4350 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders isn't jesting with Merrill when he asks her if she learned about blood magic by accident, EmperorSahlertz. He doesn't even jest with her when she's making a joke about his former cat being knighted, and I don't see why he would be joking about blood magic when he's clearly very anti-blood magic throughout the entire storyline. He's serious almost all the time, and I don't see why you keep spreading this misinformation every chance you get about blood magic. You're not correct in stating it can only be learned from demons when we see, time and again, that it can be used without the mages involved learning it from demons.

Are you being dense on purpose?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

Ever see a person on a PCP high?  Scarey.  Again, you are deliberately viewing with alarm over soemthing even you admit is RARE and using it to treat an entire group of people as sub-human.

If you can't see that's not only wrong, but pragmagically stupid (tickling the dragon) then you are beyond help.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you mean Emperor, would I mind walking down the streets full of people with weapons openly carried, the answer is NO. In fact in Alaska I've done and seen it (not on the military base where I was but in the neighboring town).

An openly armed society is a polite one I've found. Low burglery rates too.....

-Polaris

I have hands and i can kill with it. mages are simply born with more tools to kill.
Im guessing you were armed too, and even then, I doubt you all went about with your weapons drawn, lock'n'loaded, mages do that.
If "everyone" is armed, the playing field is even. However, everyone can't be mages.

Nice.  Someone invalidated your analogy by telling you what you didn't expect to read, and so now you're having to change in order to maintain its relevance.

What? He didn't invalidate. He brought additional data. The analogy adapts.
To make it easier for you: Does a mage fear walking amongst mages? No. Does an armed man fear walking amongst armed men? No. Does unarmed men fear an armed man walking amongst them (an obviously armed)? Yes. Does unarmed men fear a mage walking amongst them? Yes. Do they have a reason to? Yes.

Every human being is dangerous. In this instance is that some humans are simply born with bigger guns.

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

I have hands and i kill people with it. I nearly did once.I hit a guy with such force on the chest that his ribs broke and punctured his lungs.

Congratulations. Did you turn into an Abomination and destroyed your hometown afterwards? If not, I fail to see the relevance.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 mai 2011 - 09:42 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

Let's lock up all martial arts masters for public safety then.

Booya!

-Polaris

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

what about cases of people becoming possessed by demons? In the real world I mean, if one chooses to believe those stories.

Frankly, I have no clue whether to call it a good story or call it something that can indeed happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

Ever see a person on a PCP high?  Scarey.  Again, you are deliberately viewing with alarm over soemthing even you admit is RARE and using it to treat an entire group of people as sub-human.

If you can't see that's not only wrong, but pragmagically stupid (tickling the dragon) then you are beyond help.

-Polaris

Wrong? No. Tragic? Yes.

They are thankfully rare. But they have a potential for destruction which is unmatched. That is why the Circles are neccesary. And that is why mages are feared.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders isn't jesting with Merrill when he asks her if she learned about blood magic by accident, EmperorSahlertz. He doesn't even jest with her when she's making a joke about his former cat being knighted, and I don't see why he would be joking about blood magic when he's clearly very anti-blood magic throughout the entire storyline. He's serious almost all the time, and I don't see why you keep spreading this misinformation every chance you get about blood magic. You're not correct in stating it can only be learned from demons when we see, time and again, that it can be used without the mages involved learning it from demons.

Are you being dense on purpose?

Are you being a stubborn jackass* on purpose?




*donkey, because they are stubborn.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

Let's lock up all martial arts masters for public safety then.

Booya!

-Polaris

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

what about cases of people becoming possessed by demons? In the real world I mean, if one chooses to believe those stories.

Frankly, I have no clue whether to call it a good story or call it something that can indeed happen.

I don't even know what your point was.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders isn't jesting with Merrill when he asks her if she learned about blood magic by accident, EmperorSahlertz. He doesn't even jest with her when she's making a joke about his former cat being knighted, and I don't see why he would be joking about blood magic when he's clearly very anti-blood magic throughout the entire storyline. He's serious almost all the time, and I don't see why you keep spreading this misinformation every chance you get about blood magic. You're not correct in stating it can only be learned from demons when we see, time and again, that it can be used without the mages involved learning it from demons.

Are you being dense on purpose?

Are you being a stubborn jackass* on purpose?




*donkey, because they are stubborn.

