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[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...How does one get chased from Tevinter?

What the hell was she doing? Freeing slaves?

Adralla was an extremely pious mage who created the Litany as a defense against blood magic.  I assume she was actively taking on the more powerful blood mages of the Imperium.

The codex entries gloss over this, but you do realize the irony inherent with Adralla.  Adralla herself was a bloodmage!  She might have devoted her research to fighting it, to be sure, but to do so required a broad and deep knowledge of bloodmagic (and the codex entry on Adralla admits this) which makes her a bloodmage.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave,

Very nice. Show me ANYWHERE in that dissertation where it says that you MUST contact Demons to learn bloodmagic. I agree it says you can but there is a wide gulf between can and MUST.

-Polaris

You said that the scrolls in the quest could teach mages how to use blood magic! I doubt reading "summon a demon and make it give you it's power" suddenly makes you a powerful blood mage, you have to do it yourself.

Oh wait, because it doesn't  spell out "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN BLOOD MAGIC" means that I'm wrong.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 10:51 .

[moilami]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The scrolls of bannester themselves confirm that to SUMMON DEMONS you need to use bloodmagic. That's all (and it's not a remarkable revelation). The scrolls in NO WAY prove that you have to learn bloodmagic froma demon. The scrolls don't come close to saying that.

However, when you get the quest, you DO learn from the person that gives you the quest (via Mage's Collective message) that the Scrolls of Bannester can be used to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

......... Since your comprehensive skills aren't up to snuff.
"In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."
It very, very clearly states that the contact of demons are required to learn blood magic. And the scrolls are used for learning BLood Magic. They teach you exactly what you need to start learning blood magic. To contact demons.

Nope.  You might want to brush up on that reading comprehension yourself.  You are letting your biases influence what you think a passage says vs what it actually says.

It SAYS that you can learn bloodmagic by appealing to demons.  It doesn't say you HAVE to.

-Polaris

It would not make sense if only demons could teach BM. Avernus, or whoever, in DA DLC was very competent researcher of BM. Why he would not be able to teach BM? What could make BM so special only demons can teach it of all magic and special abilities?

And what about Dwarf companion in DA2? he could toss confusion tricks on market place, effectively making commoners kill each other in frenzy. So........OMG PUT ROGUES IN CONCENTRATION CAMP IN THE NAME OF PUBLIC SAFETY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Righ? Why only mages.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  I can actually read what is printed WITHOUT inserting my opinion into it.  The scroll entry as written simply does not prove your case.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Again, I'll quote.

In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair,

Demons and spirits.

but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours.

They attack mages while they are awake.

Our power attracts them, and for good reason:

They are attracted to mages.

Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh.

They want to possess mages.

To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them.

Summon / Lure demons...

Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world.

Give yourself to them or make them teach you power... what power do demons give you? Blood magic! What do these scrolls teach? How to learn blood magic, you say? Well, funny that. It's saying to contact a demon. I'm totally forcing my opinion on this, like absolutely. It doesn't just say it right there.

The point is that that doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way to learn blood magic!  Jeez, how hard is this concept to grasp?!

[LobselVith8]

Adralla being a blood mage would explain how she knew how to devise a litany capable of preventing mind domination through blood magic, but I doubt the Chantry would want this to be common knowledge. It would explain why Wynne regards her as a bard in conversation with The Warden.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave,

Very nice. Show me ANYWHERE in that dissertation where it says that you MUST contact Demons to learn bloodmagic. I agree it says you can but there is a wide gulf between can and MUST.

-Polaris

You said that the scrolls in the quest could teach mages how to use blood magic! I doubt reading "summon a demon and make it give you it's power" suddenly makes you a powerful blood mage, you have to do it yourself.

Oh wait, because it doesn't  spell out "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN BLOOD MAGIC" means that I'm wrong.

Again, you are making great and unwarrented leaps in logic.  The scrolls detail one way to learn bloodmagic (via demons), but apparently the quest giver thinks that the scrolls of bannester themselves can be used to teach bloodmagic.  Now if it does in fact require contacting a demon, then it only shows that the scrolls of bannester aren't indepenant of learning bloodmagic from a demon...but that's ALL you will have shown.

You still have not shown anywhere that there is a universal prohibition against learning bloodmagic EXCEPT from a demon.  In fact there are many places in the game (and Lob was kind enough to illustrate a few) where the game lore says exactly the opposite.

Please stop reading stuff into things that isn't there.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

The point is that that doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way to learn blood magic!  Jeez, how hard is this concept to grasp?!

Because he was saying the scrolls could be used to learn blood magic, therefor it's not only demons. Yet the scrolls says talk with demons, meaning his point is invalid and he's changed it to suit his needs. Funny that.

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

She was pious, i ignore that because im not religious. The litany protected others from possession. 

