141 réponses à ce sujet

[Zandilar]

Icy Magebane wrote...
I'm going to say two things and then I'm done with this topic.
1)  Only an idiot would leave a rogue of Leliana's caliber for dead without checking to make sure that she's dead, even if that means incinerating the corpse.  The Warden wouldn't have made that mistake.

Even the worst murderers in the world eventually make a mistake. No one is perfect. Perhaps the Warden was in a hurry to leave? (Just playing devil's advocate here...)

2)  The Maker is not necessarily real, and only in the minds of people who love Leliana does it make sense that she's somehow "favored."  The Maker didn't seem to care very much for the Grand Cleric or King Cailan...

The Maker doesn't care much for anything, IMHO not even Leliana (who I actually adored). It's part of the background of the games. On the weight of the evidence presented within the game, the Maker is a delusion on a grand scale. They think they can sing him back to their world with their chant, and their exalted marches, and by converting everyone on the face of the planet - which isn't ever going to happen... (The delusion theory may well also go for the Elvhenan as well - who believe their gods will return when they become "real elves" - don't ask me what that means!)

However, that doesn't mean that the Ashes of Andraste don't have miraculous properties (just maybe not divine in origin)... Or that the place in which the ashes rested didn't have some kind of residual magic that may have kept Leliana (and Wynne, if she had been "killed" too) alive when the Warden thought she (they) was (were) dead.

Anyway, if Leliana was very popular, the chances are that not many people would have killed her off in the first place. Or it could be that it was something that was overlooked in the development of DA2.

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm not sure (aside from being a Zevran fan).  If you read Zevran's DA2 codex, what he's doing can have far reaching implications in Thedas -- much further reaching that I actually thought they'd give him.  An entire nation may be destroyed because of what he's doing.

I really don't mind so much who they leave alive and dead.  My guess is it will blend well into future stories.

If we don't go to Antiva, what Zevran's doing won't have a big impact on the game I think - nothing that can't be handled by a few codex entries and cameo quests.  Just like the various potential rulers aren't all that difficult to accomodate so long as we stay out of Ferelden.  Whereas the apparent sequel hook would put Leliana pretty central to the main plot.

I'm certain I saw David Gaider confirming that Zevran wasn't supposed to be in the game if he died.  Though I suppose that may not rule out resurrecting him for a future game.

I also think it may count against Zevran that - I suspect - more people killed him than killed Leliana.

[The Angry One]

You have at least 3 more obvious ways to kill Zevran than Leliana. You can kill him upon meeting him, you can kill him after telling him to leave and you can kill him if he betrays you.
Leliana on the other hand has one relatively obscure way to die.

[mesmerizedish]

Porenferser wrote...

No.
At least not in my Game.

Her death was treated correct.

Maybe its an early bug that has been fixed already.

Huh. Maybe [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

The Angry One wrote...

You have at least 3 more obvious ways to kill Zevran than Leliana. You can kill him upon meeting him, you can kill him after telling him to leave and you can kill him if he betrays you.
Leliana on the other hand has one relatively obscure way to die.

Which, in retrospect, I'll bet the devs wish they hadn't implemented. Because now OH NOES PEOPLE ARE UPSET.

[Magicman10893]

When I killed Leliana I literally decapitated her! How in the hell did she "feign" that death or how did she crawl over to the healing relic that I tainted or how was she "knocked out." If continuity can be that ****ed up then let me retcon my Mage being the King of Ferelden!

[ejoslin]

The Angry One wrote...

You have at least 3 more obvious ways to kill Zevran than Leliana. You can kill him upon meeting him, you can kill him after telling him to leave and you can kill him if he betrays you.
Leliana on the other hand has one relatively obscure way to die.

Many people kill Leliana.  Others leave her in Lothering (which makes it odd that she rises in the Chantry).

But she's in the game.  People who killed her are going to complain.  I honestly don't care.

I was just surprised at Zevran's codex entry, tbh.  A one-man war, which he is winning, is pretty awesome.

Edit: @Wulfram What kind of annoys me, though, is the attitude, "I like this character, so they should be in the game no matter WHAT happened to other people, but since I don't like THIS character, my choice should count more than other people's."  The story being told will be what it is, though.  Zevran is most certainly bugged in DA2, in many ways.

The OP seemed to be upset because he choice was totally discounted. I think that's his right.  Just like you're apparently not happy that a character you killed off is back in.  I doubt it will make any difference, however.  The writers have their story in mind

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[JamesX]

There is one other possibility...

She really was chosen by the Maker to do something...

And upon her death the Maker gave her the miracle of resurrection

Modifié par JamesX, 22 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[Lithuasil]

ejoslin wrote...


I was just surprised at Zevran's codex entry, tbh.  A one-man war, which he is winning, is pretty awesome.

I blame his pointy cheekbones 

[mesmerizedish]

ejoslin wrote...

Many people kill Leliana.  Others leave her in Lothering (which makes it odd that she rises in the Chantry).

