276 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You having no impact on how the story ends, not subjective.

Whether or not we care, or view that as the point of the choices in the game is what is subjective.

Hence my typical "It's about who the Champion is, not what they do" points.

CRPGS are about choice , it's what makes them different to JRPGs. The sheer hypocrisy of Bioware is staggering after the comments they made about JRPGs, then turn around and copy them.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The results of which you only ever see in epilogue cards.  Also no-one reacts to even cares about your reasons for picking any of them. 

Because the game is over, it's showing you the results of your actions in the game, same as they did in FO. That shows you the player that what your character did in the game had meaning.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 23 mars 2011 - 09:40 .

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

CRPGS are about choice , it's what makes them different to JRPGs. The sheer hypocrisy of Bioware is staggering after the comments they made about JRPGs, then turn around and copy them.

Check over your head, my point's flying by.

I didn't say there wasn't choice.  I said the choices were different in nature.  Some people appreciate that and as a result prefer DA2, some people don't and prefer DAO. 

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because the game is over, it's showing you the results of your actions in the game, same as they did in FO. That shows you the player that what your character did in the game had meaning.

It had meaning to you.  Not to me. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 mars 2011 - 09:43 .

[Firky]

I don't understand why recycled areas are that much of a big deal, tbh. Obviously it's not ideal, but if there's more quests, then who cares. Really. Just use your imagination. I don't see recycled sets as an objective complaint. More as a (somewhat petty) grievance.

We don't know why there were so many recycled stes, anyway. People are blaming "rushed development" and such, but we don't know how they organised their priorities. They're just guesses. There are heaps of other amazing little details in DAII. I just read the codex entry for the Bone Pit and was like, wow.

I would call the camera view a more objective complaint, because it is difficult to fit all of your party into view. That's factual, and I'd argue that it's expected for "party based combat." It's not going to bother some people, sure. It does bother me. In fact, it's really my one and only criticism of the game.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fausty Claws wrote...

Harrowmont and Bhelin? Stagnation and civil war brewing vs. ruthless progress.

The Elfs and Werewolves? Peace or destruction of a faction?

Who sits on the Throne? Logains fate?

The results of which you only ever see in epilogue cards.  Also no-one reacts to even cares about your reasons for picking any of them.  DAO's about the what, no one cares about the why.  DA2's about the why, the what is mostly inevitable.

That's a good point, actually.

I personally loved DA2. I thought it was as good as Origins but like Origins, was flawed, though the flaws were different. I enjoyed it and I don't care how many people rage about it on the internet and rate it 0.0 on metacritic, I've made up my mind. That said, several of the flaws that it *does* have are mentioned in the OP and I won't defend those. But I will defend the story, because on the whole I loved it. It too has flaws, and it's a more difficult story to love because it's closer in tone to a tragedy than a heroic fairytale, but the tragic elements are why I like it. I really hope this backlash doesn't put Bioware off from trying new things story-wise, because if every new game is back to the "ancient evil" formula I will be disappointed. That story has its place, sure, but it doesn't need to be in every fantasy.

[AtreiyaN7]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

They're massive to you. Others see the storytelling, etc. as being more important than the number of recycled areas and other issues. I like the story, the characters and most other aspects of the game. You think the plot is average, whereas I think it's actually superior to the standard Big Bad plot. Why do you even have to ask why other people defend it? This is all about subjective opinion (someday, I'll put that in my signature so I don't have to type it).

Some things are subjective other not.

Copy paste areas not subjective
Things popping out of thin air with no lore reason, not subjective
You having no impact on how the story ends, not subjective.

Those 3 alone mean anything above an 8 is highly suspect.

iceonica wrote...

Am I the only one who enjoys Two Worlds more than DA2? I wish I had bought Two Worlds 2 instead of DA2.... :/

Probably not, it's still on my to-do list. Funny thing ,the issues I had with Trinity have all but vanished after seeing how much worse they were in DA2.

Really? I think the importance one assigns to each of those items  IS totally subjective.

• I found the use of copy & paste excessive, but it did not detract from my enjoyment of the story and characters.
• Enemies popping out of the air? In any game, especially one with very non-real magic and equally non-real dwarves and non-real elves, I really don't care how the enemies spawn. Being able to fling fireballs and incinerate my enemies is not particularly realistic (and please, don't even go there with the "lore reason").
• No impact on how the story ends? The fact that the Archdemon was going to die on the roof of Fort Drakon was equally set in stone as far as the ending of DA:O went. I found great value in seeing the story of my character's role in a pivotal historical event.

