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[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Careful.  I tried to make this point several dozen pages back and found myself barraged with posts talking about how Connor in Redcliffe was so totally exactly what we've been advocating for and proves how stoopid wrong we are OMG.

It's ok.  At this point I'm only still here to practice expressing my opinion in a clear and precise fashion.  If I'd ever had any hope of winning anyone over to my way of thinking it vanished around page 8 

I find it interesting how people think and how they justify actions that I couldn't justify.  Getting attacked is just another glimpse into how people think.

That's what's pretty much kept me here for...*checks* eighty-odd pages now. 

[Lewie]

Silfren wrote...

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

It doesn't matter if it comes from a book or scroll. They are pages.. of spells. It at least proves that demon summoning in kirkwall was rife. I have even tried to think of a safe way of blood magic, Adralla found a way that protected from mind control etc yet was chased out of Tevinter and 3 times i think they tried to kill her and she ended up in the ferelden circle. Why chase her out, well its obvious.

Not really.  Did you read the Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The veil is almost non-existant and Kirkwall is built on what amounts to a Hellmouth.  Demons can (and do) cross the viel almost at will in many places of Kirkwall.  You can't use Kirkwall to make any judgements about the rest of Thedas (although the Bioware writers certainly invite you to make such wrong comparisons by hiding the Enigma of Kirkwall entries).

-Polaris

She was pious, i ignore that because im not religious. The litany protected others from possession. 

How can you not suddenly use kirkwall to make judgements about Thedas?  What exactly should we ignore, everything we have learned and seen? Or the fact that an all out rebellion regardless of the viel and kirkwalls hellmouth has actually had an effect everywhere.

The point is that Kirkwall, unlike other places in Thedas, is in a location where the Veil is extremely thin, making pretty much everyone in the vicinity prone to demon assaults.  It's not really a fair judgment to hold up Kirkwall as a general example when it has unique circumstances not seen elsewhere.

I agree, which also makes me not trust anders even more. His own horrors/corruption, and listening to mages in darktown who were abominations. Perfect opportunity for demons. 

Sound mind and judgement were around but not always trustworthy on all sides.

[Dave of Canada]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sure, but the point I was attempting to make is that the world already survives abominiations and free mages.

Though not everybody enjoys the system in the  free mage world, some might not enjoy having to rebuild everything or mourning their dead because an abomination went "rawr".

A village levelled every couple of decades has continued to happen even with the circles and seems to be more about young mages who haven't been trained at all or properly.

We know enough that even Tevinter has it's own Templar to deal with the rogue mages / abominations, I doubt they'd exist if it was an infrequent problem everywhere.

A system which leads to parents being afraid to acknowledge their child's ability could actually be making this worse.

Then it's the parent's fault, isn't it? Redcliffe would (most likely) have happened even if it was in Tevinter, Isolde didn't want to lose her child and even Tevinter takes them away. Parents who don't want to lose their children will keep them.

A mage with a family, friends and job has something tangible to hold onto as a reason to resist the temptations of demons.

Or have more temptation, a mage in the Circle is only tempted by two things: Freedom and power. What's a mage outside the Circle tempted by? Power? Politics? Wealth? Family? Knowledge? ect

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 11:27 .

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Wow. The thread that never ends.

Has anyone actually changed their minds during this train wreck of a "discussion"?

Every once in a while someone will at least admit that the other person isn't a blithering idiot while maintaining that they still don't agree with them

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

Wow. The thread that never ends.

Has anyone actually changed their minds during this train wreck of a "discussion"?

nope! that's what makes it so much fun!

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I never really cared whether the Chantry hated blood magic or not, but I think you'd need better evidence than that quote to prove it requires a demon.

There really is no proof that blood magic requires a demon. In fact, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, or if she learned it from a demon. Even historians debate that the Tevinter Imperium may have learned blood magic from the Arlathan elves, which means that lore provides us with discussion between historians where it's acknowledged blood magic can be taught to another. This is evident when The Warden teaches Anders blood magic, and it is reflected in dialogue between the two characters. There's nothing to stipulate that blood magic can only be learned from demons.

I know there's a dialog where The Warden points out that Anders is technically a maleficar if he takes up that specialization, and Anders says the irony isn't lost on him (Which I still find amusing given his utter contempt for blood magic in DA2), but what's this dialog about The Warden teaching him magic?

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

I know there's a dialog where The Warden points out that Anders is technically a maleficar if he takes up that specialization, and Anders says the irony isn't lost on him (Which I still find amusing given his utter contempt for blood magic in DA2), but what's this dialog about The Warden teaching him magic?

I've never seen it myself even on my Blood Mage.

[Silfren]

TJPags wrote...

Wow. The thread that never ends.

Has anyone actually changed their minds during this train wreck of a "discussion"?

Nah.  That'd be the The Anders Thread.  Heading toward 1600 pages now.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

So how else does a demon get a 'window' into Thedas. Its not a coffee and a bun. Blood magic 'shifts' the veil...

