Questa discussione ha avuto 4350 risposte

[yogolol]

 I don`t see how anyone could justify siding with Meredith at the end of the game, unless if you wanted to choose the "evil"" option. I`m ok if you think Templars are needed and I think they needed in a very minor way, but siding with Meredith is clearly the "evil" option. So lets go down on what happens, Anders blows up Chantry and then Meredith wants to kill all Circle mages (who had no role at all in blowing up the Chantry) it`s just not right. If you side with Meredith you are agreeing to killing dozens of innocents, they had no role in blowing up in the Chantry but they will die if you side with Meredith. There`s just aruging that when you sided with Meredith you agreed to kill dozens of innocents, that was your option to kill innocents or defend them the innocents.  

[Malanek]

The same could be said for Orsino and the mages. As far as I am aware there is no right answer at the end of the game.

[yogolol]

Malanek999 wrote...

The same could be said for Orsino and the mages. As far as I am aware there is no right answer at the end of the game.

How? Orisino even says that he`ll allow her to search the Circle if she doesn`t kill them all but Meredith won`t listen to reason and wants the whole Circle killed.

[The Angry One]

The problem is the endgame makes the leaders of both sides crazy bonkers.
One is an abomination waiting to happen, the other has been turned by Soul Edge.

[Reidbynature]

In a way it feels like stretching the Circle of Magi quest in Origins to the main threat in DA2. I can see that people could want side with the Templars, but who actually wants to commit genocide? I think it's made worse by the fact that by then the player has enough reason to believe Meredith is mad and is oppressing all of Kirkwall and not just the Mages which can make the whole Mages/Templars issue pale in comparison.

EDIT: lol, Soul Edge.  Good one.

Modificata da Reidbynature, 22 marzo 2011 - 10:37 .

[Bann Duncan]

yogolol wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The same could be said for Orsino and the mages. As far as I am aware there is no right answer at the end of the game.

How? Orisino even says that he`ll allow her to search the Circle if she doesn`t kill them all but Meredith won`t listen to reason and wants the whole Circle killed.

Meredith is being controlled at the time by the aforementioned 'Soul Edge'  

[CRISIS1717]

I came to an entirely different conclusion. I believed even though Meredith was crazy the Templars were a necessary evil to keep order. For me it was a choice between order under a tyrannical ruler or chaos where apostates, abominations and demons run riot and then everyone would suffer.

[yogolol]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

I came to an entirely different conclusion. I believed even though Meredith was crazy the Templars were a necessary evil to keep order. For me it was a choice between order under a tyrannical ruler or chaos where apostates, abominations and demons run riot and then everyone would suffer.

The Templars could of been replaced easily from a different city, I think replacing Templars is a lot better than commiting genocide. I don`t believe that the circle would suddenly all turn into abominations if Templars were gone for a week.

[Suron]

because Meredith is at least driven mad by an evil object...as dumb as it is....Orsino on the other hand CHOOSES to become an abomination PROVING what Meredith saying is true..that NO MAGE can be trusted...

like someone said both sides are made out to be idiots..because BioWare tried to hard to blur the lines on the issue by making Meredith want to murder innocents and Orsino, and every other mage out there blood mages and/or abominations. Causing the ENTIRE thing to be trite

[JamesX]

The explination the game (Hawke) gives Merriel is that

The people of the city will be demanding justice/retribution for the death of their beloved Grand Cleric and kill all the mages anyways. You have no choice but to play damage control.

Either you help kill the mages, or lots more people will die as you stand idle (or support mages).

Flimsy, but at least there was some attempt at justification.

As for templars committing genocide  Nots ure about you, I was UTTERLY surprised when on my 2nd play through I sided with the Templars ... I walked into the Main Templar Hall at the beginning of the assault and my entire screen is filled with Abominations >.>;;; it is tons worse than the Circle of Ferealden and that one even Irving wasn't surprised that Gregor have sent for the Right of Annuelment.

Modificata da JamesX, 22 marzo 2011 - 10:54 .

[yogolol]

Suron wrote...

because Meredith is at least driven mad by an evil object...as dumb as it is....Orsino on the other hand CHOOSES to become an abomination PROVING what Meredith saying is true..that NO MAGE can be trusted...

You didn`t know at the time of making the decision that either of these things would happen.

Modificata da yogolol, 22 marzo 2011 - 10:52 .

[wulfsturm]

I think the entire point of the ending is that neither side was right in the end. Makes for a moral dilemma and all.

[Alyka]

The Angry One wrote...
One is an abomination waiting to happen, the other has been turned by Soul Edge.

I lol'd at that analogy.It does remind me of that.

The ending shows that neither Orsino nor Meredith is right and that the groups they have command over are the ones who have to suffer.And then you have the Chantry.But Anders just had to blow it up.
Destroying the one thing that is neutral.Both sides wind up realizing how corrupt their own group is.

Orsino turns into an abomination.The mages go; "Well that didn't work out.That was a stupid move."
Meredith gets corrupted by the blade.The Templars go: "The blade made her crazy.She was radical.That was a stupid move."
Anders blows up the Chantry.Everyone goes; "WTF!!!!???? You killed innocent people who had nothing to do with this crap! That was a stupid move."
Varric goes; "I'm sick of mages and templars."

