4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

This is getting utterly absurd. It is a lawful act in a fantasy RPG. Real life has nothing to do with it. There are games out there that do far worse, as are movies and books.

Stop.  You obviously didn't read the post you quoted.

I recognize that games often have clearly evil choices.  Let me repeat this with special emphasis just for you:

I have no problem with this.  I have NO PROBLEM with a player picking a clearly evil choice as an evil choice for entertainment!

That is NOT what I am talking about.

My problem is when IN REAL LIFE, people try to tell me that a clearly evil choice in a game isn't.  That's when the alarm bells start ringing because if you start convincing youserlf that evil acts (or at least immoral/unethical acts) really are justified, it becomes a lot easier to do in the future...whether you are playing a game or not.

See the difference?

-Polaris

*Headdesk*

I can't believe this. Yes, I did read your post, and what I said applies. What happens in the world of DA is NOT the real world. It is viewed through the eyes of Hawke. A person who grew up there, and saw things that we would never see. Her choices are based on her experiences, her culturalization, her social values and her upbringing. Not mine. Not anyone else's.

It is not a clearly evil choice for her, it is a choice she has to make within minutes. She has no time to call a round-table, a comittee meeting, or a philosophical discussion. The whole of the city could go up in flames, and the Chantry has just been blown to bits by a mage. Yes, he wasn't a Circle mage, but that mattered little at that particular moment. All the fears and worries that the mundane population had came to be true.

In the Andrastian countries the RoA is a lawful choice. Meredith had the right to act, because the only person who could have put a stop to it just blew up with her Chantry.

To state that people who pick this are going to commit mass-murder in the real world is absolutely ignorant. I'm quite sure that all of us are mature enough to see the difference. If anyone is this unstable, that a video game would corrupt her or his morals, then that person is in danger of losing the hold on reality through any event. Be it video games, movies, books, or the ice-cream parlor stopped selling her/his favorite flavor.

Again. Picking the templar side (and therefore Meredith by default), is not evil. It is a lawful action, chosen by a pixel person that lives in another universe with a whole lot of different sets of morals, outlooks, and experiences. I don't have mages living in my home town. I have no clue what I would do if some, or even just one started down the destructive route. But one thing I can say is that I most likely would be scared half to death of them.

@ Mousestalker

Yeah, I know what you are saying. I'll be by your house later, and take care of that wall. I had this argument with him before and was called an immoral, rapist-supporting, whatnot person, so I just quit. But sometimes it's hard to bite your tongue. It hurts, ya know

Modifié par Sabriana, 03 mai 2011 - 08:36 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. If the devs had hidden it, it wouldn't have been in the game. The fact that you have to search for the enigma symbolizes that it isn't common knowledge that Kirkwall has such a weak veil. The fact that the enigma is even in the game, proves that the devs wants us to know, but also, that they want us to understand that it isn't common knowledge.

That isn't even close to true, you know.  Game worlds (be they Thedas, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or even Middle Earth) have established lore and established "rules" of the world that even the authors can't violate recklessly without completely destroying the immersion, continuity, and believablility of the world.  I promise you that all the Writers have a mini-bible that has the established "lore" of Thedas much of which we haven't seen.

Given that, the fact tha abominations come out of the ground, the fact that demons can sommon them and vice versa.  The fact that mages do go bad at an unusually high rate (although I am certain if we were allowed to see the FULL population of mages we'd find even in Kirkwall it's far lower than the game likes to pretend) are all contra-indicated by the pre-existing lore.  That means you either retcon (which is bad for the reasons I've already mentioned...and the writers and devs are already in hot water with their audience for the retconning that has been done), or you come up with an explaination.  The Enigma of Kirkwall IS that explaination.

It might not be common knowledge to the peasent of Kirkwall but it is essential information for the player if he's going to have anything like a balanced outlook....and the game makes this information (imho deliberately) hard to find.

And the more common occurence of Blood Mages than Templar abuse, may also be just that. Blood Mages are more common. Perhaps it is indeed the fairest presentation in the game. That the Tempalrs aren't the monsters you are always quick to declare them, and that Blood Magic is a dangerous and constant temptation for mages. How about that? No, what am I thinking? That would weaken your entire argument, so it must be false of course.