When people wants to stay in ignorance out of their own stupidity, it bothers me. I want to know wether he really think he is right, or if he is actually just being a dick.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 mai 2011 - 09:46 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are thankfully rare. But they have a potential for destruction which is unmatched. That is why the Circles are neccesary. And that is why mages are feared.

Really?  Arlathan, the Ancient Tevinter Empire, Kingdom of the Dales, Modern Dalish, Rivvani, Avvaar, and Chasind not to mention other Andrastian Cultists offshoots (see Haven) all don't agree with you and function (or functioned) perfectly well without circles.

I think the Chantry deliberately views and maginifies an issue with alarm so it can justify controlling and dehumanizing all mages for it's own power and political gain.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

 

 "Pure goodness?"  Please.  Even generally decent people are never pure.  Let's not start pretending that being a morally good person means that the sun shines out your ass.

* sight *

For the Love of The God, it is simply human, and full of goodness. She cares the plight of refugees, etc..

And otherwise it exactly the same thing. The same thing.  

Everything you say makes no sense, no cohesion actually. 

You not assume your line, or you do not know what you say. You follow the same logic as the pro-Templars. You do not realize or did you refuse to admit it.

 You see everything in black on the other side. Innocent people are on one side, the evil other.
You refuse to admit a lot of things.
You have a biased point of view on religion, and your point of view is extremist mage, so it gives less inclined to listen. No Neutral or objective reasoning. Never.

You endorse anything and everything in your camp. And condemns everything and anything when it's on the other side.

Sorry but it is useless to discuss between us.

I think that various discussions I've had in general and in particular with Lob and Polaris puts the lie to the claim that I see everything in black and white, or that I'm extremist mage.  I'm probably one of the most objective people you'll ever meet.  I'm certainly NOT neutral, because by and large I consider neutrality to be a morally bankrupt position in most cases. 

As for my having a biased viewpoint on religion...well, no.  Not precisely.  I have a very biased opinion against religio-political institutions, which is by no means the same thing, regardless of what many apologists for organized religion would like to believe.  

Now if you'll excuse me, I've an appointment to get my hair dyed, have my face aged, and forge a new driver's license so I can go on a shooting rampage without being held accountable for it.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When people wants to stay in ignorance out of their own stupidity, it bothers me. I want to know wether he really think he is right, or if he is actually just being a dick.

I think the irony of what you just said is completely lost on you.  Enough said.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

..........................


It should be pretty clear what my point was, but whatever...



There are stories of people becoming hosts to demons in the real world. Those stories you hear of Lucifer's allies inhabiting kids and making them float in mid-air. Exorcisms being the only solution.


Honestly, I don't know whether or not to believe them. I'm not that much of a believer in Christianity anymore, but that's neither here nor there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are thankfully rare. But they have a potential for destruction which is unmatched. That is why the Circles are neccesary. And that is why mages are feared.

Really?  Arlathan, the Ancient Tevinter Empire, Kingdom of the Dales, Modern Dalish, Rivvani, Avvaar, and Chasind not to mention other Andrastian Cultists offshoots (see Haven) all don't agree with you and function (or functioned) perfectly well without circles.

I think the Chantry deliberately views and maginifies an issue with alarm so it can justify controlling and dehumanizing all mages for it's own power and political gain.

-Polaris

Do you know how Arlathan handled the abominations issue? Do you know how Haven did? Do you know how the Dales did? Do you know anyhting about those cultures except for their names?

Haven is a small isolated village, and Abominations are rare. It could have been a hudnred years ago an Abomination last "visited". The Rivaini sure as hell have issues with Abominations. I doubt their seers are infallible, so some of them are bound to screw up once in a while. Arlathan and the Dales are zero marks, we know nothing of how they handled anything. The only thing we know is that magic was prevalent in their societies.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

..........................


It should be pretty clear what my point was, but whatever...



There are stories of people becoming hosts to demons in the real world. Those stories you hear of Lucifer's allies inhabiting kids and making them float in mid-air. Exorcisms being the only solution.


Honestly, I don't know whether or not to believe them. I'm not that much of a believer in Christianity anymore, but that's neither here nor there.

Are you saying that you don't believe in Abominations in Thedas? Or that the mentally ill from our world are somehow proof of Abominations aren't that big a threat?

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When people wants to stay in ignorance out of their own stupidity, it bothers me. I want to know wether he really think he is right, or if he is actually just being a dick.

