4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

I mean...he's perfectly okay with ripping her heart out. Why would he care what happens to her? She betrayed him.

Frankly I think any Hawke that actually does that is lower than scum. Doesn't matter how advantageous it is. They're scum. 

Judgemental? Yes .

Possibly naive and shortsighted? Yup. 

But its a judgement that I'll always make. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 05:54 .

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I dunno.  That seems reeeally reaching for me.  Of course I tend to view slavery as morally wrong regarldless.  (Forced servitude is another matter....for example forced servitude as judicial punishment doesn't bother me at all).

-Polaris

Well think of it this way. If Danarius escapes (or if he dies, he is an important Magister afterall), there is a very high chance that Fenris' family would be punished for something they didn't do or choose. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn't happen.

Also, this requires metagaming, but Danarius does make Hawke a promise that could prove reeaaaaaaalllly helpful what with a mage revolution going on.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I dunno.  That seems reeeally reaching for me.  Of course I tend to view slavery as morally wrong regarldless.  (Forced servitude is another matter....for example forced servitude as judicial punishment doesn't bother me at all).

-Polaris

Well think of it this way. If Danarius escapes (or if he dies, he is an important Magister afterall), there is a very high chance that Fenris' family would be punished for something they didn't do or choose. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn't happen.

And why would Fenris care about what happened to his w**** traitor of a sister? 

And why should Hawke care what he thinks?

Hawke can come to the conclusion that Fenris made his own choice willingly (and wth did he expect?) and now he is endangering his family's life. So it's a choice between punishing someone who willingly made a choice and sparing his family which did not.

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I dunno.  That seems reeeally reaching for me.  Of course I tend to view slavery as morally wrong regarldless.  (Forced servitude is another matter....for example forced servitude as judicial punishment doesn't bother me at all).

-Polaris

Well think of it this way. If Danarius escapes (or if he dies, he is an important Magister afterall), there is a very high chance that Fenris' family would be punished for something they didn't do or choose. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn't happen.

And why would Fenris care about what happened to his w**** traitor of a sister? 

He may not, but family includes his mother as well.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And why should Hawke care what he thinks?

Hawke can come to the conclusion that Fenris made his own choice willingly (and wth did he expect?) and now he is endangering his family's life. So it's a choice between punishing someone who willingly made a choice and sparing his family which did not.

Because oh I don't know it's his life he's trying to decide on? 

And Fenris himself begs for help. Obviously he doens't want to go back. 

And his family did make a choice. HIs sister chose to stab him in the back. That was her choice. And in my games she'll nearly always die for it. 

Anyways I'm getting emotional about this so I'll back out. 

Silfren wrote...
He may not, but family includes his mother as well.

His mother's dead. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 05:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Frankly I think any Hawke that actually does that is lower than scum. Doesn't matter how advantageous it is. They're scum. 

Now now, weren't you pissed off when people said that Hawke being neutral in face of percieved injustice to be "evil"?

I didn't do that to Fenris btw, but I did not want to kill Danarius either.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Frankly I think any Hawke that actually does that is lower than scum. Doesn't matter how advantageous it is. They're scum. 

Now now, weren't you pissed off when people said that Hawke being neutral in face of percieved injustice to be "evil"?

I didn't do that to Fenris btw, but I did not want to kill Danarius either.

KoP, as an intellectual exercise, I do see where you are coming from, but honestly sending a free man back into slavery violates every moral instinct I have.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And why should Hawke care what he thinks?

Hawke can come to the conclusion that Fenris made his own choice willingly (and wth did he expect?) and now he is endangering his family's life. So it's a choice between punishing someone who willingly made a choice and sparing his family which did not.

Because oh I don't know it's his life he's trying to decide on? 

And Fenris himself begs for help. Obviously he doens't want to go back. 

And his family did make a choice. HIs sister chose to stab him in the back. That was her choice. And in my games she'll nearly always die for it. 

