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[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Either way, if Justice was truly a demon then Anders would have no trace of his old self left, right? wouldn't he be completely like Uldred and the Baroness? Maybe spirits can't be turned into demons, as this is purely an Andrastian belief. Maybe it just changes one virtue that a spirit embodies into a different one?

Abominations do have a trace of their old self. the Baroness continues to refer to herself as an Orlesian noble and she even makes fun of a Ferelden human noble trying to pose as an equal, for instance.

I am not sure what Justice became and what Anders became. What I am convicned of is that whoever he / it is, he / it is not sane and sober.

true. As of right now there isn't enough information regarding the whole Justice thing to draw a definite conclusion on what's happened. This is the first time we've seen a host that merged with a spirit claim to have warped it (Wynne seems to be fine). I've thought up many a theory regarding Justice, but they're just that. Theories. Without more information, all I can say is that I feel bad for Anders. He did it to himself sure, but that doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the guy.

Hopefully after this whole Jenga-the-Chantry spectacle, Justice said "Welp... time to take a much needed hibernation!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I get the feeling there's not a happy ending in store for Anders, given what his writer said about sparing him. It could be different for those who romanced him, I suppose.

I personally am more concerned about Justice. I know it's not the case, but my Warden might feel guilty about encouraging Justice of being open minded. He did tell him to stop thinking in black and white and for a moment it sounded like Justice was understanding. But "we all struggle with our nature", as we tell the Lady of the Forest.

Ideally, I'd want to seperate the two and make Justice into a spirit of Order.

[Xilizhra]

Order alone is simple stagnation. Justice was far, far more useful.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

Political power doesn't necessarily have to be the answer to freedom. They need good leaders who will look after them ect. but when people focus on power they step over anyone to get it

Political power couldn't hurt. Sebastian's political power as the new ruler of Starkhaven could help or hinder the mages, depending on whether Hawke spared or killed Anders. King Alistair's pro-mage behavior is a boon for mages in Ferelden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Order alone is simple stagnation. Justice was far, far more useful.

Since he can't handle being either Justice or vengeance in the real world, I'd rather limit his perspective to one thing where he can actually be useful and not destructive. He shouldn't think a lot, it clearly messed up his mind.

[Lewie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
Political power doesn't necessarily have to be the answer for freedom. They need good leaders who will look after them etc but when people focus on power they step over anyone to get it, time.

Hence why systemic changes are required to effectively integrate several power brokers in a system of checks and balances. Under the power of a necessary political Leviathan (the state).

Without the strength and protection of the law (which in turn is provided directly or indirectly by political leverage), there is no freedom, and even if ithere is, it's not safeguarded and could be ignored with ease.

Political leverage works to a degree, which also happens when a majority agrees. It still has so many flaws, crime apparently pays well and you still have cut-off groups trying to get a hold who are still revelling in their need to take over. 

Compromise can work, albeit as you said it still needs watching. Yet underground groups can still be winging theories and plans so putting yourself above means your blind to whats below. Those in between pay.

[KnightofPhoenix]

louise101 wrote...
Political leverage works to a degree, which also happens when a majority agrees. It still has so many flaws, crime apparently pays well and you still have cut-off groups trying to get a hold who are still revelling in their need to take over.

Majority support and legitimacy is a political leverage.
Ambitious groups will always be present in one way or the other and to pretend that there is anything in this world to fix it permanently is illusionary. And I like the world working that way myself.

Compromise can work, albeit as you said it still needs watching. Yet underground groups can still be winging theories and plans so putting yourself above means your blind to whats below. Those in between pay.

Of course there will be and since no one can achieve omnipotence and omnipresence, that's a reality we have to accept and try to deal with as much s possible.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

I'm not sure if Anders has any story beyond DA2.

That's surprising. I would have imagined acting as the catalyst for the revolution would mean that there would be a path for him if Hawke spared him, unless the mages focus primarily on Hawke? What do you think the mages would think about Anders, and what happened? I imagine that the Resolutionists would be content.

As for the "happy ending," I don't think it's impossible. Leliana got DLC focused on her, and The Warden was able to get together with Morrigan to leave Ferelden through the Eluvian (with Dog). I suppose if Tevinter could hold the answer for Shale, that it might be able to separate Anders and Justice from each other for your Hawke.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm not sure if Anders has any story beyond DA2.