The Devs have already admitted that the protraryal of insane bloodmages was badly skewed and, and I quote, 'over the top".

-Polaris

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

At the beginning of the Dissent quest, as you come up to the Sewer entrance to the Gallows dungeons, Anders says, "Do not tell anyone about this entrance, it is a secret that has saved the lives of hundreds of mages." He doesn't tell you the time frame, so it could have been quite a number of years, but still that's a pretty big number and makes me think there's quite a few in the circle.

Meredith did want to raze the circle to the ground. If you talk to Cullen before the end game he says that Meredith has already requested the RoA. This is before Anders' destroys the Chantry. She finally decides to just do it when the Chantry blew up because she knew that the people of Kirkwall would support her after the fact once she told them about Anders.

Agreed that she did, but I still say that, given her eagerness to find an excuse to annul the Circle, I don't think that either Meredith or Cullen would have let the situation of hundreds of mages escaping the Gallows just pass.  If hundreds of mages have passed from the Galllows in the time frame that Anders has been in Kirkwall when he makes that statement--and thanks for reminding me of it, btw, I'd forgotten--which is only three years or so, four at the most, then I think that would be a high point of concern for people like Cullen and Meredith who wholeheartedly believe that mages can't be treated like people, lest they fireball something in a fit of pique.  I'd expect Meredith to use the fact that hundreds of mages are somehow escaping the Gallows as justification to annul the ones left before they escape too.  But that said, it is also possible that Anders meant that hundreds of mages had used the tunnels to escape over the lifetime of Kirkwall, not just his tenure.  But if hundreds of mages are escaping left and right and that's one of the reasons for Meredith's ever-increasing strict measures...why don't we see hear even a single mention of it?  Strikes me that hundreds of mages escaping the Gallows right under Templar noses would be a big enough priority for it to be a major topic of conversation.

[IanPolaris]

Sabriana wrote...

Again. Picking the templar side (and therefore Meredith by default), is not evil. It is a lawful action, chosen by a pixel person that lives in another universe with a whole lot of different sets of morals, outlooks, and experiences. I don't have mages living in my home town. I have no clue what I would do if some, or even just one started down the destructive route. But one thing I can say is that I most likely would be scared half to death of them.

Yes it is evil.  That doesn't make a player a bad person by picking it as long as they know it's the evil choice.  There are lots of games like that and I have no problem with it.

Where I have the problem is people (including Bioware writers) tell to tell me that an evil action isn't evil from their own (not in-character) point of view.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2011 - 08:40 .

[Sylvianus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

In the situation of Kirkwall, one comes to believe that mages can be corrupted overnight in complete innocence.
As much as I hesitate to confront the Knights Templar, as I did not doubt for a second that the obliteration of the Circle (something I had already made ​​in the first game) was the best solution. But again, I did not do it because I hate mages or whatever, they simply need a purge Kirkwall. It was the best solution.

This isn't the first time that I've read this argument, but we're not really informed about what the mages in the Gallows are that. That isn't to say we don't encounter some mages, but for the most part we meet only a small fraction of them - the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are never actually met, and this kind of thinking seems to attribute the actions of criminal mages onto the multitude of Circle mages we've never actually meet. Although we encounter a few mages, from villains like Grace to altruists like Bethany, it's still a fairly small and miniscule percentage of Circle mages that doesn't inform us about the mages we haven't met.

The Circle of Kirkwall likely has a larger percentage of men, women, and children living in its halls because it's the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches (with the Starkhaven Circle burned down years prior, and the mages from Starkhaven re-directed to the Gallows) and the myraid of mages inside the Gallows are never encountered by Hawke - the closest we get to seeing what Circle life is like is from Bethany's correspondence.

I don't think it was the best solution, because Meredith invoked it because of Anders' attack on the Chantry. It's clear that the incident was bad enough to spark a rebellion among the mages from the Circles across the entire continent of Thedas, and I'm certain that killing an entire population of Circle mages for something an apostate did played a role in that.

I agree with what you said.