It's because the Veil is weak in Kirkwall. The Band of Three codex entries address this fact. Kirkwall isn't like most places because the Veil was severely weakened during the reign of the Imperium. This isn't the case with every other society in Thedas.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

I agree, which also makes me not trust anders even more. His own horrors/corruption, and listening to mages in darktown who were abominations. Perfect opportunity for demons. 

Sound mind and judgement were around but not always trustworthy on all sides.

Wait, what?  When was Anders in talks with mage abominations in Darktown?  I think that's what you're saying, anyway.

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Though not everybody enjoys the system in the  free mage world, some might not enjoy having to rebuild everything or mourning their dead because an abomination went "rawr".

I'm quite sure that the victims and their familes are not happy at all.  Just look how Meredith turned out.

My only point is that now we have the occasional abomination wrecking a village AND mages kept prisoner for life.  If we can't eliminate the random abominations without trying something new, perhaps the something new could be treating mages with respect and human dignity.

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I know there's a dialog where The Warden points out that Anders is technically a maleficar if he takes up that specialization, and Anders says the irony isn't lost on him (Which I still find amusing given his utter contempt for blood magic in DA2), but what's this dialog about The Warden teaching him magic?

I've never seen it myself even on my Blood Mage.

That conversation is in Awakening, right?

[TJPags]

GavrielKay wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow. The thread that never ends.

Has anyone actually changed their minds during this train wreck of a "discussion"?

Every once in a while someone will at least admit that the other person isn't a blithering idiot while maintaining that they still don't agree with them

There are several people in here who I think make compelling, rational arguments.  On the whole, I'd say that's most people.  I even agree with several pro-mage arguments.  I agree with many more pro-templar arguments, though.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren,

I meant the blood mage dialogue you just referenced.

What opinions changed in the Anders thread? Do you think Anders can reconcile the Spirit of Justice (or Vengeance) that's now a part of him, post-DA2?

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

A system which leads to parents being afraid to acknowledge their child's ability could actually be making this worse.

Then it's the parent's fault, isn't it? Redcliffe would (most likely) have happened even if it was in Tevinter, Isolde didn't want to lose her child and even Tevinter takes them away. Parents who don't want to lose their children will keep them.

Um,no.  It's the fault of the Chantry-created system that led to parents being terrified of losing their children in the first place.  I honestly don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

A mage with a family, friends and job has something tangible to hold onto as a reason to resist the temptations of demons.


Or have more temptation, a mage in the Circle is only tempted by two things: Freedom and power. What's a mage outside the Circle tempted by? Power? Politics? Wealth? Family? Knowledge? ect

A Circle mage isn't going to be tempted by those things...why?  Uldred was definitely motivated by the drive for power.  And he managed to utterly decimate the Circle, which isn't much of an argument in favor of the Circles being the best means of containing a mage threat.  After all, ya gotta wonder how far Uldred would have gotten if he hadn't been surrounded by mages who were so sick of being imprisoned that they made for ready conspirators.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

GavrielKay wrote...

My only point is that now we have the occasional abomination wrecking a village AND mages kept prisoner for life.

The mages in the Circle might be stopping the abomination problem from getting worse, it's a logic shown in the game that I happen to agree with. Releasing the mages might make the abominations destroying everything possibly worse, something that I don't support.

If we can't eliminate the random abominations without trying something new, perhaps the something new could be treating mages with respect and human dignity.

Releasing the mages wouldn't make them have respect and dignity, Wynne herself states that a lot of mages don't even make it to the Circle.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

So how else does a demon get a 'window' into Thedas. Its not a coffee and a bun. Blood magic 'shifts' the veil...

It's because the Veil is weak in Kirkwall. The Band of Three codex entries address this fact. Kirkwall isn't like most places because the Veil was severely weakened during the reign of the Imperium. This isn't the case with every other society in Thedas.

So blood magic doesn't shift the viel anywhere else? Which means the blood magic in kirkwall is somehow different? Hardly. Its simply more potent in kirkwall.

[Dave of Canada]

GavrielKay wrote...

That conversation is in Awakening, right?

Yeah, I don't know the one that Lobsel brought up but there's another reference if you bring a blood mage Anders to the tree outside Amaranthine. He'll mention that he assumes he'd probably be killed for being a blood mage, true or not. You can bring up that he is a blood mage now and he'll laugh it off.

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Releasing the mages wouldn't make them have respect and dignity, Wynne herself states that a lot of mages don't even make it to the Circle.

So?  Something being difficult doesn't mean that you shouldn't work towards it.  Had the Chantry been gently guiding things along for centuries we might be there now.

I'm not debating this based on what I think is easy or painless.  I'm debating it based on what I think is the right thing to do.  My idea of the right thing and yours are apparently different, but the argument isn't about what's easy.

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

That conversation is in Awakening, right?

