129 réponses à ce sujet

[dewayne31]

i played all accept the dwarf royalty one...but i play most dalish elf or human noble

[JohnstonMR]

cJohnOne wrote...

Yes, please bring back the origins. They help me replay the game. For example I could play a Sword and Shield guy six times and not get as tired of it because of the different origins.

Not to be rude, but how is that possible?  For me, once I played the origin, the game was largely the same after that, except for minor issues.

[JohnstonMR]

Daryl_A wrote...

No thanks. The origins in DA:O were an interesting idea, but they meant little overall. Not only that, but only one or two were genuinely interesting.

I'd rather sacrifice the variable origin story for a tighter, more cohesive overall story.

THIS.

[JohnstonMR]

TJSolo wrote...

Insoluble25x wrote...

I tried to give origins a chance but I lost interest, didn't even get half way through the game. I'm actually still playing DA2 since it's release.

That would be a personal problem.

The origins part of DAO brought out a unique racial experience than just +1dex/-1con most other medievel fantasy games with multiraces have done. I actually that the origins subtitle for the game was a nice mechanic and a good way to "evolve" RPGs.

So yeah I am going to be pro-option here and say having more races and origins would benefit this series more than a single canon character.

And this, too, is a personal preference.  You can use all the arguments you want, but it really comes down to personal choice--I didn't care about the origins so much, you did.  Neither of us can claim to be entirely right.

[Emerald Suzaku]

I wouldn't mind seeing Origins return in DA3, with the caveat that such things make sense in the context of the game.

In the case of DA2, I didn't mind a huge amount not having racial selections, and there only being one starting point for the character. However, I really would have liked a more extended Origin for Hawke than the brief prologue that we got. SHOW me more of the history of the character, don't just tell me about it through the occasional sentence.

Though, DA2 failed pretty spectacularly at the "show, don't tell" mantra on pretty much all counts....

If, on the other hand, the game ends up thrusting us into the shoes of an already-established character in the world, having an Origin might not make as much sense. Origins tend to be better for characters that start as proverbial blank slates and develop as the game goes along.

[Rykoth]

The only way I'd accept Dragon Age 3 being a new "Origins" is the following:

- DA2 expansions expand and finish Hawke's story
- They take extra time for DA3 to record VOs for each race. I don't want to play a mute. If need be, find a voice actor who is talented enough to do three or three or four different accents (so the same guy for elf-dwarf-man) and tones to mask its the same guy.
- If the Origins matter. Nothing jarred me more in my Dalish runthrough of DAO that I could get things done as easily as compared to a Human Noble.

If there's a Human Noble Origin it better have a huge advantage.
If there's a Magi Origin, especially with the outcome of DA2, then it should be very much a harrowing experience.

It should all have long lasting effects.

Otherwise, I'm fine with a defined hero. And would love to see a game that makes people play as a Dalish hero >.>

[TJSolo]

JohnstonMR wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Insoluble25x wrote...

I tried to give origins a chance but I lost interest, didn't even get half way through the game. I'm actually still playing DA2 since it's release.

That would be a personal problem.

The origins part of DAO brought out a unique racial experience than just +1dex/-1con most other medievel fantasy games with multiraces have done. I actually that the origins subtitle for the game was a nice mechanic and a good way to "evolve" RPGs.

So yeah I am going to be pro-option here and say having more races and origins would benefit this series more than a single canon character.

And this, too, is a personal preference.  You can use all the arguments you want, but it really comes down to personal choice--I didn't care about the origins so much, you did.  Neither of us can claim to be entirely right.

Options, good.
That is about as right as I need to be.

[Taura-Tierno]

TJSolo wrote...

Honestly, the origins were a good idea, and were fun to play, but after the start of the game, felt pretty meaningless. They didn't matter as much ad they could've, and I get that having them matter a lot would be really costly, so I don't blame Bioware for that. They were still fun and innovative, but I'd rather take one origin with more consequences and reactions through the game than several that don't matter as much.