The problem is that the decision must be taken from our experience in the game, character's experience, what we experienced with the mages for several years. To speculate, to imagine things in the present and dark situation is almost a luxury. Say that mages are mostly innocent without having seen the good side of what they are can be almost impossible. That's why I talk about the situation of Kirkwall, all mages are not stupid, but  Kirkwall really seems cursed. There is no global vision, just the black side.The vision of our character.

How not to think that a very large part of the Mages is corrupt ? Especially since many of them fled, fled not to only be free but also to organize what they call " resistance ". But this resistance can quickly become terrorists in a city already terrified. Seen with Anders, it is not taken away to the military, but for , citizens, innocent to the symbol.

That this divergence that everyone fears. All mages are not dangerous, yeah, but they can be other Anders power.
Kirkwall's circle seems totally chaotic, out of control, and it is from here that we must consider it as a real global threat, the individual cases is very difficult in this kind of unprecedented situation, which happens suddenly and brutally.

In seconds, you can say they are very powerful, and their capacity for harm is extremely dangerous. Powerful and vulnerable at the same time to the call demons. Kirkwall in this extreme situation was in danger, sorry for the innocent, but there are still sad damage at war. It required addressing the situation by eliminating entirely a camp, I chose one that still had the ability to restore order, whatever the price.

So yes, a decision that must be taken within a few seconds in an extreme situation without opportunities to flee, to round the corners. Whichever side one chooses, there will be blood. I can not believe that the circle of Kirkwall contain a majority of innocent after all that has been seen in the game, the scenes we witnessed.

My mother killed by a mage, the betrayal of Grace, each innocent mage become a demon, a plot that goes beyond the Templars, which even exceeds that Orsino has no more control over its mages, a faction working covertly in the circle and to the most dangerous of follies, freedom and will to confrontation in the same time. We know that freedom for mages, it's a fantasy, which may turn into a nightmare, as in the dark days of Empire Tévintide. Mages dominated the world with their armies of demons and abominations, enslaving humanity to their selfish desires.

I agree to say that the Templars are no longer their job, they were tyrannical, and I repeat I do not support then. But Anders forcing things, it is Anders who committed the irreparable and declared war by an unprecedented murder in extreme situation.

So who to choose, Mages or Knights Templar? Few seconds to decide.  So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion, because Anders has exceeded the limits, it showed that ultimately think of the Magi in a gentle, benign, and without liability led that they can betray us.

This is not necessarily a desire, is their vulnerability to the source of their power is at stake ?

And I must tell you that my choice is wrong, why ? Because I asked the Templars to save my sister. I showed selfish. So it is clear that this view is not good either. There is none.

But saving the circle because I know there are people like Bethny is also a selfish thought, given the threat they represent. Hawke must choose a camp that does not like, and save his personal situation. It's like that throughout the game

But Bethany is my sister, I saved her not because it is a mage, but because it's my sister and I love her, that's what makes the difference.

Lol what bunch of retarded crap. you say you use pragmatism and then continually use the word IF. Let me tell you something. Pragmatism is based on facts not emotion. and you make plenty of decisions on emotion.

P.S.  next time dont write walls of text with this kind crap and get to the point.

" So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion  "

What It's difficult to understand ?

I will not elaborate more to answer to you, because you have trouble with longer texts....

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. If the devs had hidden it, it wouldn't have been in the game. The fact that you have to search for the enigma symbolizes that it isn't common knowledge that Kirkwall has such a weak veil. The fact that the enigma is even in the game, proves that the devs wants us to know, but also, that they want us to understand that it isn't common knowledge.

And the more common occurence of Blood Mages than Templar abuse, may also be just that. Blood Mages are more common. Perhaps it is indeed the fairest presentation in the game. That the Tempalrs aren't the monsters you are always quick to declare them, and that Blood Magic is a dangerous and constant temptation for mages. How about that? No, what am I thinking? That would weaken your entire argument, so it must be false of course.

WTF is wrong with bloodmagic. its already proven that bloodmagic doesnt corrupt and is simply a powerful tool to be used. Also templars are monsters as will kill murder and wipe out all mages down to the last child to perform an annulment.