I think the irony of what you just said is completely lost on you.  Enough said.

-Polaris

It really is. Since I am not wrong in stating demons are needed to learn Blood Magic. So far all the proof we got speaks for it. Nothing goes against it. Perhaps down the line I will be proven wrong. Untill then though...

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Re the Reaver.  No we don't.  We know that a dragonblood slurpee can be used to gain the Reaver specialization, but we don't know if that's required.

"A true reaver has tasted the ritually prepared blood of a dragon. It is more than a state of mind. These fearsome warriors revel in death, regaining energy from the suffering of their foes".

In Awakening, they included a tome for it from a dwarf bartender. Which doesn't make much sense if you think about it, same reason why there's a tome for being a Templar, a Spirit Warrior, a Keeper and such.

There are enough canonical sources about bloodmagic that tell us that Demons are NOT required to learn bloodmagic either.  There are books (we see examples of such not only on Irving's Desk but the

I heavily doubt the tomes in the Circle are "How to use Blood Magic: For Enchanters edition", especially when such magic is banned from the Circle itself. 

scrolls of banaster)

Reading the Scrolls of Banastor... it doesn't seem to be supporting what you're saying.

"To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."

Jowan did not lean bloodmagic from a demon either....

We don't know how he learned it, all we know is that he did learn it.

and it seems clear to me that Uldred taught several and Uldred wasn't always a demon either.

Uldred was summoning demons, it wouldn't be surprising if he used them to teach others.

[TEWR]

How the hell did you draw those two things from my post?

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry teaches that Abominations are rare. It is their potential for destruction which are to be feared.

First off, the Chantry is not an objective bystander in this teaching - the derive just about all of their power from the perpetuating of this idea.  So you might take it with a grain of salt - or a dump truck's worth...

Second, do we have evidence of mages being completely blindly possessed by demons with no culpability at all?  I mean, ok, you can say everyone has weaknesses - like Connor for his father and such - but do we know that a demon can just poof take over at will?

You seem to be arguing from the point that mages are worse than just someone who can kill 70 people because they can be walking down the street thinking about buying a scented candle and then suddenly POOF, pride demon in market square. 

The cases that I remember (and you're welcome to point out something I miss) involve either untrained mages not knowing just what it is they are agreeing to, or mages pushed to some extreme by greed or fear or loss. 

Conner:  near death of his father
Quentin:  death of his wife
Taraohne:  power hungry madwoman

etc.

The game doesn't at all downplay that mages can become or summon abominations, but I'm not sure I see the evidence for this happen to random mages just cooking dinner.  Demons may well lurk around and wait for a mage to be in a vulnerable position, but it really doesn't seem to be just a matter of *snap* you're an abomination.

Do you have a concrete reason to reject a system of for lack of a better term, boarding schools, where young mages go as soon as they show their power to be trained to recognize and reject demonic influence.  Once they pass some kind of fair test of their self control they graduate and go about their business.

Perhaps you could instead ponder how lovely it would be to have magical healers practicing freely in each village?  Thugs kept under control by mage constables?  Land cleared for farming by well placed infernos...  Magic is a tool that can be used for great good too.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

Ever see a person on a PCP high?  Scarey.  Again, you are deliberately viewing with alarm over soemthing even you admit is RARE and using it to treat an entire group of people as sub-human.

If you can't see that's not only wrong, but pragmagically stupid (tickling the dragon) then you are beyond help.

-Polaris

Wrong? No. Tragic? Yes.

They are thankfully rare. But they have a potential for destruction which is unmatched. That is why the Circles are neccesary. And that is why mages are feared.

No, it's why a mage-specific police force is necessary.  Nowhere has it been demonstrated that locking mages away in Circles is necessary.  What has been shown is that it is oftentimes the very practice of locking up mages that provokes them into making pacts with demons or resorting to blood magic.    

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

..........................


It should be pretty clear what my point was, but whatever...



There are stories of people becoming hosts to demons in the real world. Those stories you hear of Lucifer's allies inhabiting kids and making them float in mid-air. Exorcisms being the only solution.


Honestly, I don't know whether or not to believe them. I'm not that much of a believer in Christianity anymore, but that's neither here nor there.

Oh, the stories I could tell...(practicing pagan here.  Which makes the anti-religion label rather funny, but there you go).