The point of races and origins were to flavor the player's experiences with subtle differences not alter the experience greatly. Adding subtly to games requires TLC and for the time spent the subtly is easily dismissed by certain kinds of players.

I don't dismiss the idea of flavoring the game experience in different ways. As I said, I enjoyed the Origins. They were a really nice touch to DA:O. I enjoy being able to choose race and background. 

It is not, however, in any way necessary to make a great RPG. It depends entirely upon what kind of story will be told. Sometimes, lots of customisation like that fits. Sometimes (like in DA2) it doesn't. 

Also, for every extra origin they'd add, they'd have to remove a level of depth from the overall gameplay. That's just unavoidable. They'd have to make more different reactions to races and backgrounds. In some games, that might be very good. In others, like DA2 (imo), it would not have been good. As I said, depends on the game. 

And if the origins for DA2 would've been very subtle, like just what kind of inhabitants the Hawke family were in Kirkwall, I don't really see the point. Better then that they have time for to fill out the rest of the story, if the origins aren't even going to play at least a somewhat important role. 

[Wyndham711]

Yes, definitely bring origin-stories back sooner rather than later. They were a great innovation in the RPG scene, though huge amounts of potential was still left untapped after DA:O. For the next project perhaps lessen the number of origins a tad - perhaps to around 4 - but respectively add additional depth and reactivity to each origin-choice.

And now that the world is familiar to the playerbase, the origins can ebe more specific and complex than just being a random circle mage or a random dalish rogue, etc. Perhaps you could include one origin where you play an older character in their fifties or sixties. Or a young, influential nobleman in a court who is diagnosed with an incurable disease only having a few years left to live.

Modifié par Wyndham711, 23 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[Huwmin race]

this is the only problem other than a few bugs I had in DA2 the start just seemed so Linear the only time I felt properly free was once I got into the city.
The start areas were very boring and had nowhere to explore!

[Tamahome560]

Bring Hawke (and Merrill) back for Dragon Age 3.

[hakwea]

cJohnOne wrote...

Yes, please bring back the origins. They help me replay the game. For example I could play a Sword and Shield guy six times and not get as tired of it because of the different origins.

You must have a completly different version of the game then the Dragon age Origins I played. Because once you got to ostagar it was essentially the same game. The individual origins really didn't add much to the rest of the game and were never really tied to the plot of the story. Hell when you played a noble dwarf you couldn't even assume the thrown despite being an heir.

[TJSolo]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

It is not, however, in any way necessary to make a great RPG. It depends entirely upon what kind of story will be told. Sometimes, lots of customisation like that fits. Sometimes (like in DA2) it doesn't.

Necessary? I have not implied that. The story of DA2 not fitting being able to have Origins is an after the fact issue. Bohdan and Sandal made it to Kirkwall. Why not a PC dwarf? The entire Dalish elves from the Dalish Origin made it to Kirkwall. Why not a PC elf? Aveline, a mage/warrior companion, and family ties could have been written in as needed. Other than lack of creativity the story of the Champion could have been any race.

Also, for every extra origin they'd add, they'd have to remove a level of depth from the overall gameplay. That's just unavoidable. They'd have to make more different reactions to races and backgrounds. In some games, that might be very good. In others, like DA2 (imo), it would not have been good. As I said, depends on the game.

Making different reactions would be adding to the depth not be subtracting from it. 

And if the origins for DA2 would've been very subtle, like just what kind of inhabitants the Hawke family were in Kirkwall, I don't really see the point. Better then that they have time for to fill out the rest of the story, if the origins aren't even going to play at least a somewhat important role. 

The importance of Origins would be the origin section of the game outside of there would be fewer differences, in a social commentary way to point out there's no large differences in race to begin with.

Again, just lost on some people.