[Funker Shepard]

I "defend" the game because I think it's good, the drawbacks (including the ones in the OP) are greatly exaggerated or in fact, simply not true ("average plot" - it's anything but average).

It's not perfect, by any means, but it's still a very good game. And Bioware seem to be aware of the actual problems within the game (the rather crude recycling of the areas), so I hope they won't make that mistake again.

[AkiKishi]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I think the importance one assigns to each of those items  IS totally subjective.

• I found the use of copy & paste excessive, but it did not detract from my enjoyment of the story and characters.
  
• Enemies popping out of the air? In any game, especially one with very non-real magic and equally non-real dwarves and non-real elves, I really don't care how the enemies spawn. Being able to fling fireballs and incinerate my enemies is not particularly realistic (and please, don't even go there with the "lore reason").
  
• No impact on how the story ends? The fact that the Archdemon was going to die on the roof of Fort Drakon was equally set in stone as far as the ending of DA:O went. I found great value in seeing the story of my character's role in a pivotal historical event.

What the importance is yes. But you can't deny that they exist and that they are grounds for a low score.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It had meaning to you.  Not to me. 

[*]Well if you never cared how your actions changed things, then it had no meaning. Goes someway to explaining why you were not bothered by DA2's ending as well.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 23 mars 2011 - 09:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well if you never cared how your actions changed things, then it had no meaning. Goes someway to explaining why you were not bothered by DA2's ending as well.

I already said why I wasn't "bothered" by DA2's ending.   I care that my character felt like a real person, who was trying to do real things, for real reasons, and the game acknowledged that position.  That he was powerless to effect real change didn't bother me in the least.

Because if I can't see the change it's not interesting.  I never saw any change from DAO, so not seeing any from DA2 isn't a big deal to me.

BobSmith101 wrote...

What the importance is yes. But you can't deny that they exist and that they are grounds for a low score.

The ending/story one is, because "it told a story I didn't personally like" doesn't get much more subjective.

I hate the big bad enemy.  Does that mean I'd be within my rights to downgrade DAO for having such a boring, simple, equally unchanging (we always defeat the Archdemon) main story?  Because it did, and I would.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Wolfva2]

I hate liverwurst sandwiches. Can't stand them. I could easily make a list of all the ways that liverwurst sucks. Undoubtedly, though, someone else would defend liverwurst. Why? Is it because that person has no taste? Because he's an arguementive SOB looking for a fight? Or maybe...just maybe...DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT LIKES AND DISLIKES. Hmmmm. Could beeeee....

Ok, so the OP doesn't like the game. Whoop de doo. A bunch of other people don't like the game either. But some people DO. Welcome to real life! Where nothing is universally loved or hated! Where people actually LIKE the things that you don't, and vice versa. Don't worry. Someone liking something you don't isn't an attack against you. They're liking of what you despise isn't calling into question your taste. You don't have to fight them. Just accept the simple fact that everyone is different, that different people like different things, and move on with your life. You happen to have found something you dislike. GOOD! That is important information which you can use to, in the future, avoid buying a game you won't like. But STOP trying to convince the people who DO like the game that they shouldn't simply because YOU don't like it and you think of yourself as a veritable God amongst gamers, desiring only your rightfull and owed worship from we your peons. Cuz you ain't.

[Artoz96]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fausty Claws wrote...

Harrowmont and Bhelin? Stagnation and civil war brewing vs. ruthless progress.

The Elfs and Werewolves? Peace or destruction of a faction?

Who sits on the Throne? Logains fate?

The results of which you only ever see in epilogue cards.  Also no-one reacts to even cares about your reasons for picking any of them.  DAO's about the what, no one cares about the why.  DA2's about the why, the what is mostly inevitable.

Of course it dont change your life but we see real consequences. For example golems in the last battle, if it is not consequences of your choise?

DA2 gives us only illusion of choise, yep, it is better than in Diablo, but Diablo always was slasher with ELEMENTS of rpg.

[upsettingshorts]

Artoz96 wrote...

Of course it dont change your life but we see real consequences. For example golems in the last battle, if it is not consequences of your choise?