Anyways I'm getting emotional about this so I'll back out.

When Hawke sides with Meredith, even for good intentions, does he care about the mages whose life he is about to take think?

His family made the choice after Fenris betrayed the contract he had with Danarius (and after murdering those who helped him...), endangering their life. Danarius was merciful enough not to punish Fenris' family for his transgression.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mai 2011 - 06:00 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Frankly I think any Hawke that actually does that is lower than scum. Doesn't matter how advantageous it is. They're scum. 

Now now, weren't you pissed off when people said that Hawke being neutral in face of percieved injustice to be "evil"?

I didn't do that to Fenris btw, but I did not want to kill Danarius either.

To me the differnce is you're selling out someone who trusted and relied on you. That will never be acceptable to me. That's the ultimate betrayal in my eyes and anyone who does that to me deserves to be chopped up into pieces and thrown in a ditch. He's been by Hawke's side for 7 years. They played cards together, they may have been friends/lovers/rivals, they respect each other, they have helped each other. Turning around and doing something like that is nowhere near the same level as killing a bunch of mages you barely know. Not even REMOTELY. 

That's just one of my personal triggers however. I'm not claiming it's logical. 

My issue is that's not neutral. Neutral would be telling Fenris "you handle this on you're own." You're not given a neutral choice. 

Actually correction you are given a neutral choice. It just leads to a fight. You have to tell Danarius you'll give him Fenris to be able to do so. That's disgusting. That's..ugh. I can't even think aout how disgusting that is. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 06:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
KoP, as an intellectual exercise, I do see where you are coming from, but honestly sending a free man back into slavery violates every moral instinct I have.

-Polaris

I wouldn't feel that bad about it. I would be more worried about how my other companions would see me (lol @ Anders approving) than Fenris' wellbeing, if I am claiming to be their leader. 

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
When Hawke sides with Meredith, even for good intentions, does he care about the mages whose life he is about to take think? 

His family made the choice after Fenris betrayed the contract he had with Danarius (and after murdering those who helped him...), endangering their life. Danarius was merciful enough not to punish Fenris' family for his transgression.

I do not see it the same. Fenris and Hawke have known each other personally for 7 years. That's a far cry from a bunch of mages you barely know. 

I doubt that. Punishing Fenris' family would've been counterproductive to Danarius. It wasn't mercy it was being able to use tools later. 

His family? It's just his sister. HIs mom kicked the bucket. As for fenris killing those he helped him, he's well aware of the gravity of what he did. It was enough to knock him out of his mental stupor. 

Regardless I need to stop. I'm seeing red. 

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Frankly I think any Hawke that actually does that is lower than scum. Doesn't matter how advantageous it is. They're scum. 

Now now, weren't you pissed off when people said that Hawke being neutral in face of percieved injustice to be "evil"?

I didn't do that to Fenris btw, but I did not want to kill Danarius either.

KoP, as an intellectual exercise, I do see where you are coming from, but honestly sending a free man back into slavery violates every moral instinct I have.

-Polaris

It's funny how fiction can muck with our sensibilities.  I have zero problem supporting what Anders did, lives of innocents be damned, and I can absolutely support a renegade Hawke embracing his "the mages will be free at any cost" philosophy.  But I can't sell Feynriel's soul or give Fenris over to Danarius.  Not "for science" or as an RP exercise, and sure as hell not for the achievement.  I tried selling Fenris, but it made me feel so dirty I had to stop playing for a while.  Never saw myself getting that emotionally invested in a game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
To me the differnce is you're selling out someone who trusted and relied on you. That will never be acceptable to me. That's the ultimate betrayal in my eyes and anyone who does that to me deserves to be chopped up into pieces and thrown in a ditch. He's been by Hawke's side for 7 years. They played cards together, they may have been friends/lovers/rivals, they respect each other, they have helped each other. Turning around and doing something like that is nowhere near the same level as killing a bunch of mages you barely know. Not even REMOTELY.