Modifié par TJSolo, 23 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[dragon-boy]

for dragon age 3 it would be good to bring back the wardens but they shouldn't got back the way they should always be looking for the next bext thing for the best RPG games ever. people who think they should go back are stupid. the wardens shpuld make a return for DA:3 but it should be completly different from dragon age 2 and origins, just like DA:2 was completly different from origins. there may be links to origins but they're small. so i say it again bioware should look to improve everything about DA:2 for DA:3 not go back to origins unless its only for the wardens as a whole not just the warden from origins.

[ExiledMimic]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

It WOULD have been great to have different alternative origins stories for Hawke, but I'm 99% sure that such a thing won't even be possible for DA3 - after all, the way DA2 ends leaves little doubt that DA3 will feature Hawke as continuing his adventures; now perhaps as the central figure in the fight to bring back order into Thedas.

That would mean that DA2 IS the origin story for the hero of DA3.

I will say this now with 100% conviction.  And I know it sounds a tad like trolling, but it's a completely honest oppinion.  If Hawke is the main character in DA3 I'm not even going to buy it.  Honestly after all my expectations for DA2 crashed Hawke has become a polorizing character for me.  One that reminds me of everything that went tragically wrong in the creative process.

Bringing back the Warden would be kind of hard, but letting you create a new character would be fine.  Running into the Warden and Hawke?  Fine.  But honestly as much as I adored Origins my oppinion of DA2 is the polar opposite.  I'm on my second new playthrough of Origins after beating DA2 and haven't touched it since.  If the series wants to continue that way it's welcome to, as it's not my right to dictate to anyone how their product has to be.  However should it continue that way it will be without my purchase.  Plain and simple.

[tfcreative]

TJSolo wrote...

Are you implying that the majority of Origins players all picked the same origin or that the majority of Origins players stuck with one origin for themselves?
I don't see how either is an argument against having choice.

I don't know if the assertion about people sticking with the same origin is true, but if it is then it's a very powerful argument against having choice. That choice comes at a cost in development of other areas, so if the choice is left unutilized, then the cost was not worth it. Most of the criticism leveled at DA2 is done so on the basis of limited development time and resources, so clearly hours spent on one area weakens another.

I'm not trying to argue the conclusion here since I actually used 3 origins for my 3 full playthroughs (did the other ones just to see the origin), but I do think you're having a hard time seeing outside of your own preferences and play habits.

[Vormaerin]

The origins in DAO made very little difference to the game. It was obviously not possible to have an elf or dwarf or qunari in Kirkwall with the social status of the Amells.

I found the origins quite annoying, because they make basically no difference to the DAO story. The instant you became a Gray Warden, everyone forgot what that you were a dirtbag knife ear murderer or whatever. The story clearly was written from the point of view of a human noble origin with a few sprinkles of color for other choices.

I want a good, tight, interesting story. That usually involves making some clear assumptions about the protagonist. I'd rather they were upfront with them than pretend that other assumptions actually fit into the story.


The devs some time ago said that their computer logging showed that most people played the game once or twice and the majority of those played a human fighter or rogue, IIRC.   The dwarf origins were significantly underutilized, for example.   Choice of race/class/gender increases the chance the player will identify with the character, but it comes at a cost to development resources  (imagine if the other five origins had been converted into that many more quests for everyone) and weakens the framework of the story since it has to be looser.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 24 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[Shevy]

I second this. Bring back more Origins for DA3. That means: bring back more rpg, less ridiculous action-combat and thousands of reused areas.
Thanks.

[hakwea]

Vormaerin wrote...
The devs some time ago said that their computer logging showed that most people played the game once or twice and the majority of those played a human fighter or rogue, IIRC.   The dwarf origins were significantly underutilized, for example.   Choice of race/class/gender increases the chance the player will identify with the character, but it comes at a cost to development resources  (imagine if the other five origins had been converted into that many more quests for everyone) and weakens the framework of the story since it has to be looser.

