15 réponses à ce sujet

[Freakfire6713]

     Just curious what everyone's insight is to the optimal party for this nightmare run. As of right now I am running Aveline(Tank), Varrick(Rdps), Anders(Support/Heals), and of course myself as an Archer.

    Should I swap out Varrick for someone else if so please respond

[RascalRyu]

Good build, but id use the Exact same.
remember to edit varricks tactics to make him use Gour on avaline when anyone is getting attacked
If anyone comes after anyone but Aveline youll be taking heavy damage

[jsamlaw]

If you're running Aveline as a tank you'll probably need to keep Varric for ranged DPS. Isabela will die too fast on nightmare and Merrill, while useful won't have anywhere near the persistent dps that Varric will, especially on bosses. You could run Fenris as one of the main vanguard builds, but be careful putting too many activated skills on him or Aveline will eat a lot of splash damage.

[Waltzingbear]

There's nothing wrong with a strong non-magical party as any party buff that benefits a character will benefit the others in the same way.
Anders is the best if not the only way to go with this kind of party build with Elemental Weapons Haste and Heroic Aura.

Fenris tends to do better in this build if you go archer.

[aethernox]

I just don't think that archers can compete with dual-weapon rogues in any respect. Their damage output is significantly lower with no real benefit. Neither the Dual Weapon or Archery skill trees have anything worth using, however, so it's mostly choosing between having range and not having significantly reduced DPS.

[SlamminHams]

That's the group composition I'd go if/when I go an Archer Rogue. Aveline's damage mitigation far surpasses Fenris' extra threat. Varric is there for DPS and Threat support. Anders would get nearly the entirety of the Creation tree (I'm still up in the air about Repulsion) and most of his Vengeance tree. then bleed into Primal/Elemental towards the end of the game. That leaves Hawke for that sexy ranged DPS.

[SlamminHams]

aethernox wrote...

I just don't think that archers can compete with dual-weapon rogues in any respect. Their damage output is significantly lower with no real benefit. Neither the Dual Weapon or Archery skill trees have anything worth using, however, so it's mostly choosing between having range and not having significantly reduced DPS.

Uh...?

While I agree on Archery being suboptimal (except for Pinning Shot), there's pretty much no difference in damage output between DW and Ranged Rogues.  Also, Explosive Strike is probably the second strongest hitting ability in this game, followed by Twin Fangs.

And if you think being ranged isn't a benefit then I'm not really sure what to say, except that it's a huge benefit.

Maybe you just didn't build your characters right or maybe you're basing this off the performance of Varric/Sebastian compared to Isabela.  Forever a mystery.

[JaykoVetinari]

I'm playing through the second time on Nightmare (no KO run!) as an archery rogue, the first time I did it on hard as a dual wield rogue. I will say this...while you can kill a few of the mid level mobs faster with twin fangs, other than that there is absolutely no advantage that dual wield has over archery. None.

The distance between you and NPCs increases survivability by a ridiculous amount. It's so much easier to deal with groups of archers as an archer than it is as a melee rogue. The only way I would even CONSIDER doing dual wield rogue on Nightmare really is by carrying a bow and using archery most of the time anyways except for Twin Fangs. The extra dps simply isn't worth the extra damage taken, not to mention it's almost impossible to melee some of the major bosses or at least it's far easier.

Either build with assassinate and you can be doing 15k+ damage if you're doing cross class combos....the only real thing that you have to decide is whether you want twin fangs or Archer's lance and Pinning Shot. Rain and exploding have a tendency to be not terribly useful due to the AE component and using it on groups of ranged mobs tends to draw too much attention.

[Ganen]

iProXxRampagexX wrote...

     Just curious what everyone's insight is to the optimal party for this nightmare run. As of right now I am running Aveline(Tank), Varrick(Rdps), Anders(Support/Heals), and of course myself as an Archer.

    Should I swap out Varrick for someone else if so please respond

I like to switch team m8s its more fun.

but the ideal comp for me is
me: assassination archer (single target dps and goad + armstice agro management)
Aveline: weapon and shield (duh) + her tree + vanguard extras (tank)
Anders: Creation + his tree + spirit (support buffer healer)
Merrill: primal + horror and hexes + her full blood tree (CC and debuffer)

so ye I would advise you switch varric for a CC built merril or you could instead build varric for control and extra dps if you your tactics dont usually ask for CC and instead perfer extra single target train dps.

aethernox wrote...