But thats not the worst thing they do. they cover up their misdeeds with a thin veneer of piety and say its maker will, So no templar can be judged by moral system . this makes the templars the real monster here. and not mages.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren,

It might be because hundreds of mages is a drop in the bucket compared to the population of the gallows which has both the Kirkwall AND Starkhaven mages by this time. If you actually look at the cut-scenes of the Gallows prison, it can hold thousands (perhaps even tens of thousands but that's pushing it) easy. Hundreds over the course of three years in a population of thousands is an annoyance but nothing more.

Also the Templars would keep this information very much to themselves because allowing it to get out would make them look weak and incompetant (they are incompetant...but let's not go there....)

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am using the definition given.  Just because 99% of a population dies, even if it's by a WMD does not rise to the level of genocide.  Genocide has a very specific meaning which I've posted.  The QUARIANS were guilty of attempted genocide by trying to 'turn off' an entire sentient species.  The Geth defended themselves. 

The death toll is not the defininng characteristic of genocide.  The systemitic targeting of groups for reduction/exinction is as the above definition makes clear.

If the Geth wanted to commit genocide on the Quarians, there wouldn't have been any Quarians left.

-Polaris

sys·tem·at·ic[/i]/ˌsistəˈmatik/Adjective: Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.
Ian,

Everybody knows that you cannot wipe out 99% of a resisting species spread across several planets without acting in a systematic fashion.  Even you know this.  Only an idiot could ever be persuaded otherwise.

Arguing it wasn't genocide because there are quarians left also absolves Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and all the rest.  You know that you don't need to kill 100% of a given group to be acting genocidally.  So does everybody else.  Only an idiot could ever be persuaded otherwise.

Basically you accuse the templars of genocide because you dislike them.  You excuse the geth of genocide because you like them.  You think your argument is clever but at its root it is really no more sophisticated than Same=Good/Other=Bad, and everything you say on this topic is coloured by your appalling lack of objectivity.  If you were consistent in your condemnation of genocide your charges might carry more weight, but clearly it's only genocide against certain groups you have a problem with.

-Zaysh

[DKJaigen]

Sylvianus wrote...

" So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion  "

What It's difficult to understand ?

I will not elaborate more to answer to you, because you have trouble with longer texts....

I find your morals rather repulsive and i rather not speak to you again.

p.s. i dont have problems with long text but your grammer just sucks and i had to read it several times to understand it. good thing you are already learning to keep things simple.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 03 mai 2011 - 08:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Again. Picking the templar side (and therefore Meredith by default), is not evil. It is a lawful action, chosen by a pixel person that lives in another universe with a whole lot of different sets of morals, outlooks, and experiences. I don't have mages living in my home town. I have no clue what I would do if some, or even just one started down the destructive route. But one thing I can say is that I most likely would be scared half to death of them.

Yes it is evil.  That doesn't make a player a bad person by picking it as long as they know it's the evil choice.  There are lots of games like that and I have no problem with it.

Where I have the problem is people (including Bioware writers) tell to tell me that an evil action isn't evil from their own (not in-character) point of view.

-Polaris

You realize some people don't believe in Good or Evil, right?

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Again. Picking the templar side (and therefore Meredith by default), is not evil. It is a lawful action, chosen by a pixel person that lives in another universe with a whole lot of different sets of morals, outlooks, and experiences. I don't have mages living in my home town. I have no clue what I would do if some, or even just one started down the destructive route. But one thing I can say is that I most likely would be scared half to death of them.

Yes it is evil.  That doesn't make a player a bad person by picking it as long as they know it's the evil choice.  There are lots of games like that and I have no problem with it.

Where I have the problem is people (including Bioware writers) tell to tell me that an evil action isn't evil from their own (not in-character) point of view.

-Polaris

You realize some people don't believe in Good or Evil, right?

Thats true all things are gray in the end.

[cdtrk65]

I sided with the templars; I played as a mage and a pro-mage as well. It wasn't an easy decision, considering I wanted to side with the mages. The templars have them in an iron grip to be sure.

90% of the mages meant in Kirkwall were bloodmages/abominations.

I still would've have sided with them until Anders blew up the chantry.

You can say I judged the whole circle based on one mans decision. However, I looked at his action as the tipping point on the scales toward siding with Meredith. However when Orisino concided allowing an inspection, again I thought to help the mages. Meredith pressed the issue, and I decided to stick with the templars.