That's surprising. I would have imagined acting as the catalyst for the revolution would mean that there would be a path for him if Hawke spared him, unless the mages focus primarily on Hawke? What do you think the mages would think about Anders, and what happened? I imagine that the Resolutionists would be content.

If history taught us anything is that "Revolution eats its own children", even (or especially) when succesful. Mages could very well start turning on each other and if the Revolution wants to turn into something more concrete, a leader / group need to arise from the mess, purge the revolutionaries (who almost always believe that a revolution never ends) and bring about a new order. Like the Abbasid Revolution.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm not sure if Anders has any story beyond DA2.

That's surprising. I would have imagined acting as the catalyst for the revolution would mean that there would be a path for him if Hawke spared him, unless the mages focus primarily on Hawke? What do you think the mages would think about Anders, and what happened? I imagine that the Resolutionists would be content.

As for the "happy ending," I don't think it's impossible. Leliana got DLC focused on her, and The Warden was able to get together with Morrigan to leave Ferelden through the Eluvian (with Dog). I suppose if Tevinter could hold the answer for Shale, that it might be able to separate Anders and Justice from each other for your Hawke.

Oh, I certainly hope so.  He's absolutely my favorite character and I don't want his story to be over yet.  But I've just gotten the impression that the writers don't have much use for him anymore.  If it holds true that they'll respect dead Ander playthroughs, I don't see there being major storylines available for those that didn't kill him.  I dunno.  I'm not completely convinced that Anders can be killed, at least not through conventional means, per his short story.  I suppose the Devs left themselves an out in case they want to ret-con him again?

Now that you've got me actively thinking about it...I could see him leading the revolution, either alone or in conjunction with Hawke, especially a mage!Hawke at friendship/romance level.  Maybe he seeks atonement by taking an active role to ensure the revolution's success.  Or takes on a healer's role to minimize as much innocent death as possible for the same reason.  Maybe on a rivalry path he realizes that he needs to separate himself from Justice for the safety of everyone around him, which would open up a quest for going to Tevinter to research spirit expulsion. 

What're your ideas?  What's your take on the character, anyway?

Modifié par Silfren, 14 mai 2011 - 01:45 .

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If history has taught us anything is that "Revolution eats its own children", even (or especially) when successful.

That could mean Hawke might be better served not to be part of the revolution. Sounds like my blood mage Hawke needs to read the machiavellian literature produced by Dain Aeducan as he helps manage the throne for Sebastian... I'm pretty sure that explains why he never does anything, he's too busy reading. Damn thick dwarves texts...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 mai 2011 - 07:21 .

[Lewie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
Political leverage works to a degree, which also happens when a majority agrees. It still has so many flaws, crime apparently pays well and you still have cut-off groups trying to get a hold who are still revelling in their need to take over.

Majority support and legitimacy is a political leverage.
Ambitious groups will always be present in one way or the other and to pretend that there is anything in this world to fix it permanently is illusionary. And I like the world working that way myself.

Compromise can work, albeit as you said it still needs watching. Yet underground groups can still be winging theories and plans so putting yourself above means your blind to whats below. Those in between pay.

Of course there will be and since no one can achieve omnipotence and omnipresence, that's a reality we have to accept and try to deal with as much s possible.

That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If history has taught us anything is that "Revolution eats its own children", even (or especially) when successful.

That could mean Hawke might be better served not to be part of the revolution. Sounds like my blood mage Hawke needs to read the machiavellian literature produced by Dain Aeducan as he helps manage the throne for Sebastian... I'm pretty sure that explains why he never does anything, he's too busy reading. Damn thick dwarves texts...

If Hawke is smart (ha!), he would be the one both directing the Revolution and ending it (some would say hijacking it). But he will need to have the brains of say someone like Abu Ja'afar al-Mansur, the Abbasid Caliph. And his ruthlessness.

But look at me, seriously trying to compare Hawke to the founder of a brilliant civilization. The Abbasids were planning and coordinating for the revolution for decades before they unleashed it. Hawke apparently has other things to do for 3 years. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mai 2011 - 01:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

*Breaks out the popcorn to watch the circular discussion*

[Ryzaki]

Hey Hawke was busy...doing...important things...

Like going to noble parties! And drinking at the hanged man! And hunting treasure with Isabela (even though he's already filthy rich)!