You mean like having (spoilers removed) in the last battle in DA2?  About as useful as the golems, but still a consequence.

Artoz96 wrote...

DA2 gives us only illusion of choise

No, DA2 gave me choices I appreciate.  DAO gave you choices you appreciate.  That doesn't mean that if we don't appreciate a choice that it isn't there for others. 

That doesn't mean there aren't "but thou must" real illusions of choice in both games, in DA2 a good example is Shepherding Wolves - you can't tell her you're not interested, and you can't start the Deep Roads expedition without doing it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 mars 2011 - 10:09 .

[AkiKishi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That he was powerless to effect real change didn't bother me in the least.

I hate the big bad enemy.  Does that mean I'd be within my rights to downgrade DAO for having such a boring, simple, equally unchanging (we always defeat the Archdemon) main story?  Because it did, and I would.

"Rise to Power by any means" Remember that ? Yet you admit you have no power. See what is wrong here and why some people would see that as bad?

No it means you should never have bought DA. I've played games with DA2's "personal" story, I've even played games where there is not even a "threat" looming. I've enjoyed those games. I don't enjoy DA2.

I'll just paraphrase what Bioware said about JRPGs.

" You know it's almost funny when you click 2 options and end up with the same outcome" Really Bioware  How many options did you click through to get the same outcome in DA2 I wonder.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 23 mars 2011 - 10:10 .

[Fraevar]

BobSmith101 wrote...

"Rise to Power by any means" Remember that ? Yet you admit you have no power. See what is wrong here and why some people would see that as bad?

.

What's "wrong" there is that BioWare's marketing department is completely incompetent at managing expectations and would rather throw buzzwords like that around that trying to actually present this as the personal character-building story that it is.

Seriously - if I as a forumite could have one wish granted, it would be for the entire BioWare/EA marketing department to be given their marching orders because ever since DAO they have consistently caused more damage than harm to both Dragon Age and Mass Effect by misrepresenting both franchises.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 23 mars 2011 - 10:15 .

[Anarya]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That he was powerless to effect real change didn't bother me in the least.

I hate the big bad enemy.  Does that mean I'd be within my rights to downgrade DAO for having such a boring, simple, equally unchanging (we always defeat the Archdemon) main story?  Because it did, and I would.

"Rise to Power by any means" Remember that ? Yet you admit you have no power. See what is wrong here and why some people would see that as bad?

No it means you should never have bought DA. I've played games with DA2's "personal" story, I've even played games where there is not even a "threat" looming. I've enjoyed those games. I don't enjoy DA2.

I'll just paraphrase what Bioware said about JRPGs.

" You know it's almost funny when you click 2 options and end up with the same outcome" Really Bioware  How many options did you click through to get the same outcome in DA2 I wonder.

That's not what he said, he said you're powerless to effect change within the story of DA2. Your position as Champion is a position of power. Elthina and Dumar had power yet were equally powerless to stop what happens by the end. So no use carting out that marketing slogan, really.

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

No it means you should never have bought DA.

I said I'd downgrade it, not that I'd give it a 25/100, or call it nuclear winter, or demand a refund, or call for people to be fired.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 mars 2011 - 10:22 .

[AkiKishi]

Anarya wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That he was powerless to effect real change didn't bother me in the least.

I hate the big bad enemy.  Does that mean I'd be within my rights to downgrade DAO for having such a boring, simple, equally unchanging (we always defeat the Archdemon) main story?  Because it did, and I would.

"Rise to Power by any means" Remember that ? Yet you admit you have no power. See what is wrong here and why some people would see that as bad?

No it means you should never have bought DA. I've played games with DA2's "personal" story, I've even played games where there is not even a "threat" looming. I've enjoyed those games. I don't enjoy DA2.

I'll just paraphrase what Bioware said about JRPGs.

" You know it's almost funny when you click 2 options and end up with the same outcome" Really Bioware  How many options did you click through to get the same outcome in DA2 I wonder.

That's not what he said, he said you're powerless to effect change within the story of DA2. Your position as Champion is a position of power. Elthina and Dumar had power yet were equally powerless to stop what happens by the end. So no use carting out that marketing slogan, really.

It does not say rise to power in a position that has no actual power. It says "RISE TO POWER" see the difference here?