However looking at the choice now, the fact that neither one of them backed down and Anders forced the issue by blowing up the chantry. I felt I needed to side with the templars, only because of Anders act.

Hawke said it best I believe by saying his hand were tied. It was either templars or rioters. Might as well let those equiped to handle it, and who is to say that the rioters would have stopped at Kirkwall. Much the way the mages did across all the other chantry's. Perhaps a small group in Kirkwall suffered for the rest of the circle?
--------------------

Personally I hated the ending point for the game, as it seemed to me that it ended at the climax rather than after. I for one hope Hawke will return to the battle with untied hands for DA3...

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

[sys·tem·at·ic[/i]/ˌsistəˈmatik/Adjective: Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.
Ian,

Everybody knows that you cannot wipe out 99% of a resisting species spread across several planets without acting in a systematic fashion.  Even you know this.  Only an idiot could ever be persuaded otherwise.

False.  There have been at least three asteroid strikes on earth that have caused sufficient climate change to wipe out 99% of all life on earth.  There was no plan.  It wasn't genocide.  It was a cosmic accident.

In the case of the Geth, the Geth were an integral part of the Quarian society so when the Quarians tried to commit genocide on the Geth, the Geth were figthing all the Quarians all at once.

Given that the Geth won, it's very easy to imagine a 99% death rate (from loss of habitat alone) withoug any extermination plan.  Indeed  the Geth LET THE QUARIANS GO. 

The Geth (and Legion makes this very plain) never wanted to destroy the creators, but note that every time the Creators contect them, the Creators want to destroy them.

Now the Heretics are a different matter......

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2011 - 08:50 .

[Sylvianus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

" So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion  "

What It's difficult to understand ?

I will not elaborate more to answer to you, because you have trouble with longer texts....

I find your morals rather repulsive and i rather not speak to you again.

yes that's what I thought. What are your emotions guide you, not mine. Pragmatism was not in question, was just how my character has been thought that got you upset.

Thank you, but I feel very well with my way of thinking. And that gives you repulsive to me neither hot nor cold.

Goodbye.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 mai 2011 - 08:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. If the devs had hidden it, it wouldn't have been in the game. The fact that you have to search for the enigma symbolizes that it isn't common knowledge that Kirkwall has such a weak veil. The fact that the enigma is even in the game, proves that the devs wants us to know, but also, that they want us to understand that it isn't common knowledge.

And the more common occurence of Blood Mages than Templar abuse, may also be just that. Blood Mages are more common. Perhaps it is indeed the fairest presentation in the game. That the Tempalrs aren't the monsters you are always quick to declare them, and that Blood Magic is a dangerous and constant temptation for mages. How about that? No, what am I thinking? That would weaken your entire argument, so it must be false of course.

WTF is wrong with bloodmagic. its already proven that bloodmagic doesnt corrupt and is simply a powerful tool to be used. Also templars are monsters as will kill murder and wipe out all mages down to the last child to perform an annulment.

But thats not the worst thing they do. they cover up their misdeeds with a thin veneer of piety and say its maker will, So no templar can be judged by moral system . this makes the templars the real monster here. and not mages.

I suppose the part where you have to drain the lifeforce of another person (or yourself) is rather dull when you can just mind control him to do so willingly?
Blood Magic is not just a powerful tool. It is a dangerous tool, and I have not yet seen anything to justify the risk of its use.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Again. Picking the templar side (and therefore Meredith by default), is not evil. It is a lawful action, chosen by a pixel person that lives in another universe with a whole lot of different sets of morals, outlooks, and experiences. I don't have mages living in my home town. I have no clue what I would do if some, or even just one started down the destructive route. But one thing I can say is that I most likely would be scared half to death of them.

Yes it is evil.  That doesn't make a player a bad person by picking it as long as they know it's the evil choice.  There are lots of games like that and I have no problem with it.

Where I have the problem is people (including Bioware writers) tell to tell me that an evil action isn't evil from their own (not in-character) point of view.

-Polaris

You realize some people don't believe in Good or Evil, right?

Yes and that's a problem in today's society but that's another unrelated topic.  Siding with the Templars IS the immoral choice if you prefer then.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

Sylvianus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

" So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion  "

What It's difficult to understand ?