Modificata da Alyka, 22 marzo 2011 - 10:58 .

[CRISIS1717]

yogolol wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

I came to an entirely different conclusion. I believed even though Meredith was crazy the Templars were a necessary evil to keep order. For me it was a choice between order under a tyrannical ruler or chaos where apostates, abominations and demons run riot and then everyone would suffer.

The Templars could of been replaced easily from a different city, I think replacing Templars is a lot better than commiting genocide. I don`t believe that the circle would suddenly all turn into abominations if Templars were gone for a week.

There already was corruption within the ranks of the mages. The mages could not keep their house in order because there was demonic influence and crazy blood mages. Who is going to stop a demon uprising? certainly not the mages. 

[JamesX]

wulfsturm wrote...

I think the entire point of the ending is that neither side was right in the end. Makes for a moral dilemma and all.

The sad part is in the end Cullen a Templar is the tempered one, while the mages and both leaders look the fool.

[Alyka]

JamesX wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

I think the entire point of the ending is that neither side was right in the end. Makes for a moral dilemma and all.

The sad part is in the end Cullen a Templar is the tempered one, while the mages and both leaders look the fool.

That was the point I was trying to make.The reaction Cullen and the Templars had after seeing Meredith turned to ash was astonishment.At first, I thought they were going to try and blame me but then they backed away.

[RazorrX]

Here is the thing, Yes it is obvious that Merideth is a nutcase at the end, however if you are looking at it from a many vs few angle - then siding with Knight Marshal Crazy pants is the logical thing to do. Say there are 300 mages in the tower with half being innocent children - there are thousands living in kirkwall and half of them probably children.

Side with the templars and you have a chance to stop the divine from cleansing the city. Yes if you are a mage it means you die too (annulment would be every mage in the city) but you would do it for the good of the many vs the few.

On a moral side - both were messed up, the question is who was the most messed up and why.

[yogolol]

RazorrX wrote...

Here is the thing, Yes it is obvious that Merideth is a nutcase at the end, however if you are looking at it from a many vs few angle - then siding with Knight Marshal Crazy pants is the logical thing to do. Say there are 300 mages in the tower with half being innocent children - there are thousands living in kirkwall and half of them probably children.

Side with the templars and you have a chance to stop the divine from cleansing the city. Yes if you are a mage it means you die too (annulment would be every mage in the city) but you would do it for the good of the many vs the few.

On a moral side - both were messed up, the question is who was the most messed up and why.

It wasn`t even clear that the Divine was going to show up, all we got was she was going to do something and wasn`t that DLC content? I don`t really think Bioware considers DLC stuff canon as nothing from Origins DLC showed up in DA2.

[MColes]

There's the right choice, and the correct choice. Correct.. they're both bonkers. Though Orsino proves he's a ****. It's a damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation.

But I agree completely - siding with Meredith to annul the mages is not the RIGHT thing to do. Killing innocents because of one psychopath's terrorist action isn't RIGHT.

[thesuperdarkone]

yogolol wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Here is the thing, Yes it is obvious that Merideth is a nutcase at the end, however if you are looking at it from a many vs few angle - then siding with Knight Marshal Crazy pants is the logical thing to do. Say there are 300 mages in the tower with half being innocent children - there are thousands living in kirkwall and half of them probably children.

Side with the templars and you have a chance to stop the divine from cleansing the city. Yes if you are a mage it means you die too (annulment would be every mage in the city) but you would do it for the good of the many vs the few.

On a moral side - both were messed up, the question is who was the most messed up and why.

It wasn`t even clear that the Divine was going to show up, all we got was she was going to do something and wasn`t that DLC content? I don`t really think Bioware considers DLC stuff canon as nothing from Origins DLC showed up in DA2.

 

FALSE!!! Sophia Dryden appears if you let her live in Origins and the Bartender mentions Shale killing all of Ferelden's pigeons in gossip, in addition to Awakening stuff.

[MColes]

There's also one of the companions from Leliana's song.

[MKDAWUSS]

I think if that story was allowed more development time, it wouldn't have required the plot crutches and could have been given reasonable (or should I say plausible) explanations for doing what they did. My thought was if they could have made blood magic a bit less evil (showing it did have beneficial purposes), there could have been an interesting and compelling conflict. The mages want to show that blood magic isn't evil in and of itself, the Templars are firm in their beliefs regarding the subject, and boom. Conflict. To even further spice things up, you could have had a Templar saved by a blood mage.

The Templar-Mage conflict had so much potential...

[MColes]

You say that like it's a past-tense. The whole point of DA2 was basically as a prologue to the REAL Templar-Mage conflict. The spark that ignites the fire.

[MKDAWUSS]

MColes wrote...

You say that like it's a past-tense. The whole point of DA2 was basically as a prologue to the REAL Templar-Mage conflict. The spark that ignites the fire.

But that spark could have had so much depth behind it. All it has is plot crutches and shallow devices.

[Fade22]

Siding with Meredith does not mean you kill innocent mages... I found it difficult as well but side with the Templers and see what happens... you're not neccesarily siding on the "evil" side.