But she's in the game.  People who killed her are going to complain.  I honestly don't care.

I was just surprised at Zevran's codex entry, tbh.  A one-man war, which he is winning, is pretty awesome.

Edit: What kind of annoys me, though, is the attitude, "I like this character, so they should be in the game no matter WHAT happened to other people, but since I don't like THIS character, my choice should count more than other people's."  I actually am responding to another post, though, with this edit.

If you leave her in Lothering, there's no indication that she dies. In fact, Bethany mentions the Chantry sisters all fleeing, so Leliana almost certainly will have survived. The only way that she "surely" died is if you killed her yourself, which is still iffy. After all, if she had been in your party and someone else had killed her, she'd just have been knocked out.

Saying "Well, I decapitated her" isn't a good argument, because that's a gameplay mechanic that actually doesn't have much bearing on the story. That's the game showing you decapitating her, but you didn't actually decapitate her, because she was just knocked out. You have to seperate the game from the story. Yes, it requires some suspension of disbelief, but I think that's better than complaining about how "Leliana is DEAD."

[ejoslin]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Many people kill Leliana.  Others leave her in Lothering (which makes it odd that she rises in the Chantry).

But she's in the game.  People who killed her are going to complain.  I honestly don't care.

I was just surprised at Zevran's codex entry, tbh.  A one-man war, which he is winning, is pretty awesome.

Edit: What kind of annoys me, though, is the attitude, "I like this character, so they should be in the game no matter WHAT happened to other people, but since I don't like THIS character, my choice should count more than other people's."  I actually am responding to another post, though, with this edit.

If you leave her in Lothering, there's no indication that she dies. In fact, Bethany mentions the Chantry sisters all fleeing, so Leliana almost certainly will have survived. The only way that she "surely" died is if you killed her yourself, which is still iffy. After all, if she had been in your party and someone else had killed her, she'd just have been knocked out.

Saying "Well, I decapitated her" isn't a good argument, because that's a gameplay mechanic that actually doesn't have much bearing on the story. That's the game showing you decapitating her, but you didn't actually decapitate her, because she was just knocked out. You have to seperate the game from the story. Yes, it requires some suspension of disbelief, but I think that's better than complaining about how "Leliana is DEAD."

Leliana is killed at the ashes.  The OP is upset that his choice is not being taken into account.  It's not.  A canon is being forced upon him.  Saying she was knocked out is a retcon.  Again, I don't care much, so I probably shouldn't have poked my head in here.  But I do respect someone feeling their choices are being discounted.

Not everyone's choices can be taken into account.  That's fine when it's a choice you usually make, but it will be jarring when it's not.

[The Angry One]

ejoslin wrote...

Many people kill Leliana. 

Regardless, it's still an obscure way.

Others leave her in Lothering (which makes it odd that she rises in the Chantry).

Leliana was a perfectly competent bard, thief and assassin before Lothering.
Nothing says she couldn't have left Lothering and caught the notice of the Divine some other way.
Rumors about her and the Hero of Ferelden could start either way, as she was in the same area as them whether you interact with her or not.

[ejoslin]

The Angry One wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Many people kill Leliana. 

Regardless, it's still an obscure way.

Others leave her in Lothering (which makes it odd that she rises in the Chantry).

Leliana was a perfectly competent bard, thief and assassin before Lothering.
Nothing says she couldn't have left Lothering and caught the notice of the Divine some other way.
Rumors about her and the Hero of Ferelden could start either way, as she was in the same area as them whether you interact with her or not.

*sigh* Again, I don't really care, but Leliana being alive no matter what is a retcon for many people.  /shrug.  Lots of people like Leliana, loved her as a romance partner, and are delighted she's coming back.  I think that's great.  But the OP has just as much right to be annoyed that she's still alive when he killed her at the urn.

Edit: And also, keep in mind that the data about Leliana is skewed about how many people romanced her as she had a bug that made people basically auto-romance her and then the following breakup didn't work either (not sure how much of that data got sent).  So she may be a bit less popular than the numbers show.  I personally like the character, but the OP has a valid point.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[mesmerizedish]

ejoslin wrote...

Leliana is killed at the ashes.

In some people's games.

The OP is upset that his choice is not being taken into account.  It's not.  A canon is being forced upon him.

This is one decision that in the scope of the Origins game is actually quite insignificant.

Saying she was knocked out is a retcon.

It's an explanation after-the-fact, not a retcon. There's a subtle distinctin.

Again, I don't care much, so I probably shouldn't have poked my head in here.

Maybe not, but you said interesting things that I wanted to answer.

But I do respect someone feeling their choices are being discounted.

So do I. Just not this choice.

Not everyone's choices can be taken into account.  That's fine when it's a choice you usually make, but it will be jarring when it's not.

Indeed, but again, this choice is rather insignificant.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 22 mars 2011 - 11:01 .

[The Angry One]

ejoslin wrote...