That is a faulty assertation. You don't have to sacrifice story in order to incorporate more of that story. For example a character from the dwarven origin could have had a dwarven story woven in just as easily. Instead of having the earl of redcliff, or redcliff be the main launching point it could have been dwarves taking the center stage. It wouldn't have changed the story much at all but would have still emphasized that origin by having the wardens "race" be closer.

The problem with the origins isn't that it was to daunting to incorporate them, but that the story couldn't incorporate them. It couldn't handle any of those origins because bioware made the central plot so rigid that those differences had to be ignored.  They could have easily have added a few npc's or give minor roles once you secured your races origin while keeping the story the same. And use up very few resources. Most cinematics were in-game rendered and would have easily have handled "generic race npc" in the shot to show a closer tie to the origins.

Even DA2 could have allowed multiple races easily with nothing that major changing. An elf could have easily have fled the blight in and been rescued by flemeth and ended up at a relatives in the alienage. And have worked their way up to chain by their deeds. After all thats exactly what the hawkes did. Only got to where they were cause of the Main characters actions, with out those they would have still been at gamlens in lowtown. Same thing with dwarves, they could have easily have done a story of a dwarf being exiled to the surface or a dwarven family fleeing the deep roads and the blight being rescued by flemeth.

Even the hawke origin story is severely lacking. How much better would it have been if instead of running down a straight line during varrics introduction you instead were in lothering itself. If the game started with your brother barging into your house to warn of the defeat at ostagar and the oncoming blight. And you actually had to hurridly flee your home and fight off the darkspawn.

Instead the origin consisted of running down a rocky path away from darkspawn, even when the darkspawn are coming from the direction ahead. Fleeing south instead, despite the map not changing your direction, meeting a templar and his wife out of no where. Sure its Varric's retelling but for a master storyteller he sure didn't due it justice. Nor did bioware.

It isn't the fault of resources, the fault of "multiple choices weakening the plot". It is 100% a fault for bioware for not doing it. It could have easily been written, easily been designed. And easily have been accounted for. Yes it would require more resources nothing vast or extraordinary. And in the end it would have been far worth it.

[hakwea]

Shevy_001 wrote...

I second this. Bring back more Origins for DA3. That means: bring back more rpg, less ridiculous action-combat and thousands of reused areas.
Thanks.

Action combat has been a part of every single rpg created for the computer.

[Shevy]

Sure, but look at the melee rogues. Thats circus, not fighting.
For me, Origins combat was 10 times better.

[hakwea]

Shevy_001 wrote...

Sure, but look at the melee rogues. Thats circus, not fighting.
For me, Origins combat was 10 times better.

Animations, or lack of, is not what makes an rpg an rpg. Having animations does not stop something from being an rpg. Just as lacking animations does not somehow grant it rpg status.

[Vormaerin]

hakwea wrote...

It isn't the fault of resources, the fault of "multiple choices weakening the plot". It is 100% a fault for bioware for not doing it. It could have easily been written, easily been designed. And easily have been accounted for. Yes it would require more resources nothing vast or extraordinary. And in the end it would have been far worth it.

Having multiple origins that actually matter is certainly possible.  I can't think of too many examples where it was more than entirely cosmetic.  There are two issues ot address in this regards.   

First is duplicate work.  Any work done on the dwarf origins is completely wasted on the 40% (or whatever) of players who never played a dwarf in DAO.   That's an hour or two of gameplay that could be given to everyone in the main story.   So if you are going to spend the resources like that, you have to make sure that it is really worth it.  Most people who buy your game don't play it four, five, or six times to get value for all those origins.

Second is the nature of the story:  If you want to tie your protagonist to the setting, you need to know who and what he or she is.  Why do you think most games have "random stranger/orphan from isolated village shows up and saves the day" plots?  Because a plot involving a person who is actually connected to the world is very hard to do with all the different race options.