Yeah, I don't know the one that Lobsel brought up but there's another reference if you bring a blood mage Anders to the tree outside Amaranthine. He'll mention that he assumes he'd probably be killed for being a blood mage, true or not. You can bring up that he is a blood mage now and he'll laugh it off.

OK.  I think I've heard that one.  I remember thinking it was nice that game noticed what I'd done.

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...

I'm debating it based on what I think is the right thing to do.  My idea of the right thing and yours are apparently different, but the argument isn't about what's easy.

The argument should be about what's politically and socially feasible.

I personally do not advocate the maintaining of the Chantry system and believe that something different and more efficient can be established. But I try to base it on the political / social reaities of Thedas as much as the current info we have allows, not on what's "right". I think that's easier to debate about. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 mai 2011 - 11:52 .

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

Um,no.  It's the fault of the Chantry-created system that led to parents being terrified of losing their children in the first place.  I honestly don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

Tell me, how would a child recieve proper training in the magical arts if the children aren't taken away? Tevinter takes them away and they don't have the same Chantry or view of mages.

A Circle mage isn't going to be tempted by those things...why?

Because they have no use for it, a mage in the tower is only tempted by the two things they can see: Power and freedom, often linked together.

What use is politics to a mage in the Circle? They probably don't even know / care who is in charge of their country or who they are at war with, I assume the older mages barely noticed the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

How can they be tempted by a demon offering to protect his/her family if they have none (and mages in general don't care about families)?

Wealth plays a part into the Circle life (Lucrosians) though it's unlikely to play enough importance to the mages that they'd side with a demon for it in the Circle of Magi.

Uldred was definitely motivated by the drive for power.

He supported Loghain, not demons. He became an abomination against his will, he didn't make a deal with them.

And he managed to utterly decimate the Circle, which isn't much of an argument in favor of the Circles being the best means of containing a mage threat.

And how much damage did he do to the outside? Barely any, Ferelden barely noticed that the Circle was decimated. What would've happened if Uldred was possessed in the middle of Denerim?

After all, ya gotta wonder how far Uldred would have gotten if he hadn't been surrounded by mages who were so sick of being imprisoned that they made for ready conspirators.

Considering the large majority opposed him and tried to stop him before he went abomination except for a few blood mages (which were being hunted by the now-abomination Uldred)?

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The argument should be about what's politically and socially feasible.

I'd be a lousy politician.  For the whole 3 minutes I'd last before I ran screaming.

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tell me, how would a child recieve proper training in the magical arts if the children aren't taken away? Tevinter takes them away and they don't have the same Chantry or view of mages.

"Taken away" has different ways of being handled.  Take the child away in chains and s/he never gets to leave the circle again vs. have a nice goodbye with the family before going away to boarding school and then one day getting married and running a farm.  And a whole range in between I'd imagine.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren,

I meant the blood mage dialogue you just referenced.

What opinions changed in the Anders thread? Do you think Anders can reconcile the Spirit of Justice (or Vengeance) that's now a part of him, post-DA2?

I meant that that thread will never, ever die, lol.  I'm not sure that any opinions changed there.  Not that there's usually all that much of a serious discussion.  It's mostly about hawt!Anders or Andersbutt and occasionally even a little hawt!Andersbutt.  I think I saw a semi-serious discussion about terrorism that managed to last a whole three pages a week ago...

I'm anxious for the bug to be fixed so I can play the rivalry ending.  I like the basic idea behind rivalry vs friendship, but it seems that with Anders, the binary is between completely supporting his descent into Vengeance's madness, or being completely anti-mage.  Certainly that seems to be Anders' take on your rivalry with him.  Anyway, with friendship it seems that Anders has completely given up fighting and opted to embrace his possession, but rivalry has him basically ending up a completely broken man.  Since we see with Wynne that it is possible for a spirit to co-exist in a mortal body, I'd like to think that yes, Anders can reconcile the spirit within him.  Haven't given much thought on that, but I do recall his mention that Tevinter is the only place that ever studied ways to separate spirits from their hosts.  Yes, he was lying about several things in that conversation, but given what we know of Tevinter I actually think that's probably true.  That's valuable information to have, and Tevinter apparently doesn't share the Chantry's habit of prohibiting various avenues of research.  Also, we have those Rivaini seers.  Since they have a tradition of mages who deliberately get themselves possessed, I think it also stands to reason they have knowledge of how to control possession, or oust a spirit if it becomes necessary to do so. 

I'm also reminded of when Anders proclaims to Hawke that he feels exultant, that he can't describe the ecstasy of a spirit having fulfilled its function.  I wonder if Justice's single-minded drive, coupled with Anders' specific goal, could mean that with the exploding of the Chantry and the subsequent war, that by fulfilled, it means that Justice/Vengeance could go dormant now, having no further purpose to exist.  I admit, it's a stretch, but I got something of a vibe along those lines at the scene with Anders awaiting Hawke's judgment.  Or, hey, maybe Justice causing an act of injustice caused the spirit to short-circuit itself.