4350 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Uldred was definitely motivated by the drive for power.

He supported Loghain, not demons. He became an abomination against his will, he didn't make a deal with them.

Are you sure about this? The impression I got was that Uldred dealt with the demon willingly for power, even if he didn't necessarily intend for it to go so far, he wasn't exactly innocent.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...
What use is politics to a mage in the Circle? They probably don't even know / care who is in charge of their country or who they are at war with, I assume the older mages barely noticed the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

Other than the "offensive" drive for power, political power also offers defensive benefits. In short, political power and leverage would avoid keeping the mages the clear weak link in power relations, which essentially ensures that they, their demands and their opinions would be easily ignored. Which is what happened in DA2. Orsino had no political leverage except what was offered by Meredith's incompetence. If the KC was more competent than Meredith, the mages would virtually have no political cards and could thus be easily ignored.

It's much easier to ignore and consider annihilating someone with no political leverage.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

My only point is that now we have the occasional abomination wrecking a village AND mages kept prisoner for life.

The mages in the Circle might be stopping the abomination problem from getting worse, it's a logic shown in the game that I happen to agree with. Releasing the mages might make the abominations destroying everything possibly worse, something that I don't support.

If we can't eliminate the random abominations without trying something new, perhaps the something new could be treating mages with respect and human dignity.

Releasing the mages wouldn't make them have respect and dignity, Wynne herself states that a lot of mages don't even make it to the Circle.

Why did you turn the phrase "treating mages with respect and human dignity" into "releasing the mages wouldn't make them have respect and dignity" ?  And what does Wynne's comment have to do with Gavriel's point?  You've effectively changed the argument.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

So how else does a demon get a 'window' into Thedas. Its not a coffee and a bun. Blood magic 'shifts' the veil...

It's because the Veil is weak in Kirkwall. The Band of Three codex entries address this fact. Kirkwall isn't like most places because the Veil was severely weakened during the reign of the Imperium. This isn't the case with every other society in Thedas.

So blood magic doesn't shift the viel anywhere else? Which means the blood magic in kirkwall is somehow different? Hardly. Its simply more potent in kirkwall.

That's not what was said.  The Veil in Kirkwall during Hawke's stay was made artificially thinner than anywhere else in Thedas due to all the suffering and death that took place.  That's not saying that blood magic doesn't thin the Veil elsewhere.  It's saying that the Veil is already EXTREMELY thin in Kirkwall more than anywhere else known.  And apparently it's permanently this way?  

[Dave of Canada]

GavrielKay wrote...

Are you sure about this? The impression I got was that Uldred dealt with the demon willingly for power, even if he didn't necessarily intend for it to go so far, he wasn't exactly innocent.

He was a blood mage, though he didn't make the offer with the demon. When approaching the Circle to make them support Loghain, they threw away their support when Wynne told them about what happened at Ostagar. Uldred tried to explain himself but Irving was going to stop him, he tried to summon a demon to defend himself from them but got possessed.

The Warden arrives after Pride Abomination Uldred devastated the tower, you still see of Uldred's (former) blood mage supporters being scared and hunted by abominations. IIRC, you see two of them talk before an abomination shows up and kill them (if you don't intervene, though if you do you still have to kill them).

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

How can they tempted by a demon offering to protect his/her family if they have none (and mages in general don't care about families)?

Anders, Jowan, and Finn remembered their families. The Warden from the Circle (and from the Denerim Alienage background) can discuss his family with Leliana. Why do you think mages don't care about families? One of the questions the protagonist of the Magi Origin can ask Jowan is about his family.

Why do you assume they do not care about the outside world? I think the mages would care. Even the mage protagonist can ask Duncan about the outside world because he wants to know. And enchanter Wilhelm was clearly aware of the Orlesian occupation, which lead to his involvement (and freedom).

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

That conversation is in Awakening, right?

Yeah, I don't know the one that Lobsel brought up but there's another reference if you bring a blood mage Anders to the tree outside Amaranthine. He'll mention that he assumes he'd probably be killed for being a blood mage, true or not. You can bring up that he is a blood mage now and he'll laugh it off.

That's the one I'm talking about.  He says that he's certain that he would have eventually been branded a maleficar even if it wasn't true, and executed.  When the Warden points out that he is a blood mage, his response is "Well, now I am.  Don't think the irony is lost on me."  He's got a good point, too.  Prior to learning blood magic from the Warden after being conscripted, he was not a blood mage, and therefore not a maleficar, so he hadn't committed broken any laws warranting execution...he just thinks that the templars would have branded him such in order to have the excuse.