I will not elaborate more to answer to you, because you have trouble with longer texts....

I find your morals rather repulsive and i rather not speak to you again.

yes that's what I thought. What are your emotions guide you, not mine. Pragmatism was not in question, was just how my character has been thought that got you upset.

Thank you, but I feel very well with my way of thinking. And that gives you repulsive to me neither hot nor cold.

Goodbye.

is this even english?

[Sylvianus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

" So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion  "

What It's difficult to understand ?

I will not elaborate more to answer to you, because you have trouble with longer texts....

I find your morals rather repulsive and i rather not speak to you again.

yes that's what I thought. What are your emotions guide you, not mine. Pragmatism was not in question, was just how my character has been thought that got you upset.

Thank you, but I feel very well with my way of thinking. And that gives you repulsive to me neither hot nor cold.

Goodbye.

is this even english?

Are you smart ?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I suppose the part where you have to drain the lifeforce of another person (or yourself) is rather dull when you can just mind control him to do so willingly?
Blood Magic is not just a powerful tool. It is a dangerous tool, and I have not yet seen anything to justify the risk of its use.

I can.  Bloodmagic is easily the most potent power source or a mage around and that can be either good or evil depending on the mage (same with any other source of power).  I can even see beneficial uses for mind-control (prisoners, interrogations?)  I promise you that it's far cleaner and nicer to rely on blood magic to interrogate a prisoner than use physicl torture for example.

There is no question that bloodmagic is dangerous and risky and should be carefully regulated by only the most trusted people...but bloodmagic is not evil and it doesn't make you a mindcontrolling villian that sucks the blood from innocents like a demented Vampire (or Huon).  Merrill uses bloodmagic for years and never uses any source of life energy except her own just as one example.

The chantry hates and preaches against bloodmagic, but I strongly suspect it's because bloodmagic threatens the Chantry's lyrium domination (and it's all too easy to tie it to the genuine evils of ancient Tevinter).

-Polaris

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

It is "hidden" information.  The fact that Kirkwall was built on a Tevinter Blood Alter where the Veil is almost gone is damned important information that we need to evaluate the situation fairly.  As such it should be given just as openly as Cullen's own speaches about mages.  It's not.  You have to hunt for all the codex entries and read all of them (which few players will do) and many of them are in very obsure places that are easy to miss.  Hiding this essential data is EXACTLY what the Devs are doing...and I'm not the only one that's said so.

-Polaris

EVERYONE in every discussion I've seen on the topic of Kirkwall has been well aware that Kirkwall is built on a Hellmouth.  It's no more hidden than any other random codex that isn't in obvious, plain view.  You might as well say that any codex that takes considerable effort to find was deliberately hidden, and the codices in question aren't the only ones that are difficult to find.  But I, personally, didn't have a huge problem finding them, and given that digging for codices isn't my thing, I have to protest your insistence that the devs went out of their way to hide the damn things for nefarious purposes, as you continually imply.  

Seriously.  That Kirkwall is situation in a place where massive death made the Veil extremely thin is common knowledge everywhere that I've looked, with not one person ever reacting with surprise at this fact, so I don't see how you can claim that it's deliberately hidden and most people aren't going to know about it because they just don't look for the codex entries.

Now, as to your other statements about the Devs deliberately skewing the presentation of mages.  I'm well aware of this, having learned of it elsewhere, from people who were discussing how difficult they found it to side with the mages without resorting to your depth of paranoia.  The part that you're leaving out, because it doesn't fit in with your apparent belief that the Devs are deliberately trying to subvert the morals of their gaming audience, is that the Devs did it for reasons that have frack-all to do with the story.  They did it because in Origins, they noticed that most people were siding with the mages, and because a more 50/50 split between Templars and Mages encourages re-play value, they wanted to try to encourage more people to side with the templars in DA2.  I suppose they overcompensated, although personally I didn't find anything all that skewed, from a story angle.  But the Devs did it for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the bloody story and everything to do with the game mechanics and the business of selling a video game for profit!

