84 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

So I'm trying to get Sebastian to stop moping and take back his City, and am developing a rivalry to push him down this path.  Then I agree with the Grand Cleric that having an exalted march coming against my city is bad.  Wham, huge chunks of Friendship wipe out our relationship.

Meanwhile, you've got Fenris who'll respect you if you like mages, blood magic and slavery, but will probably refuse to follow you in the end if you like mages but don't like blood magic and slavery.

[Rm80]

well the system is not perfect, but nothing never is.

Still a big improvment from Orgins "If you don't agree with everything I say then you can't speak with me system"

[Nathan Redgrave]

It does get a bit screwy at times, yes.

[Wulfram]

Rm80 wrote...

well the system is not perfect, but nothing never is.

Still a big improvment from Orgins "If you don't agree with everything I say then you can't speak with me system"

In Origins you could say want and then give them a few gifts and they'd love you pretty much.  Which also isn't ideal, obviously. 

But it's better than having to try to avoid saying something which they might agree with, which is what happens in DA2 rivalries.

[Icy Magebane]

It can get annoying, and it's hard to get anything done without metagaming, but you can get around the system a bit. Just try not to take Fenris on any mission that involves mages, or say whatever he wants to hear. Same goes with Aveline hating when you do anything "dirty," even simple assassinations. Hell, I gained rivalry from just accepting some missions... But in the end, what you say and do on their personal quests is usually enough to tip the balance far enough in whatever direction you're going for.

[lx_theo]

Its better than other things that have been used. By a lot.

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

Its better than other things that have been used. By a lot.

The Angry One dissapproves -10.

[Brockololly]

Its a nice idea, but the implementation is off I think. Too often I'd try to RP a more nuanced view on certain issues, which does nothing but cause you to get stuck in the middle with companions more often than not, so you're forced to game it one way or the other. It really ends up with the same problems as Origins though, in that you end up taking or not taking certain companions with you based on fear of approval shifts one way or the other.


I'd really like it if they brought back the gifts though- the smaller ones that is. Those made an easy to way to nudge the approval and I thought they added a bit of extra character to some of the companions- like finding out Morrigan's love of fancy jewlery or Alistair and his action figures. Maybe just add specific "rivalry" gifts to nudge companions in the rival direction too.

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[AlexXIV]

It's not a big thing to switch party members and you have tons of auto saves. So just do it again with a different group setup.

[Rm80]

well you kinda had to avoid saying stuff in Orgins aswell or lie. helping others (doing quests) would make Morrigan go crazy. saying anything bad about chantry would anger Leliana and so on...

but ye you could always give them some beef bones to make them happy

[Lithuasil]

It's the best system they've tried out so far - I just wished some things had a little more impact. As it is, the system is designed so you can just about make it completely in one direction over the course of the game - and that sucks, because it boils down to "taking in elven slaves" bothers fenris about as much as "not blackmailing the grieving father of a dead mage-girl"

[Buckarama]

I find myself just leaving them in their home bases and not even taking them, or making sure I change the party to no one but me before turning in a quest. I'd say that's pretty broken. I have yet to do ANYTHING with Fenris - there is no making him happy. So he can stay home and mope all he wants.

[The Angry One]

Brockololly wrote...

 Maybe just add specific "rivalry" gifts to nudge companions in the rival direction too.

Fenris rivalry gift:
"How to Tame Unruly Elven Slaves for Dummies, by Magister Denarius"

Anders rivalry gift:
"Mages and Cages, 500 Ways to Keep Potential Abominations Subdued"

[Foolsfolly]

Actually I got Fenris to switch sides for me in my Pro-Mage character. The other two have been pro-Templar and I've been able to get Merrill to side with me there too.

....I've heard if you side with the Templars and spare Anders you still have to kill him later on. Haven't been pro-Templar and spared Anders yet.

I really REALLY liked the Friendship/Rivalry system. It's so much better than the Like/Dislike system from KOTOR2/DA:O/Alpha Protocol.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Wulfram wrote...

In Origins you could say want and then give them a few gifts and they'd love you pretty much.  Which also isn't ideal, obviously.

Ah, not entirely. Gifts gradually lose their power to sway the character's opinion--each one knocks a point off the next--and only specific gifts have a strong impact on specific characters. If you're already in "disapprove" territory, there's a penalty to the approval bonus you get, as well.