*sigh* Again, I don't really care, but Leliana being alive no matter what is a retcon for many people.  /shrug.  Lots of people like Leliana, loved her as a romance partner, and are delighted she's coming back.  I think that's great.  But the OP has just as much right to be annoyed that she's still alive when he killed her at the urn.

My point is that there are so many resources allocated to a given game and with that and the development time not every variable is going to be accounted for. So in this case a relatively obscure event is retconned so they can keep their cameo and don't have to come up with an alternate part for that section with yet another voice actor and so on.

[Alexein]

If we acknowledge that leliana can be dead, and her resurrection contradicts existing decisions, is there anything positive we can do about it?

Stop buying bioware games until they release a dead leliana patch?

[Apollo Starflare]

While it's a shame she doesn't stay dead (was looking forward to seeing who turned up in her place in my next playthrough which has a Leliana-less import) it's not hard to imagine her surviving. I seem to remember her 'death' just occurs in a normal battle and not scripted or in a cut scene or anything, normal battles I'm fine with being retconned into just showing a character 'knocked out'. It's no different to me than one of your characters falling in battle in that case.

Of course if in your game she got her head cut off in a death animation then it's a little harder to suspend your disbelief!

[mesmerizedish]

Alexein wrote...

Stop buying bioware games until they release a dead leliana patch?

I'll stop buying BioWare games until they release a patch for Origins that prevents you from killing her.

[JamesX]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Indeed, but again, this choice is rather insignificant.

The problem is either you have canon or you don't.  Even if you made 1 thing canon it becomes canon.

So right now Bioware made "Lilianna always surrives Origins" Canon.  That is just a simpel fact.

No amount of wrangling is going to change that.  You could cast the walking bomb spell on her, turn on the corpse sucking power and suck her body dry, and she will still survive.

her survival (irregardless how Bioware justify or twist storylines) is canon.

From this point forward Bioware can no longer say "There is no Canon in Dragon Age"  because unfortunately now there is.

Modifié par JamesX, 22 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[The Angry One]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Of course if in your game she got her head cut off in a death animation then it's a little harder to suspend your disbelief!

She used a body-double like Sebastian and stealthed.

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

Many people kill Leliana.  Others leave her in Lothering (which makes it odd that she rises in the Chantry).

It's less odd when you realise that the new Divine is the Reverend Mother in Leliana's Song.  The right connections can get you far

Edit: @Wulfram What kind of annoys me, though, is the attitude, "I like this character, so they should be in the game no matter WHAT happened to other people, but since I don't like THIS character, my choice should count more than other people's."  The story being told will be what it is, though.  Zevran is most certainly bugged in DA2, in many ways.

The OP seemed to be upset because he choice was totally discounted. I think that's his right.  Just like you're apparently not happy that a character you killed off is back in.  I doubt it will make any difference, however.  The writers have their story in mind

I don't have any problem with Zevran being back.  Actually all my saves where he died got eaten when my computer died and the CD I backed them up on didn't work - wonder of wonders my canon import where he simply never joined the party imported great since there was a reference to the failed assassination attempt but no implication he ever travelled with the Warden. 

I'm just relaying the information that Leliana always being alive is intended, while Zevran always being alive is a bug, as well as my speculation about what that means for their future in the series.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 mars 2011 - 11:10 .

[The Angry One]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Alexein wrote...

Stop buying bioware games until they release a dead leliana patch?

I'll stop buying BioWare games until they release a patch for Origins that prevents you from killing her.

I'll stop buying BioWare games until they release a patch for Origins that prevents a patch for Origins that prevents you from killing her!

[Merced652]

Gaider already said to deal with it and that they will do as they please to whatever character they want, and you should feel blessed should they bother to offer an explanation at any point.

[KawaiiKatie]

Better question: Why is Leliana working for the Divine, instead of slaughtering Darkspawn with my Aeducan in Orzammar?

Wait, hold up, I just got a new item in my Inventory. Oh, neat, a snowglobe! And it has an inscription....

"LELIANA NEVER LOVED YOU."

......... .............

[Alexein]

Merced652 wrote...

Gaider already said to deal with it and that they will do as they please to whatever character they want, and you should feel blessed should they bother to offer an explanation at any point.

THIS

[mesmerizedish]

JamesX wrote...

The problem is either you have canon or you don't.  Even if you made 1 thing canon it becomes canon.

So right now Bioware made "Lilianna always surrives Origins" Canon.  That is just a simpel fact.

No amount of wrangling is going to change that.  You could cast the walking bomb spell on her, turn on the corpse sucking power and suck her body dry, and she will still survive.

her survival (irregardless how Bioware justify or twist storylines) is canon.

From this point forward Bioware can no longer say "There is no Canon in Dragon Age"  because unfortunately now there is.

Indeed. I never said anything to the contrary. What I said is that this isn't something that's really worth whining about.

BioWare have never said that "There is no canon." They've only said that about certain things, like the Dark Ritual. The Dark Ritual is canonically not canon. Leliana's life now is canon. And... so what? If that means that five minutes of your game now has no impact on ten minutes of the next game, is that really a big deal?