So while you can defend it, or ignore it. It's Bioware making false promises , and people are suprised DA2 has gotten such a frosty reception.

[Rykoth]

I skipped to the end of the thread to say...

Spartacus Blood and Sand is far from shallow. Shame on you!

[AtreiyaN7]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I think the importance one assigns to each of those items  IS totally subjective.

• I found the use of copy & paste excessive, but it did not detract from my enjoyment of the story and characters.
  
• Enemies popping out of the air? In any game, especially one with very non-real magic and equally non-real dwarves and non-real elves, I really don't care how the enemies spawn. Being able to fling fireballs and incinerate my enemies is not particularly realistic (and please, don't even go there with the "lore reason").
  
• No impact on how the story ends? The fact that the Archdemon was going to die on the roof of Fort Drakon was equally set in stone as far as the ending of DA:O went. I found great value in seeing the story of my character's role in a pivotal historical event.

What the importance is yes. But you can't deny that they exist and that they are grounds for a low score.
.

You know, the question in the thread title was about why some of us defend the game despite its supposed shortcomings. I pointed out that in my case it's because I feel some of the issues were minor and didn't detract from the game. You just acknowledged that the importance of each of these things is entirely subjective up there, so what argument are you even making against my original post now? The fact that you, in your entirely subjective opinion have a problem with the aforementioned items and feel that they warrant a low score is, there's that word again, subjective.

[upsettingshorts]

Rykoth wrote...

I skipped to the end of the thread to say...

Spartacus Blood and Sand is far from shallow. Shame on you!

It's a shallow, muddy puddle compared to HBO's Rome.

[AkiKishi]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...
What's "wrong" there is that BioWare's marketing department is completely incompetent at managing expectations and would rather throw buzzwords like that around that trying to actually present this as the personal character-building story that it is.

Seriously - if I as a forumite could have one wish granted, it would be for the entire BioWare/EA marketing department to be given their marching orders because ever since DAO they have consistently caused more damage than harm to both Dragon Age and Mass Effect by misrepresenting both franchises.

I just pulled this tagline off a random gaming site.

The way you play will write the story of how the world is changed forever.

It made me laugh, but not in a haha way.

[upsettingshorts]

Which would matter if the thread was, "Why are people defending DA2's marketing (in particular its short comings)?" Because I sure wouldn't be.

Bioware couldn't have managed the public expectations for this game worse, in my mind.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[Anarya]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It does not say rise to power in a position that has no actual power. It says "RISE TO POWER" see the difference here?

So while you can defend it, or ignore it. It's Bioware making false promises , and people are suprised DA2 has gotten such a frosty reception.

It equally does not say "Become the all-powerful god of Thedas". It isn't a position that has no actual power, you just can't shape the world to your liking because you are just one player in a drama, not King Sh-t around whom the entire world revolves. It's not a false promise and I for one don't need to be ego-stroked constantly in every game to that extent. But maybe others do, and that's fine.

[gingerbill]

Corto81 wrote...

DAO was The Wire. The best TV show ever made, and quite possibly the best single player RPG ever made. Deep and immersive, with repeatability and multiple plot solution, where what you did matterred.

DA2 is Spartacus: Blood and Sand. Shallow, but visually attractive. Bad in almost every single way compared to The Wire but stupidly addictive.

good  analogy .

I'm enjoying DA2 , just got to act 3 , so far i would say its a very good game . The only thing i hate is the enemy spawning .

Rykoth wrote...

I skipped to the end of the thread to say...

Spartacus Blood and Sand is far from shallow. Shame on you!

, i think compared to the wire it is but theres no shame in that . As theres no shame in DA2 not being as great as DAO.

Modifié par gingerbill, 23 mars 2011 - 10:58 .

[Tripedius]

Happens all the time. On some level it's a mental thing, people can't believe BW can make bad games so they don't and every flaw is minor or not a flaw at all. Critism of the game equals sacrelidge, it's kind of like the templars their way of seeing things is the only truth as allowing deviations would smash the beliefsystem (all mages are bad, so one mage can't be good, cause all mages are bad).
An other thing is that some people like easy more than good. Meaning they like it is an easy and accesable game which matters more than any flaw. Critism might mean that future games will be more complex, which would be bad in their eyes. And ofc there is the 'one button and something awesome will happen' crowd who genuily believe that big explosions are better than a good story, a good setting and good gameplay.