Edit: Silly typo

Modifié par Silfren, 14 mai 2011 - 12:35 .

[GavrielKay]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Are you sure about this? The impression I got was that Uldred dealt with the demon willingly for power, even if he didn't necessarily intend for it to go so far, he wasn't exactly innocent.

He was a blood mage, though he didn't make the offer with the demon. When approaching the Circle to make them support Loghain, they threw away their support when Wynne told them about what happened at Ostagar. Uldred tried to explain himself but Irving was going to stop him, he tried to summon a demon to defend himself from them but got possessed.

The Warden arrives after Pride Abomination Uldred devastated the tower, you still see of Uldred's (former) blood mage supporters being scared and hunted by abominations. IIRC, you see two of them talk before an abomination shows up and kill them (if you don't intervene, though if you do you still have to kill them).

OK.  I hated doing the fade so much in Origins and I was just happy to be back in the circle and didn't learn too much about why it was a mess

Still, Uldred had his reasons and dealt with the demon on purpose - he was just too arrogant to know how badly it would go.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Um,no.  It's the fault of the Chantry-created system that led to parents being terrified of losing their children in the first place.  I honestly don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

Tell me, how would a child recieve proper training in the magical arts if the children aren't taken away? Tevinter takes them away and they don't have the same Chantry or view of mages.

Many, many times I and others have put forth that the Circles could be used as boarding schools.  The issue isn't about children being taken away to study, it's about them NOT being taken away--in chains, no less--permanently and being cut off from their family for life.  

Edit: I fail at quoting posts.  Gah.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 mai 2011 - 12:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than the "offensive" drive for power, political power also offers defensive benefits. In short, political power and leverage would avoid keeping the mages the clear weak link in power relations, which essentially ensures that they, their demands and their opinions would be easily ignored. Which is what happened in DA2. Orsino had no political leverage except what was offered by Meredith's incompetence. If the KC was more competent than Meredith, the mages would virtually have no political cards and could thus be easily ignored.

It's much easier to ignore and consider annihilating someone with no political leverage.

Of course, though I'm talking more in the shoes of an apprentice or enchanter. Somebody who isn't relevent in the Circle, simply one of the people living there. The First Enchanter / Senior Enchanters might be an entirely different story, though they lasted quite a long time in their position that I assume they know better (though that's not to say a few of them aren't trying to better themselves).

I heavily doubt desire demons would show up to an apprentice and offer them to be First Enchanter for example.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Releasing the mages wouldn't make them have respect and dignity, Wynne herself states that a lot of mages don't even make it to the Circle.

That's because Andrastians kill the mages. That was her point when she talks about Andrastians blaming mages when things do bad, because in their ignorance they think it's the fault of the mage that there's a drought or that a baby died.

The Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden can still be loved by the people, though. Queen Anora notes that the people think he's blessed by the Maker. He can become a high noble as the Arl of Amaranthine, have an army at his command, govern a city, and dictate the direction of the Ferelen order of Grey Wardens. I'd imagine it takes a capable person to show that not all mages should be vilified. Anders did this for a while with his clinic, where refugees were willing to give their lives to defend him because he healed the sick and helped deliver the babies.

[Dave of Canada]

argh computer is loading slowly at the moment, posts take 5 minutes to show up. Sorry if I miss anything, I'm literally not sure if this post will even work.

[LobselVith8]

The Circle of Ferelden is one of the most liberal of the fourteen Circles of Magi in the Andrastian nations, but we can still see that a protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden can see it as a "prison" and an "oppressive place," two terms that are acknowledged by Wynne, an an Aequitarian. I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles work, and we know that they have lead to a continential revolt by the Circle mages against the Chantry and the templars. The system has brought the world to the brink of war, and I don't think things can go back to the way they were before, when mages were forced into servitude to the Chantry.

Regarding Wilhelm, we see what one mage free of the Chantry and the templars is capable of: he was an enchanter with the Circle of Magi, but he aided Moira the Rebel Queen and Maric the Saviour in defeating the Orlesian occupation. The fact that he lived outside of the Circle Tower in the village of Honnleath and that his son, Matthias, wasn't taken away by the Chantry tells me that he was given his freedom from the Cicle of Magi by King Maric. The same freedom is afforded to a Grey Warden mage, since we know that the protagonist can become Teyrn of Gwaren or retire from the order to spend time with Leliana in the Epilogue slides.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 mai 2011 - 07:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

Will try to keep responding though.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 mai 2011 - 12:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Of course, though I'm talking more in the shoes of an apprentice or enchanter. Somebody who isn't relevent in the Circle, simply one of the people living there. The First Enchanter / Senior Enchanters might be an entirely different story, though they lasted quite a long time in their position that I assume they know better (though that's not to say a few of them aren't trying to better themselves).