I just don't think that archers can
compete with dual-weapon rogues in any respect. Their damage output is
significantly lower with no real benefit. Neither the Dual Weapon or
Archery skill trees have anything worth using, however, so it's mostly
choosing between having range and not having significantly reduced DPS.

actually depending on the fights composition and micro
managing (pause spam) a dagger rogue has significant disadvantages over a
archer...
the first and most obvious one is Range = safety, less
chances of being caught in aoe stuff, quicker time to react/plan when
agroing and not to mention boss fights like dragons and the rock wraith.

also rogues are the clas most vulnerable to being staggered and chain staggered, being in close range facilitates that...
not to mention its nice to have a playing character that has an overall view of the battlefield to see whats going on with team m8s and reenforcement spawns and stuff. (goad and armstice use)

as
for the dps... tbh I think they are nearly the same, only archer shoot
in larger number shots (burst) while rogues have lightning speed weak
attacks (long term dps) wich ofc is limited by having to move around the
battlefield out and into melee ranges

Modifié par Ganen, 23 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[naughty99]

I suggest to go with DW and Archery, no need to choose exclusively one or the other. You can get the best of both worlds. Or start as an Archer and then try adding a few DW talents with a maker's sigh potion. If you don't like it, you can always go back to your earlier save.

Assassinate does more damage with daggers, even if your bow has much higher damage, not sure exactly how it's calculated but if you check the Assassinate base damage on the ability page, it is higher for daggers (and that number will then be multiplied by 2) - EDIT maybe one of my daggers has increased crit damage modifier?

Also, I started exclusively using Avelline as my tank, but after I watched some tutorials of 2H warriors defeating bosses quickly on Nightmare, I realized that Fenris is the way to go.

Part of my problem was using Shield Defense with Avelline, which eliminates all closing attacks.

Fenris on the other hand, is extremely fast, able to move around the battlefield quickly to keep all enemies engaged with him and away from my Rogue and Mages, especially if you get the upgrade that increases speed by 30% every time he kills someone.

Also, although Avelline can take more damage, Fenris deals enough AoE damage to help you finish battles more quickly than Avelline, so he doesn't need to take as much damage. Some of Avelline's abilities that make her tougher, also make her slower (Shield Defense, Indomitable, Stonewall, Retaliate), and she can't move around the battlefield very quickly.

IMO, Anders is essential for Nightmare because his Group Revive spell works across huge distances, even after you retreat to the other side of the map, for example. Also he has access to all of the CCC spells from Primal, Elemental and Arcane schools.

Merril can do lots of damage with access to the same CCC spells (get upgraded Petrify and Winter's Grasp for both if you can, and Hex of Torment for at least one mage in order to make more opportunities for your Rogue to one-shot or two-shot bosses with Assassinate.) You sometimes have to cast a brittle spell a few times on a boss before they actually become brittle.

Also helps to have 2 mages with Petrify, upgraded Winter's Grasp or Paralyzing Prison when you get attacked by 2 or more Assassins (or Act 3 spiders, etc.) at the same time.

Modifié par naughty99, 23 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[SlamminHams]

[quote]naughty99 wrote...

Part of my problem was using Shield Defense with Avelline, which eliminates all closing attacks. [/quote]

Shield Defense, for the most part, isn't good to leave on and is really should only be used while fighting bosses.  I'm pretty sure allies don't have closing attacks anyway.

[quote[Fenris on the other hand, is extremely fast, able to move around the battlefield quickly to keep all enemies engaged with him and away from my Rogue and Mages, especially if you get the upgrade that increases speed by 30% every time he kills someone.[/quote]

Battle Tempo increases attack speed, not movement speed.

[Quote]Also, although Avelline can take more damage, Fenris deals enough AoE damage to help you finish battles more quickly than Avelline, so he doesn't need to take as much damage. Some of Avelline's abilities that make her tougher, also make her slower (Shield Defense, Indomitable, Stonewall, Retaliate), and she can't move around the battlefield very quickly.[/quote]

All those listed abilities are really, really bad, except Stonewall, which is more of a nicety than a necessity if build right.  Retaliate doesn't even work right, I believe and Indomitable is a trash point to get the two best tanking talents in the game.

Having more damage (which Fenris isn't that far ahead if built right anyway) is really only beneficial on fights that don't matter, since enemies will die quickly regardless.

I've personally never been sold on Fenris.  It seems most people who are enthralled by him threw Fadeshear on Aveline and kept Shield Defense on 100% of the time and didn't even get her Cleave+Claymore.

[aethernox]

SlamminHams wrote...
Uh...?

While I agree on Archery being suboptimal (except for Pinning Shot), there's pretty much no difference in damage output between DW and Ranged Rogues.  Also, Explosive Strike is probably the second strongest hitting ability in this game, followed by Twin Fangs.

And if you think being ranged isn't a benefit then I'm not really sure what to say, except that it's a huge benefit.

Maybe you just didn't build your characters right or maybe you're basing this off the performance of Varric/Sebastian compared to Isabela.  Forever a mystery.

