4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

Funny how certain justifications get ignored when they suddenly make a person's own arguments look bad.

You made me laugh very hard, thank you. I needed it, I lacked my daily dose of hypocricy.

[Lewie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Still, the room with a desire demon being worshipped by both templars and mages.. what is that about.

You can view it in three lights:
These Templar are helping the mages, the mages are summoning the demon.
These Templar are thralls of the mages, the mages are summoning the demon.
These Templar and mages are thralls of the demon.

Number three seems more realistic considering they attack you regardless of what side you're on.

Or all of the above. Do i win? 

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

2: To gather all mages in one place to make it easier to find them, when one of them goes bonkers.

Perhaps you could correct this to say "most" mages?  They obviously don't get them all to start with and then there's the ones who escape somehow.  Still, Kirkwall seems to be generaly standing with a few random free mages in it until Anders + Meredith = giant fiasco.

Well I was speaking of an ideal, more than in praksis.

If locking away all mages truly is the ideal, then I see no reason not to just find a way to detect mage talent at birth and drown all such infants.  And just drown all infants born to families known to carry magic.  I honestly see that as a far more humane solution than locking people up for potentialities.  Of course, then you'd have to worry about appeasing all those poor parents who take issue with having their children murdered.  But if you can justify the one on account of the greater good, you can damn well justify the other...

[IanPolaris]

The scrolls of bannester themselves confirm that to SUMMON DEMONS you need to use bloodmagic. That's all (and it's not a remarkable revelation). The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

However, when you get the quest, you DO learn from the person that gives you the quest (via Mage's Collective message) that the Scrolls of Bannester can be used to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

...?

Ugh. Great. The refusal to refresh again.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

Is this a trick question?

I get the feeling this is what debates in Thedas would be like. People would be arguing for a system that has caused a continental revolt among all the Circles of Magi, and is putting the world on the brink of war.

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...This thread should be locked for the religious discussion alone.  (religion that doesn't involve the chantry). 

Seriously leave it alone before people start getting offended and pissy. And I say this as an atheist.  

References to real-world religion have been sprinkled throughout this thread since around page 20 at least, and we've all managed to keep it more or less civil.

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Let's not give them a reason to close the thread. 

And I've been offended by some of what people have been saying. I just kept it to myself. Just stop it. 

I'm well aware of the site rules.  I also know that some degree of mention of those topics is inevitable, especially in discussions as long as this one.  I haven't seen one thread that manages to completely avoid those topics altogether.  And I gotta wonder what falls under the "etc." category. 

But fair enough, I don't want this thread to be shut down any more than you do.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

-Polaris

In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world. 

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A mage don't have to summon demons to make contact with them. Try again.

There is zero evidence that Jowan even contacted a demon.  He seems very ignorant of demons in general in that way and we DO know that the circle tower had bloodmagic books.

There are all sorts of indications in the game that you can learn bloodmagic the conventional way(s) as well as learning from a demon.  All the evidence that's been presented to the contrary hasn't actually said what others have claimed it said.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls of bannester themselves confirm that to SUMMON DEMONS you need to use bloodmagic. That's all (and it's not a remarkable revelation). The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

However, when you get the quest, you DO learn from the person that gives you the quest (via Mage's Collective message) that the Scrolls of Bannester can be used to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

......... Since your comprehensive skills aren't up to snuff.
"In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."
It very, very clearly states that the contact of demons are required to learn blood magic. And the scrolls are used for learning BLood Magic. They teach you exactly what you need to start learning blood magic. To contact demons.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

-Polaris

In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world. 

Yep.  Doesn't prove what you think it does.  It proves that Demons are attracted to blood and blood can be used to deal with demons.  It also proves that demons are a shortcut for learning magic.

In short it proves you CAN learn bloodmagic from demons (gee we knew that) but not that you MUST learn bloodmagic from demons.  See the difference?

It does along with the other scrolls show that to deliberately summon demons and deliberately rip the veil (rather than accideentally tearing it), bloodmagic is required.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls of bannester themselves confirm that to SUMMON DEMONS you need to use bloodmagic. That's all (and it's not a remarkable revelation). The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

However, when you get the quest, you DO learn from the person that gives you the quest (via Mage's Collective message) that the Scrolls of Bannester can be used to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

......... Since your comprehensive skills aren't up to snuff.
"In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."
It very, very clearly states that the contact of demons are required to learn blood magic. And the scrolls are used for learning BLood Magic. They teach you exactly what you need to start learning blood magic. To contact demons.

