact on how the story ends, not subjective.

Whether or not we care, or view that as the point of the choices in the game is what is subjective.

Hence my typical "It's about who the Champion is, not what they do" points.

[upsettingshorts]

Fausty Claws wrote...

Harrowmont and Bhelin? Stagnation and civil war brewing vs. ruthless progress.

The Elfs and Werewolves? Peace or destruction of a faction?

Who sits on the Throne? Logains fate?

The results of which you only ever see in epilogue cards.  Also no-one reacts to even cares about your reasons for picking any of them.  DAO's about the what, no one cares about the why.  DA2's about the why, the what is mostly inevitable.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 mars 2011 - 09:35 .