The Feastday gifts/pranks are a special case, more like cheat codes. They always give a fifty-point shift, even bypassing relationship caps (normally, you can't exceed a certain level of approval without either starting a romance or completing a friendship mission, but the Feastday gift bypasses that, allowing you to skip straight to the end of any romance pretty much instantaneously).

EDIT: Interesting thing: Merril's gifts seem to nudge her in whatever direction she's already on. One playthrough I was in the friend zone, and her gifts gave her friendship points. As a rival, she reacted more defensively to the same gifts and dialogue options, and got rivalry points. I thought this was kind of clever, her present perception of you influencing how she reacted to the gifts you gave her.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 22 mars 2011 - 09:35 .

[Wulfram]

AlexXIV wrote...

It's not a big thing to switch party members and you have tons of auto saves. So just do it again with a different group setup.

The Sebastian thing the problem I had was his act 3 quest, so switching party members isn't really an option.

It's also horribly metagamey.  It's fairly tolerable for the friendship path - OK, you don't want to take your friend with you when you're going to do something they find offensive, though how Hawke knows when he's going to do this is problematic.  But for rivalry, where you're effectively going to be saying "OK, I might be doing something this guy approves of.  Better not take him along then" it's just horrible.

[Tigress M]

Buckarama wrote...

I find myself just leaving them in their home bases and not even taking them, or making sure I change the party to no one but me before turning in a quest. I'd say that's pretty broken. I have yet to do ANYTHING with Fenris - there is no making him happy. So he can stay home and mope all he wants.

I just finished a mage hating game and had Fenris at 100% friendship.  There were only two quests I had to leave him out of the party on and one of them I learned later that if I'd picked a different option he would have been fine.  The quests are Long Way Home (just can't take him on that one at all if you're trying for friendship) and An Errant Letter (have to blackmail the Templar, to gain approval, I think).  

But, I do agree it is more difficult to get your companions to swing either one way or the other.  In 2nd playthrough Isabella left completely after getting the relic because I had her waffling on the fence too much.  *shrug* 

[Reidbynature]

Agreed. It is a bad system. Plus it didn't help that the rewards for this was often 'this character sulks some more'.

[Icy Magebane]

I'd rather they just did it like ME to be honest. Why is it so important that you travel with a bunch of complainers who can't get their personal lives in order long enough to focus on the mission? At the very least, we needed more companions. Almost everyone is "good" or basically, they disagree with what I want to do... I'm a mage and I need Fenris for stagger combos, so I have little choice but to put up with his bs about how he hates mages, blah, blah, blah.

Rivalry just doesn't do it for me. That sounds even more annoying because then they'll talk even more crap... just give us more companions so that we don't get forced into dealing with people we don't like. Just my opinions.

[Foolsfolly]

Also gifts are rival and friendship based. Each one can be inflammatory or not.

Give Fenris a book that he can't read and he hates you, tell him he can learn to read and he'll like it. Give a shield to Aveline and she likes it because it's a gift from you or she'll hate it because it's from her namesake. Tevinter chantry amulet to Anders is either a sign of mages living free or it's something he can get killed over.

What does it come down to? If you're closer to Rival than Friendship then you get rival points, if they're closer to friendship you get friendship points.

[Foolsfolly]

nteresting thing: Merril's gifts seem to nudge her in whatever direction she's already on. One playthrough I was in the friend zone, and her gifts gave her friendship points. As a rival, she reacted more defensively to the same gifts and dialogue options, and got rivalry points. I thought this was kind of clever, her present perception of you influencing how she reacted to the gifts you gave her.

That's how gifts work with any character. That's why the gifts aren't like Alistair's Amulet where it can only be good to give him this. They're reminders of Isabella's home or a reminder that she's very likely barren.

It can be taken either way and the deciding factor is their relationship with you.

[p95h]

Personally, I don't think there should be any feedback on how companions react to your choices, until it sets them off, one way or the other. Unless of course, you're playing a blood mage with mind reading/control ability. That should give you feedback, but otherwise nothing until the companion decides if you are a friend or a rival.

[Wulfram]

Foolsfolly wrote...

That's how gifts work with any character. That's why the gifts aren't like Alistair's Amulet where it can only be good to give him this. They're reminders of Isabella's home or a reminder that she's very likely barren.

It can be taken either way and the deciding factor is their relationship with you.

Though I think one of Anders' gifts is bugged.

[Tezzajh]

they should put april fool dlc for DA2 like they did for origins, it will sort this problem, isabella is the worst i act mean = freindship act nasty = freindship