I heavily doubt desire demons would show up to an apprentice and offer them to be First Enchanter for example.

Political power naturally is of concern to all mages, even apprentices. If they as a whole want to be taken into account, they as a group need to have political power, which their representatives (First Enchanters) would hold on their behalf (in theory).

So if a Desire demon wants to tempt an apparentice with power, she can persuade him / her that their representatives are weaklings who bend over to the Chantry (that's what Anders was convinced of), and that this apprentice should becone 1rst enchanter to protect his / her community. Other than that, the temptation of pure power. Or the feeling of being restricted by the other mages due to jealousy, so becoming 1rst Enchanter would give the apprentice more flexibility in doing what he wants...etc

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you think mages don't care about families?

I meant more that they (mages) wouldn't care about families like children / husband / wife / ect. As mentioned by Gaider, the Circles tend to have a very different view that they are most likely unwilling to marry.

Why do you assume they do not care about the outside world? I think the mages would care. Even the mage protagonist can ask Duncan about the outside world because he wants to know.

Because somebody taken from early childhood and put in the Circle of Magi their entire life wouldn't care for the rulers of their respective kingdoms, the laws of King Cailan will not impact the Circle anymore than the laws of Bob the Farmer.

They might become interested in King Alistair because of his feelings toward mages, though anything before that is probably unlikely to impact them. They've never had the king rule over them, they never see the kingdom and the laws of the kingdom don't impact them.

And enchanter Wilhelm was clearly aware of the Orlesian occupation, which lead to his involvement (and freedom).

Wasn't he an apostate? If he managed to find Shale before the war, that would mean he'd be free to do as he pleases even before the Orlesian occupation (unless the Circle somehow let's mages leave into the Deep Roads and keep what they find?).

All I recall from him was that he served Maric's mother and had Shale with him smashing the Orlesians.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

I admit, it's a stretch, but I got something of a vibe along those lines at the scene with Anders awaiting Hawke's judgement.

I wondered what would happen to Justice (Vengeance) with the destruction of the Chantry. On friendship, it seemed that Anders and Justice were talking in unison, like he finally embraced the symbiosis that he shared with this denizen of the Fade. Regarding the research in Tevinter, I think Hawke would be welcome in the Imperium based on Feynriel's letter (at least an apostate Hawke would be welcome). Do you think the storyline will give Hawke the option to actually try to separate him from Justice? Do you think Anders will want to be part of the mage revolution that's ignited across Thedas?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 On friendship, it seemed that Anders and Justice were talking in unison, like he finally embraced the symbiosis that he shared with this denizen of the Fade. 

Or perhaps he was taken over. The authorless codex that I assume is the game telling us what happened to each character in the intervals, said that Anders was losing control.

So I see it as less of a merger and more of a take over by Justice (vengeance).

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
 On friendship, it seemed that Anders and Justice were talking in unison, like he finally embraced the symbiosis that he shared with this denizen of the Fade. 

Or perhaps he was taken over. The authorless codex that I assume is the game telling us what happened to each character in the intervals, said that Anders was losing control.

So I see it as less of a merger and more of a take over by Justice (vengeance).

Indeed I share that view. 

First time I saw it I was pretty bummed. He became that...thing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 12:45 .

[Lewie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Of course, though I'm talking more in the shoes of an apprentice or enchanter. Somebody who isn't relevent in the Circle, simply one of the people living there. The First Enchanter / Senior Enchanters might be an entirely different story, though they lasted quite a long time in their position that I assume they know better (though that's not to say a few of them aren't trying to better themselves).

I heavily doubt desire demons would show up to an apprentice and offer them to be First Enchanter for example.

Political power naturally is of concern to all mages, even apprentices. If they as a whole want to be taken into account, they as a group need to have political power, which their representatives (First Enchanters) would hold on their behalf (in theory).

So if a Desire demon wants to tempt an apparentice with power, she can persuade him / her that their representatives are weaklings who bend over to the Chantry (that's what Anders was convinced of), and that this apprentice should becone 1rst enchanter to protect his / her community. Other than that, the temptation of pure power. Or the feeling of being restricted by the other mages due to jealousy, so becoming 1rst Enchanter would give the apprentice more flexibility in doing what he wants...etc

Political power doesn't necessarily have to be the answer for freedom. They need good leaders who will look after them etc but when people focus on power they step over anyone to get it, its fine saying means to an end in 100 years time but its people deciding there is no compromise i can't accept. When someone reaches that point of no compromise they are speaking for themselves, not the majority. Its dangerous, and will have a lasting effect on both sides, at the expense of people thinking the next step is to blow up somewhere else because it worked the first time. 