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you mean Emperor, would I mind walking down the streets full of people with weapons openly carried, the answer is NO. In fact in Alaska I've done and seen it (not on the military base where I was but in the neighboring town).

An openly armed society is a polite one I've found. Low burglery rates too.....

-Polaris

I have hands and i can kill with it. mages are simply born with more tools to kill.
Im guessing you were armed too, and even then, I doubt you all went about with your weapons drawn, lock'n'loaded, mages do that.
If "everyone" is armed, the playing field is even. However, everyone can't be mages.

Nice.  Someone invalidated your analogy by telling you what you didn't expect to read, and so now you're having to change in order to maintain its relevance.

What? He didn't invalidate. He brought additional data. The analogy adapts.
To make it easier for you: Does a mage fear walking amongst mages? No. Does an armed man fear walking amongst armed men? No. Does unarmed men fear an armed man walking amongst them (an obviously armed)? Yes. Does unarmed men fear a mage walking amongst them? Yes. Do they have a reason to? Yes.

Every human being is dangerous. In this instance is that some humans are simply born with bigger guns.

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

I have hands and i kill people with it. I nearly did once.I hit a guy with such force on the chest that his ribs broke and punctured his lungs.

Congratulations. Did you turn into an Abomination and destroyed your hometown afterwards? If not, I fail to see the relevance.

Let me tell you this im a student of karate combined this with my strenght its very easy for me kill someone. One of the main reason i stay away from drugs or strong drink because im dangerous if i lose control. By your very definition
i should be locked up as i could kill a lot of people if i lose control. And thats always a possibility you never know what happens.The problem of the mages is not how dangerous they are but about discipline. Locking them up serves no purpose. Teaching them how to control themselves however is.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

Ever see a person on a PCP high?  Scarey.  Again, you are deliberately viewing with alarm over soemthing even you admit is RARE and using it to treat an entire group of people as sub-human.

If you can't see that's not only wrong, but pragmagically stupid (tickling the dragon) then you are beyond help.

-Polaris

Wrong? No. Tragic? Yes.

They are thankfully rare. But they have a potential for destruction which is unmatched. That is why the Circles are neccesary. And that is why mages are feared.

No, it's why a mage-specific police force is necessary.  Nowhere has it been demonstrated that locking mages away in Circles is necessary.  What has been shown is that it is oftentimes the very practice of locking up mages that provokes them into making pacts with demons or resorting to blood magic.    

YOu gather them all in one place so that you know where they are. If you had one mage in the ass-end of nowhere, there could go months before anyone even learned that he had gone bonkers, and several more months before there would be responded. It is simply a logistical hell to spread the mages out around the world.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Are you being dense on purpose?

If it's noted that historians argue whether the Old God Dumat taught blood magic to the Tevinter Magister or if it was Arlathan elves who taught the Tevinter Magisters how to use blood magic, then it tells us that demons aren't required to become a blood mage. I don't see why you argue this when the lore contradicts your theory on the issue.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

..........................


It should be pretty clear what my point was, but whatever...



There are stories of people becoming hosts to demons in the real world. Those stories you hear of Lucifer's allies inhabiting kids and making them float in mid-air. Exorcisms being the only solution.


Honestly, I don't know whether or not to believe them. I'm not that much of a believer in Christianity anymore, but that's neither here nor there.

Oh, the stories I could tell...(practicing pagan here.  Which makes the anti-religion label rather funny, but there you go).

Oooh I want to hear them! what paganistic stuff do you practice?

[Lewie]

Peoples perceptions are always different and many parts of the game are *blank spots* that you fill in yourself. Last playthrough killing the abominations in the gallows and siding with the mages left me dissatisfied somewhat. 

Still, the room with a desire demon being worshipped by both templars and mages.. what is that about.

Imagining the horrors of inside the circle, based mainly on mages from starkhaven wasn't enough reason, a few dodgy templars wasn't enough reason, anders because he had basically lied and i didn't know for sure who i was dealing with, wasn't enough reason. I simply couldn't envisage all these abuses based on a few comments when everyone was plotting to some degree. Templars have really been portrayed as pure evil yet in the gallows you talk to perfectly normal men and women templars who even complain about Meredith.

Maybe im more inclined to see evidence with my eyes than take the word of people who are insighting rebellions all over. It could simply be just that. I have also wondered is it templars or mages we are really fighting or demons. Its safe to say they were having a field day.

Modifié par louise101, 13 mai 2011 - 10:03 .