That's more important than politics!

Ah Hawke. Poor soul forced to carry the Idiot Ball for years on end.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 01:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hey Hawke was busy...doing...important things...

Like going to noble parties! And drinking at the hanged man! And hunting treasure with Isabela (even though he's already filthy rich)!

That's more important than politics!

Ah Hawke. Poor soul forced to carry the Idiot Ball for years on end.  

Actually noble parties would be a good way to get allies from a clearly angry group of people. Especially if he's the one doing all the inviting (and cleaning up all Isabela's filthy carvings on the walls...ugh).
So I doubt he did even that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mai 2011 - 01:54 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

*Breaks out the popcorn to watch the circular discussion*

*joins in*

want some candy?

[Lewie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

So the demons in Kirkwall are win  

Modifié par louise101, 14 mai 2011 - 01:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

louise101 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

So the demons in Kirkwall are win  

Or more accurately, Kirkwall is fail.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

*Breaks out the popcorn to watch the circular discussion*

*joins in*

want some candy?

Totally.  This is like, the roundest roundabout conversation EVAR.

Have some drink?  Got some absinthe around here somewheres...

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Actually noble parties would be a good way to get allies from a clearly angry group of people. Especially if he's the one doing all the inviting (and cleaning up all Isabela's filthy carvings on the walls...ugh).
So I doubt he did even that.

 

Sadly they were inviting him. 

Poor Hawke. Having to go to the boring noble parties and actually carry a conversation with someone outside his few friends. Poor baby.  

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

louise101 wrote...
That legitimacy wouldn't work without majority support.

Which is a political leverage

*Breaks out the popcorn to watch the circular discussion*

*joins in*

want some candy?

Totally.  This is like, the roundest roundabout conversation EVAR.

Have some drink?  Got some absinthe around here somewheres...

depends on what you want. I've got some soda, water, Gatorade, rum, lemonade, rum, juice, and oh yea rum!


what can I say, I'm a pirate.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
depends on what you want. I've got some soda, water, Gatorade, rum, lemonade, rum, juice, and oh yea rum!


what can I say, I'm a pirate.

*swoops in and steals the Gatorade*

Fix'd. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 02:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

Oh, I certainly hope so.

If the fan base is vocal enough, it should happen. I doubt there would have been a Witch Hunt or a resurrected Leliana if there wasn't a significant fan base that wanted to see more of the character. I would imagine an expansion would be the most likely to see his return and get some finality to his story. He has built up a fan base since Awakening.

I think of it in two ways: Hawke lets Anders live, and they aid the mage revolution, with Anders having knowledge about a powerful explosive and possibly other knowledge because of Justice's longevity (which is the same reason Merrill was willing to deal with Audacity in Year Seven). Or Anders is killed and Hawke tries to persuade Sebastian to be more pro-mage via Starkhaven. I pretty much see it as my two options.

I liked Anders since Awakening, and I find it a little amusing that The Warden that I went through Origins and Awakening with was pragmatic but more of a Libertarian, and argued with Wynne for the mages being free of the Chantry, but Anders voiced against leaving the Chantry. I reconcile it because of Karl, though. Karl's letters likely changed his perspective. Given some of the decisions that my Warden made - sparing the Anvil, telling Avernus to continue - I don't think he would really disagree with Anders' pro-mage views or his underground work. As for what he did, I think he would accept him (he certainly accepted people who tried to kill him before). I think the issue is very complicated. I always had it in mind that the underground took mages to Amaranthine, where The Warden was Arl (for RP reasons, but I don't think it's implausible otherwise). It seems like he returned from the Eluvian, after all. He would likely argue that Tevinter is worth a shot to see if Anders and Justice could be separated.

Hawke is a bit too reactive for my liking, but I've gone Friendship with Anders because I didn't disagree with the view on mages (and my Hawke was an apostate). I feel like Anders lost a friend in The Warden when he left for Amgarrak, likely lost Sir Pounce-A-Lot because of Stroud (based on what he says about them being even now), and learned he might lose Karl, too. He doesn't seem to have anyone left, and then he has to kill Karl because he's begging to die than live out the rest of his days as a puppet. That's certainly going to change someone. There seems to be a lot of darkness in his life. I don't honestly know what the future would hold for him, but I'd imagine that the resistance would likely be what he would focus on if he was spared.