In DAO, they have five or six hours of gameplay associated with origins that gets completely flushed down the toilet the instant you join the wardens.  The whole rest of the game, your origin matters for one or two one liners in a particular zone and a slightly different slide in the epilogue...

The origins weaken the story considerably, actually.  Its quite ridiculous that a murderous elf from the alienage has the same social access in the Landsmeet as the Cousland heir.  Its pasted over by Alistair being so spineless that you have to act in his stead, but its still a joke.

I'm not saying that multiple races and origins is never worth it, but it most certainly does come at a cost.

[hakwea]

Vormaerin wrote...
The origins weaken the story considerably, actually.  Its quite ridiculous that a murderous elf from the alienage has the same social access in the Landsmeet as the Cousland heir.  Its pasted over by Alistair being so spineless that you have to act in his stead, but its still a joke.

I'm not saying that multiple races and origins is never worth it, but it most certainly does come at a cost.

But they don't have to. It is easy to incorporate them into the larger story, because they are both being done for the same story. Origin stories don't inherently weaken the story in a game. They do in DA:Origins because bioware failed at creating the story of the game.

The cost is pretty neglible though. Even to incorporate them into the story. You mention the landsmeet. It could have been easy to incorporate the origin stories pretty easily and with very few extra resources. A few extra lines of voice over and a few different in-game cinematics and you have the story reflecting the differences. Besides your example is a litle weak since you are a grey warden. Grey wardens are supposed to be treated that way, where the past doesn't matter. If you've played awakening this is further explained with the various characters and how they are conscripted.

You can't say that using choices is to resource intensive and would weaken the story when the resources and story are devoted around choices. You can't have it both ways. You don't have to create "hours and hours" of content exclusive to a race. You do have to create content that makes that original choice meaningful in a game of choices.

You are defending bioware and truly to explain why they couldn't. When instead you should be asking why they DIDN'T. It wouldn't have weakened the story to make those choices meaingful. Wouldn't have required hours of plot re-writes. Wouldn't have required vast amounts of extra resources. A few voice overs and extra npc's (generic appearing or not). Nothing earth shattering.

Also you stating that the time spent on origins could have been given to the rest of the game isn't applicable at all. Since the rest of the game would be unchanged without those origins, and the game was created with those origins in mind. So no "extra" resources were used in that content. Besides its clear they don't mind creating content that not everyone uses based on the amount of optional quests in the game. And option represents more then half of the content in DA:O. Not to mention a lot of area's in the origin stories were re-used later on or used main plot related areas.

[TJSolo]

tfcreative wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Are you implying that the majority of Origins players all picked the same origin or that the majority of Origins players stuck with one origin for themselves?
I don't see how either is an argument against having choice.

I don't know if the assertion about people sticking with the same origin is true, but if it is then it's a very powerful argument against having choice. That choice comes at a cost in development of other areas, so if the choice is left unutilized, then the cost was not worth it. Most of the criticism leveled at DA2 is done so on the basis of limited development time and resources, so clearly hours spent on one area weakens another.

I'm not trying to argue the conclusion here since I actually used 3 origins for my 3 full playthroughs (did the other ones just to see the origin), but I do think you're having a hard time seeing outside of your own preferences and play habits.

I think it odd that you want to accuse me of being blinded by my playing habits when I am calling for options that support multiple playing habits vs someone that is calling for a one canon origin.

Even if I take the question to mean the most extreme case, the majority of players all played the same race as each other. It does not support not supplying the choice for those that want it. Unless you bring numbers with you talking about cost vs benefit is conjecture and meaningless for this conversation. We all should know that it costs money and time to make a game, when I request more features for a game I am fully aware of the consequences.

The time DA2 spent in development is an abnormality amoung top tier games but may become common place for EA. The timeframe alotted weaken every area of DA2. 

Modifié par TJSolo, 24 mars 2011 - 04:34 .