Comparing respecs on my level 22ish hard/nightmare rogue. While auto-attacking, my damage was comparable (550ish with a bow crit, about 260 per hit with daggers), but the damage numbers were significantly different when using talents. I was hitting for about 5000 on a bow assassinate, versus 4000 for each dagger strike. For the record, my dagger set-up used Finesse and The Carta's Left Hand. I used Jackal's Longbow for the bow build. I didn't use any abilities from either of their respective skill trees.

The Longbow has the serious disadvanage of dealing fire damage, though. Fire resistance is just a bit too common for my tastes.

I realize that range is advantageous, but I don't feel that it's worth the loss of additional enchantments, rune slots, and general damage output.

[naughty99]

SlamminHams wrote...

Shield Defense, for the most part, isn't good to leave on and is really should only be used while fighting bosses.  I'm pretty sure allies don't have closing attacks anyway.

isn't most of the damage from bosses coming from Activated Abilities - does Shield Defense help protect from this?

in terms of the closing attacks, if you turn off shield defense, Avelline rushes forward to meet enemies, with Shield Defense on, Avelline has to walk over to them first.

This kind of closing attack is helpful to keep Boss aggro on your tank and to wipe out smaller Boss support like the small rock wraiths in the Ancient Rock Wraith battle. It took me forever to beat that thing with Avelline because I had Shield Defense on the entire time (didn't realize about the closing attacks) and the smaller Rock Wraiths would knockback-lock Varric, my rogue and Anders with electric attacks.   

if Fenris attack speed is increased, he moves around the battlefield more quickly because each attack is made from a short distance away, so he is almost leaping from enemy to enemy.

If you watch Sabresandiego's tutorial video of the Rock Wraith, he runs around with his 2H warrior and mops the floor with those smaller enemies so everyone can hit the big guy when he's down on the ground.

I'm sure it didn't help that I had no AoE spells or abilities for Anders or Varric, but that battle was a huge PITA.

Modifié par naughty99, 23 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[Ganen]

I stay away defender tree with aveline tbh, the dps loss and the talent points used to boost defence, and magic resistance arnt worth it, stonewall is ok-ish for a panic button but then again, other classes can give relief better than that with abilities like force field and freindly fire disabled CC

have to disagree on shield defence tho... its a steady sure thing +% dmg resitance, its just awesome, you lose closing attacks true (and yes allies do have closing attacks, aveline for exemple charges forward with the shild offencively for exemple) and loose a bit of force/dps there but worth it.
I dont keep it on either tho, I have this script for aveline to auto manage it:

Self: surrounded by at least 4 mobs : activate shield defence
enemy rank boss or higher: activate shield defence
Self: surrounded by no enemies: de-activate shield defence.

works good for me

naughty99 wrote...

SlamminHams wrote...

Shield
Defense, for the most part, isn't good to leave on and is really should
only be used while fighting bosses.  I'm pretty sure allies don't have
closing attacks anyway.

isn't most of the damage from bosses coming from Activated Abilities - does Shield Defense help protect from this?

yeah
it does, thats the thing, in the shield and sword tree (shield defence
skill) it gives a flat increase in damage resistance %

the one in
the defender tree however, gives +%defence wich is much weaker and imho
not worth taking, the defencive talentso n aveline's unique tree are
waaaaaaaaaay better and more worth it to take than anything in defender
tree.
damage resistance > armor > hp/con > defence imho

Modifié par Ganen, 23 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[Waltzingbear]

You're playing Aveline wrong. I was confounded when I first saw it but the initial tactics set for her are actually very close to the right way to utilize her. As a default she should have no sustainables on (except perhaps the damage transfer). It's really simple to set her tactics to only turn on defensive modes in specific situations and turn them off otherwise.

I don't spec into revive or use any such grenades. Your party members shouldn't die unless you're playing without pausing.
The problem is that Anders is the only mage (after Bethany) to have the "green tree" (I forget Creation is it?) with all the sweet abilities so I at least lose a great deal without rolling with him.

[naughty99]

Waltzingbear wrote...
Your party members shouldn't die unless you're playing without pausing.

:OI wish!

My first playthrough is at 121 hrs (Nightmare, Rogue Hawke) and I'm at the beginning of Act 3 


I play every battle constantly pausing and micromanaging every character action with no tactics at all except for activating sustained modes like Summon Mabari, Lyrium Ghost and Elemental Weapons. Frequently one or more party members dies during battle (or the entire party) and sometimes only one party member survives and has to run like hell.

Beating Arishok Duel: Pause, click on floor a few feet away, Pause, click on floor a few feet away, Pause, fire a bow shot, repeat to infinity 

Modifié par naughty99, 23 mars 2011 - 02:33 .