How can you not suddenly use kirkwall to make judgements about Thedas?  What exactly should we ignore, everything we have learned and seen? Or the fact that an all out rebellion regardless of the viel and kirkwalls hellmouth has actually had an effect everywhere.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Funny how certain justifications get ignored when they suddenly make a person's own arguments look bad.

You made me laugh very hard, thank you. I needed it, I lacked my daily dose of hypocricy.

That's moi! Hypocrite extraordinaire! 

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The point is that that doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way to learn blood magic!  Jeez, how hard is this concept to grasp?!

Because he was saying the scrolls could be used to learn blood magic, therefor it's not only demons. Yet the scrolls says talk with demons, meaning his point is invalid and he's changed it to suit his needs. Funny that.

First of all, even if using the scrolls did require using demons (which not even the scrolls say they do), then it only shows that the scrolls of bannester are not an independant way of learning bloodmagic and that the questgiver was mistaken.  That's all.  Frankly we don't even know that.  It might be possible that the parts of the scrolls we don't see and can't read DO contain the essence of what a demon would teach you.  That's equally likely I think.

Regardless, the scroll entries don't prove what you claimed. Bottom line.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Please stop reading stuff into things that isn't there.

-Polaris

I'm not reading what isn't there, I'm reading what's there. 1 + 1 = 2, not 11. You're the one taking what isn't there as proof of your points, though it shouldn't surprise me anymore.

So please do this for me.

Please stop reading stuff into things that isn't there.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

She was pious, i ignore that because im not religious. The litany protected others from possession. 

How can you not suddenly use kirkwall to make judgements about Thedas?  What exactly should we ignore, everything we have learned and seen? Or the fact that an all out rebellion regardless of the viel and kirkwalls hellmouth has actually had an effect everywhere.

Read the Enigma of Kirkwall, and then google the phrase, "Special Case".  In this case the viel is so badly damaged and there is so much bad ju-ju that the normal rules of magic, the fade, and possession aren't valid.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Please stop reading stuff into things that isn't there.

-Polaris

I'm not reading what isn't there, I'm reading what's there. 1 + 1 = 2, not 11. You're the one taking what isn't there as proof of your points, though it shouldn't surprise me anymore.

So please do this for me.

Please stop reading stuff into things that isn't there.

You claimed that the scrolls of bannastor themselves PROVED that you could only learn Bloodmagic from Demons.

That claim has been debunked.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The point is that that doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way to learn blood magic!  Jeez, how hard is this concept to grasp?!

Because he was saying the scrolls could be used to learn blood magic, therefor it's not only demons. Yet the scrolls says talk with demons, meaning his point is invalid and he's changed it to suit his needs. Funny that.

I'm trying to stay out of the discussion on the Banastor scrolls themselves because I agree, those scrolls don't themselves teach blood magic.  I read the other post in question as insisting that it proved that blood magic could only be learned through demons, however, which was the thrust of my point in that quote.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

She was pious, i ignore that because im not religious. The litany protected others from possession. 

How can you not suddenly use kirkwall to make judgements about Thedas?  What exactly should we ignore, everything we have learned and seen? Or the fact that an all out rebellion regardless of the viel and kirkwalls hellmouth has actually had an effect everywhere.

The point is that Kirkwall, unlike other places in Thedas, is in a location where the Veil is extremely thin, making pretty much everyone in the vicinity prone to demon assaults.  It's not really a fair judgment to hold up Kirkwall as a general example when it has unique circumstances not seen elsewhere.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

2: To gather all mages in one place to make it easier to find them, when one of them goes bonkers.

Perhaps you could correct this to say "most" mages?  They obviously don't get them all to start with and then there's the ones who escape somehow.  Still, Kirkwall seems to be generaly standing with a few random free mages in it until Anders + Meredith = giant fiasco.

Well I was speaking of an ideal, more than in praksis.

Sure, but the point I was attempting to make is that the world already survives abominiations and free mages.  A village levelled every couple of decades has continued to happen even with the circles and seems to be more about young mages who haven't been trained at all or properly.

A system which leads to parents being afraid to acknowledge their child's ability could actually be making this worse.

Certainly most of the trained adult mages seem to be dealing with demons for reasons the Chantry and circles either create or fail to prevent.  I'm not at all convinced that allowing trained mages to lead normal lives would put people in more actual danger.  They may well feel in more danger until the social outlook and Chantry preaching changes, but they wouldn't necessarily BE less safe.  A mage with a family, friends and job has something tangible to hold onto as a reason to resist the temptations of demons.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

You claimed that the scrolls of bannastor themselves PROVED that you could only learn Bloodmagic from Demons.

And you claimed that the scrolls proved that blood magic can be learned from other sources, I debunked the scrolls. I'm waiting for you to show me any evidence other than the scrolls (which tell you to summon a demon) which show to me that there's other methods on how to learn blood magic.

The scrolls aren't what is proving me that you have to contact a demon, it's everything including the scrolls.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

2: To gather all mages in one place to make it easier to find them, when one of them goes bonkers.