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
 On friendship, it seemed that Anders and Justice were talking in unison, like he finally embraced the symbiosis that he shared with this denizen of the Fade. 

Or perhaps he was taken over. The authorless codex that I assume is the game telling us what happened to each character in the intervals, said that Anders was losing control.

So I see it as less of a merger and more of a take over by Justice (vengeance).

Either way, if Justice was truly a demon then Anders would have no trace of his old self left, right? wouldn't he be completely like Uldred and the Baroness? Maybe spirits can't be turned into demons, as this is purely an Andrastian belief. Maybe it just changes one virtue that a spirit embodies into a different one?

[KnightofPhoenix]

louise101 wrote...
Political power doesn't necessarily have to be the answer for freedom. They need good leaders who will look after them etc but when people focus on power they step over anyone to get it, time.

Hence why systemic changes are required to effectively integrate several power brokers in a system of checks and balances. Under the power of a necessary political Leviathan (the state).

Without the strength and protection of the law (which in turn is provided directly or indirectly by political leverage), there is no freedom, and even if ithere is, it's not safeguarded and could be ignored with ease.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I admit, it's a stretch, but I got something of a vibe along those lines at the scene with Anders awaiting Hawke's judgement.

I wondered what would happen to Justice (Vengeance) with the destruction of the Chantry. On friendship, it seemed that Anders and Justice were talking in unison, like he finally embraced the symbiosis that he shared with this denizen of the Fade. Regarding the research in Tevinter, I think Hawke would be welcome in the Imperium based on Feynriel's letter (at least an apostate Hawke would be welcome). Do you think the storyline will give Hawke the option to actually try to separate him from Justice? Do you think Anders will want to be part of the mage revolution that's ignited across Thedas?

I'm not sure if Anders has any story beyond DA2.  Granted the Devs don't have a history of, er, respecting established plot, but Gaider, IIRC, has gone on record as saying that Anders story is done, such that people who shank him won't have to worry about that choice being rendered meaningless.  That rather makes me think that any story involving a live Anders, if any at all, is going to be minimal.  Possibly nothing more than dialogue mentions, I'd guess.  

Assuming that we're given actual choices with meaningful--and differing--outcomes in future games, I would certainly like the option to try to separate Anders from Justice, or at least subvert Justice's will so that Anders' consciousness has dominance.  His situation makes separating him from Justice an obvious plot quest that a lot of his fans have mentioned wanting, but honestly, I'm not sure there'd be much point to that without Anders being given another major part to play in future stories.  Also, I can't really disagree with the view that says going the cliche Happy Ending route would cheapen the entirety of his tragic story in DA2.

My take on Anders at the end of DA2 is that he didn't put any thought into participating in the mage revolution because he fully expected to be executed for blowing up the Grand Cleric.  Really, I think if left alive to face what he began, Anders would want to be part of the revolution, yes, and I also believe he has enough integrity to realize he has an obligation to be part of it, whether he wanted to or no.  If you side with the templars in the end, he says something to that effect, from what I've seen on youtube.  Something along the lines of "I started the fire, I can't very well leave," or such.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or perhaps he was taken over.

That's apparent on the rivalry path, where Anders says he is losing himself to Justice, and he tells Hawke about how he was having blackouts. He does seem capable of retaining enough control to side with Hawke against the mages (on the mod enabled rivalry path), but it seems like he's falling apart as he talks about Justice raging about his decision to side with Meredith.

I get the feeling there's not a happy ending in store for Anders, given what his writer said about sparing him. It could be different for those who romanced him, I suppose.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Either way, if Justice was truly a demon then Anders would have no trace of his old self left, right? wouldn't he be completely like Uldred and the Baroness? Maybe spirits can't be turned into demons, as this is purely an Andrastian belief. Maybe it just changes one virtue that a spirit embodies into a different one?

Abominations do have a trace of their old self. the Baroness continues to refer to herself as an Orlesian noble and she even makes fun of a Ferelden human noble trying to pose as an equal, for instance.

I am not sure what Justice became and what Anders became. What I am convinced of is that whoever he / it is, he / it is not sane and sober.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mai 2011 - 12:57 .