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. If the devs had hidden it, it wouldn't have been in the game. The fact that you have to search for the enigma symbolizes that it isn't common knowledge that Kirkwall has such a weak veil. The fact that the enigma is even in the game, proves that the devs wants us to know, but also, that they want us to understand that it isn't common knowledge.

And the more common occurence of Blood Mages than Templar abuse, may also be just that. Blood Mages are more common. Perhaps it is indeed the fairest presentation in the game. That the Tempalrs aren't the monsters you are always quick to declare them, and that Blood Magic is a dangerous and constant temptation for mages. How about that? No, what am I thinking? That would weaken your entire argument, so it must be false of course.

WTF is wrong with bloodmagic. its already proven that bloodmagic doesnt corrupt and is simply a powerful tool to be used. Also templars are monsters as will kill murder and wipe out all mages down to the last child to perform an annulment.

But thats not the worst thing they do. they cover up their misdeeds with a thin veneer of piety and say its maker will, So no templar can be judged by moral system . this makes the templars the real monster here. and not mages.

I suppose the part where you have to drain the lifeforce of another person (or yourself) is rather dull when you can just mind control him to do so willingly?

Irrelevant a mage can fireball a village. and yet you dont consider that evil . No doubt you would consider an AK-47 evil simply because shoots bigger bullets then a m-16

Blood Magic is not just a powerful tool. It is a dangerous tool, and I have not yet seen anything to justify the risk of its use.

All magic is dangerous. But all magic should be mastered so they do not become dangerous. The best way to fend of such things is either absolute knowledge or absolute ignorance. Because absolute ignorance is not an option i vote for absolute knowledge.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 03 mai 2011 - 08:59 .

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

[sys·tem·at·ic[/i]/ˌsistəˈmatik/Adjective: Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.
Ian,

Everybody knows that you cannot wipe out 99% of a resisting species spread across several planets without acting in a systematic fashion.  Even you know this.  Only an idiot could ever be persuaded otherwise.

False.  There have been at least three asteroid strikes on earth that have caused sufficient climate change to wipe out 99% of all life on earth.  There was no plan.  It wasn't genocide.  It was a cosmic accident.

False analogy, you cunning fox you.  Try and figure out why: we all have already.  Hint: "Earth" is not "several planets".

IanPolaris wrote...
In the case of the Geth, the Geth were an integral part of the Quarian society so when the Quarians tried to commit genocide on the Geth, the Geth were figthing all the Quarians all at once.

Yep.  All those quarian children and non combatants were probably terrifying to your average robotic soldier.  Do you really believe this tosh, or do you just hope others will?

IanPolaris wrote...
Given that the Geth won, it's very easy to imagine a 99% death rate (from loss of habitat alone) withoug any extermination plan.  Indeed  the Geth LET THE QUARIANS GO.  

Putting it in capitals doesn't make it any less idiotic, nor in fact any less repugnant as an argument in defence of genocide.  "Indeed Hitler LET THE JEWS GO."  See?  Despicable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Again. Picking the templar side (and therefore Meredith by default), is not evil. It is a lawful action, chosen by a pixel person that lives in another universe with a whole lot of different sets of morals, outlooks, and experiences. I don't have mages living in my home town. I have no clue what I would do if some, or even just one started down the destructive route. But one thing I can say is that I most likely would be scared half to death of them.

Yes it is evil.  That doesn't make a player a bad person by picking it as long as they know it's the evil choice.  There are lots of games like that and I have no problem with it.

Where I have the problem is people (including Bioware writers) tell to tell me that an evil action isn't evil from their own (not in-character) point of view.

-Polaris

You realize some people don't believe in Good or Evil, right?

Yes and that's a problem in today's society but that's another unrelated topic.  Siding with the Templars IS the immoral choice if you prefer then.