Nope.  You might want to brush up on that reading comprehension yourself.  You are letting your biases influence what you think a passage says vs what it actually says.

It SAYS that you can learn bloodmagic by appealing to demons.  It doesn't say you HAVE to.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh.. I see what is happening. It isn't that you can't admit being wrong. It is that you can't admit that I am right...

[Dave of Canada]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh.. I see what is happening. It isn't that you can't admit being wrong. It is that you can't admit that I am right...

It's a funny feeling, isn't it?

[Ryzaki]

Ah well.

Patch 1.03 needs to hurry up so I can have Anders heal me why I'm doing the RoA. I'm lonely without him. Bethany doesn't heal as well.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mai 2011 - 10:39 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh.. I see what is happening. It isn't that you can't admit being wrong. It is that you can't admit that I am right...

No.  I can actually read what is printed WITHOUT inserting my opinion into it.  The scroll entry as written simply does not prove your case.  Sorry.

-Polaris

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls of bannester themselves confirm that to SUMMON DEMONS you need to use bloodmagic. That's all (and it's not a remarkable revelation). The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

However, when you get the quest, you DO learn from the person that gives you the quest (via Mage's Collective message) that the Scrolls of Bannester can be used to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

[Ryzaki]

...How does one get chased from Tevinter?

What the hell was she doing? Freeing slaves?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh.. I see what is happening. It isn't that you can't admit being wrong. It is that you can't admit that I am right...

It's a funny feeling, isn't it?

Well. I think it is about time I wash my hands of them. If they want to stay as ignorant as always, then so be it. Can't say I didn't try. They will be proven wrong in time, by an other, or by the game itself.

Honestly this has been a pointless debate since page eight. And it is now getting both stale and vile. They aren't changing and neither am I.

See y'all in the next Templar vs. mage thread.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 mai 2011 - 10:43 .

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls of bannester themselves confirm that to SUMMON DEMONS you need to use bloodmagic. That's all (and it's not a remarkable revelation). The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

However, when you get the quest, you DO learn from the person that gives you the quest (via Mage's Collective message) that the Scrolls of Bannester can be used to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

What it proves about Kirkwall is completely irrelevant because that has nothing to do with the question of whether blood magic can be learned without the assistance of demons.  If you're going to try to dispute someone's point, at least try to make it applicable to what the hell they're talking about.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

...How does one get chased from Tevinter?

What the hell was she doing? Freeing slaves?

Adralla was an extremely pious mage who created the Litany as a defense against blood magic.  I assume she was actively taking on the more powerful blood mages of the Imperium.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  I can actually read what is printed WITHOUT inserting my opinion into it.  The scroll entry as written simply does not prove your case.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Again, I'll quote.

In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair,

Demons and spirits.

but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours.

They attack mages while they are awake.

Our power attracts them, and for good reason:

They are attracted to mages.

Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh.

They want to possess mages.

To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them.

Summon / Lure demons...

Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world.

Give yourself to them or make them teach you power... what power do demons give you? Blood magic! What do these scrolls teach? How to learn blood magic, you say? Well, funny that. It's saying to contact a demon. I'm totally forcing my opinion on this, like absolutely. It doesn't just say it right there.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 10:46 .

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It could happen, mages struggle with demons their entire lives. It's more likely to happen when mages are sleeping (as they are directly connected to the Fade there), though they are always connected to the Fade and always at risk of becoming possessed.

Thanks for the reasoned reply.  Parts of this thread have gotten heated

So, there are two problems:

1) Mages can under certain circumstances get possesed.  This being different from just being a random bad person who happens to be a mage.

2) After 1000 + years, the populace doesn't trust mages.  Except apparently when they're the Warden or Champion and have that lovely plot armor

The Chantry's solution has been to gather up and lock away every mage they can.  I'd say the incident in Kirkwall proves this isn't the right answer. 

For 1) you could still train mages and set up a system to graduate them once they pass something akin to a harrowing.

For 2) well, lots of people were uncomfortable when colored folks started moving in to "nice" neighborhoods.  Changing popular opinion is slow and messy, but allowing the Chantry to continue to preach the prejudice isn't going to help fix it.

The current system broke in a major part because you can't systemically treat a certain group of people as sub-human cursed monsters without them eventually deciding that it's worth dying to change things.  DA2 ended on that precipice and I hope we're actually allowed to try to make things good (not just better as that's relative to complete crap...) for the mages.

[IanPolaris]

Dave,

Very nice. Show me ANYWHERE in that dissertation where it says that you MUST contact Demons to learn bloodmagic. I agree it says you can but there is a wide gulf between can and MUST.

-Polaris