Perhaps you could correct this to say "most" mages?  They obviously don't get them all to start with and then there's the ones who escape somehow.  Still, Kirkwall seems to be generaly standing with a few random free mages in it until Anders + Meredith = giant fiasco.

Well I was speaking of an ideal, more than in praksis.

Sure, but the point I was attempting to make is that the world already survives abominiations and free mages.  A village levelled every couple of decades has continued to happen even with the circles and seems to be more about young mages who haven't been trained at all or properly.

A system which leads to parents being afraid to acknowledge their child's ability could actually be making this worse.

Certainly most of the trained adult mages seem to be dealing with demons for reasons the Chantry and circles either create or fail to prevent.  I'm not at all convinced that allowing trained mages to lead normal lives would put people in more actual danger.  They may well feel in more danger until the social outlook and Chantry preaching changes, but they wouldn't necessarily BE less safe.  A mage with a family, friends and job has something tangible to hold onto as a reason to resist the temptations of demons.

Careful.  I tried to make this point several dozen pages back and found myself barraged with posts talking about how Connor in Redcliffe was so totally exactly what we've been advocating for and proves how stoopid wrong we are OMG.

[TEWR]

maybe the arcane runes and glyphs and whatnot on the scrolls are a way to learn blood magic without a demon? I don't know, just throwing this out there. I'm not certain.

Regardless, blood magic CAN be learned from demons. That does not make it the only way to learn it.

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

She was pious, i ignore that because im not religious. The litany protected others from possession. 

How can you not suddenly use kirkwall to make judgements about Thedas?  What exactly should we ignore, everything we have learned and seen? Or the fact that an all out rebellion regardless of the viel and kirkwalls hellmouth has actually had an effect everywhere.

Read the Enigma of Kirkwall, and then google the phrase, "Special Case".  In this case the viel is so badly damaged and there is so much bad ju-ju that the normal rules of magic, the fade, and possession aren't valid.

-Polaris

So how else does a demon get a 'window' into Thedas. Its not a coffee and a bun. Blood magic 'shifts' the viel... it had an immediate effect on the fade think about why that is. All i have seen of it is mind control, demons/abominations/shades and used for kidnap. I doubt demons in the next city would be much different.

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world.

Give yourself to them or make them teach you power... what power do demons give you? Blood magic! What do these scrolls teach? How to learn blood magic, you say? Well, funny that. It's saying to contact a demon. I'm totally forcing my opinion on this, like absolutely. It doesn't just say it right there.

Uh, I've just barely been following the blood magic part of this thread, but that quoted part doesn't say that a demon is the only way to learn blood magic.  I never really cared whether the Chantry hated blood magic or not, but I think you'd need better evidence than that quote to prove it requires a demon.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

Careful.  I tried to make this point several dozen pages back and found myself barraged with posts talking about how Connor in Redcliffe was so totally exactly what we've been advocating for and proves how stoopid wrong we are OMG.

It's ok.  At this point I'm only still here to practice expressing my opinion in a clear and precise fashion.  If I'd ever had any hope of winning anyone over to my way of thinking it vanished around page 8 

I find it interesting how people think and how they justify actions that I couldn't justify.  Getting attacked is just another glimpse into how people think.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

She was pious, i ignore that because im not religious. The litany protected others from possession. 

How can you not suddenly use kirkwall to make judgements about Thedas?  What exactly should we ignore, everything we have learned and seen? Or the fact that an all out rebellion regardless of the viel and kirkwalls hellmouth has actually had an effect everywhere.

Read the Enigma of Kirkwall, and then google the phrase, "Special Case".  In this case the viel is so badly damaged and there is so much bad ju-ju that the normal rules of magic, the fade, and possession aren't valid.

-Polaris

So how else does a demon get a 'window' into Thedas. Its not a coffee and a bun. Blood magic 'shifts' the viel... it had an immediate effect on the fade think about why that is. All i have seen of it is mind control, demons/abominations/shades and used for kidnap. I doubt demons in the next city would be much different.

*sigh*  This, again, is a completely different question from how blood magic is learned.  I wish people would stop conflating different aspects in an attempt to argue an unrelated moral position.

[LobselVith8]

GavrielKay wrote...

I never really cared whether the Chantry hated blood magic or not, but I think you'd need better evidence than that quote to prove it requires a demon.

There really is no proof that blood magic requires a demon. In fact, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, or if she learned it from a demon. Even historians debate that the Tevinter Imperium may have learned blood magic from the Arlathan elves, which means that lore provides us with discussion between historians where it's acknowledged blood magic can be taught to another. This is evident when The Warden teaches Anders blood magic, and it is reflected in dialogue between the two characters. There's nothing to stipulate that blood magic can only be learned from demons.

[TJPags]

Wow. The thread that never ends.

Has anyone actually changed their minds during this train wreck of a "discussion"?