-Polaris

No it is not. I find it extremely immoral to compromise an entire continent, just on some whimsical cowardice of not having the guts to potentially kill an innocent. There are Blood Mages within the Circle, that is fact. There are innocents within the Circle, that is sadly also facts. The city of Kirkwall, is full of innocents, and I will not compromise them, for some vaunted illusion, of an unblemished moral highground.
If I had to kill an innocent, to keep a hundred innocents safe, I would do so. I may go to hell for that, so be it, but I would do so in the knowledge that those hundred were saved.
Morality, Good, Evil, they are all a luxury which can't be afforded when the real work has to be done.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It is "hidden" information.  The fact that Kirkwall was built on a Tevinter Blood Alter where the Veil is almost gone is damned important information that we need to evaluate the situation fairly.  As such it should be given just as openly as Cullen's own speaches about mages.  It's not.  You have to hunt for all the codex entries and read all of them (which few players will do) and many of them are in very obsure places that are easy to miss.  Hiding this essential data is EXACTLY what the Devs are doing...and I'm not the only one that's said so.

-Polaris

EVERYONE in every discussion I've seen on the topic of Kirkwall has been well aware that Kirkwall is built on a Hellmouth.  It's no more hidden than any other random codex that isn't in obvious, plain view.  You might as well say that any codex that takes considerable effort to find was deliberately hidden, and the codices in question aren't the only ones that are difficult to find.  But I, personally, didn't have a huge problem finding them, and given that digging for codices isn't my thing, I have to protest your insistence that the devs went out of their way to hide the damn things for nefarious purposes, as you continually imply.  

The discussion boards is not a good sample population of the gamers playing DA2, but you should know that.  It's self-selecting for one and what one individual posts quickly spreads to the readers.  That's far from assured from the population of gamers as a whole.

Seriously.  That Kirkwall is situation in a place where massive death made the Veil extremely thin is common knowledge everywhere that I've looked, with not one person ever reacting with surprise at this fact, so I don't see how you can claim that it's deliberately hidden and most people aren't going to know about it because they just don't look for the codex entries.

The people here are not representative.  IN THE GAME, this is critical information that needed to be shown and wasn't.  It's common knowledge on these boards (but probably not the players as a whole) now but that's because we've had a month as a community to pick the game apart.  It sure wasn't known or easy to find when you were playing for that very first time and didn't know how it would turn out....and that tends to color your perceptions for all future games.

Now, as to your other statements about the Devs deliberately skewing the presentation of mages.  I'm well aware of this, having learned of it elsewhere, from people who were discussing how difficult they found it to side with the mages without resorting to your depth of paranoia.  The part that you're leaving out, because it doesn't fit in with your apparent belief that the Devs are deliberately trying to subvert the morals of their gaming audience, is that the Devs did it for reasons that have frack-all to do with the story.  They did it because in Origins, they noticed that most people were siding with the mages, and because a more 50/50 split between Templars and Mages encourages re-play value, they wanted to try to encourage more people to side with the templars in DA2.  I suppose they overcompensated, although personally I didn't find anything all that skewed, from a story angle.  But the Devs did it for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the bloody story and everything to do with the game mechanics and the business of selling a video game for profit!

You realize you've just repeated what I've been saying for pages and pages now and admitted it.  The Devs skewed the information to encourage people to side with the Templars more often.  This had a definate effect on the story, but the fact is to present the supposed "choice" as a grey one, the Devs essentially had to lie (or at least so badly skew the information they may as well have been lying).

-Polaris

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren,

It might be because hundreds of mages is a drop in the bucket compared to the population of the gallows which has both the Kirkwall AND Starkhaven mages by this time. If you actually look at the cut-scenes of the Gallows prison, it can hold thousands (perhaps even tens of thousands but that's pushing it) easy. Hundreds over the course of three years in a population of thousands is an annoyance but nothing more.

Also the Templars would keep this information very much to themselves because allowing it to get out would make them look weak and incompetant (they are incompetant...but let's not go there....)

-Polaris

How many slaves the Gallows was built to hold is a separate matter from how many mages are housed in it during Hawke's tenure in Kirkwall.  With anyone else, I'd hope this wouldn't need to be pointed out, but since it's you, I guess it has to be.

It's been suggested in other threads that the population of mages against the overall population is proportionally very small.  Weren't you involved in one of those discussions?  Anyway, even if we are talking about an usually large number of mages in Kirkwall due to their also housing Starkhaven's population, that doesn't speak to the question of the physical number of mages actually present.  I honestly don't think we're talking about a very massive number, especially given that we'd probably need a comparable number of templars as a result.  I don't see a few dozen templars being able to handle hundreds or thousands of mages, for instance.