Principles and morality are usually supposed to be impartial and whether you know a person or not should be irrelevent.

That's just one of my personal triggers however. I'm not claiming it's logical.

Obviously

Actually correction you are given a neutral choice. It just leads to a fight. You have to tell Danarius you'll give him Fenris to be able to do so. That's disgusting. That's..ugh. I can't even think aout how disgusting that is. 

For me, it feels just as bad to ruin the elf's chance of becoming a magister. A pity.
An elven magister in Tevinter, sounds almost too good to be true.

Actually come to think of it, I find myself caring mroe about her. And I am not trying to ****** you off btw

[Ryzaki]

I know you're not KoP. I just need to leave that line alone. I'm not going to agree with it.

It's kind of funny. I'm prefectly okay with enslaving people my PC just met. But friends? I just can't. I've been betrayed in that manner and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

I know you're not KoP. I just need to leave that line alone. I'm not going to agree with it.

It's kind of funny. I'm prefectly okay with enslaving people my PC just met. But friends? I just can't. I've been betrayed in that manner and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Oh. I apologize if I made you relive that.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Oh. I apologize if I made you relive that.

It's fine. 

Don't stop the discussion on my account. 

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

....It never would have dawned on me that anyone would apply that meaning outside of a conversation actually about rape.

Hmm. Regional dialect perhaps? One of my ex'es was English and had only been in America for a little while when we met. Half of our fights ended with finding out a word or phrase meant something completely different to the other one. Anyway, I didn't mean to cause offense pointing it out. More as a note that... "someone" might twist it.

I wonder if now is a good time to point out I'm a huge conspiracy junkie, but I don't bother with that boring political **** like who killed JFK or whether 9/11 was an inside job.  I'm allllll about reptile aliens being the masterminds behind all of human history and operating behind the scenes to keep us all enslaved to the grand illusion we call life.

Hehe. Maybe they're responsible for "The Bloop." It was a sound from the ocean in 1997. A loud sound. The maximum distance between two places that heard it was 3,000 miles. Needless to say, WTF. Analysis has shown it to likely be animal in origin and almost certainly nothing manmade. The leading theory at the moment is Cthulhu.

Heart attack on a platter Homemade buttermilk pancakes.  Maybe.

.... Nah, I gotta stick with the smores notion.

IanPolaris wrote...

What's really funny was the Countess as an evil, heartless, and brutal Pride demon was actually TONED DOWN from the real person that was her model.

It certainly is ironic, isn't it?  The best example we have an evil mage's abuse of power is a toned down version of a real person. Can't blame them for toning it down though... otherwise it wouldn't be M for Mature, it'd be N for Nobody At All.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What is more interesting however is that Anders was impressed by her and almost sexually aroused even. Food for thought.

I only remember him pragmatically arguing that she was their best chance to get out of the Fade.

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I think any Hawke that actually does that is lower than scum. Doesn't matter how advantageous it is. They're scum.

I have similar thoughts about your Hawke Annuling the Circle because he's afraid of Meredith. Two way road, buddy.

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP, as an intellectual exercise, I do see where you are coming from, but honestly sending a free man back into slavery violates every moral instinct I have.

If we're using metagaming knowledge, I'm perfectly okay with any horrible fate that befalls Fenris after he tried to kill my last Hawke for trying to protect Bethany. One horrible betrayal deserves another.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What is more interesting however is that Anders was impressed by her and almost sexually aroused even. Food for thought.

I only remember him pragmatically arguing that she was their best chance to get out of the Fade.

He said she's impressive and he also said "I like powerful women".
And he argued pragmatically for siding with her.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
I have similar thoughts about your Hawke Annuling the Circle because he's afraid of Meredith. Two way road, buddy.

*chuckles* 

You say this as though I care about what you think of my Hawke. Or that he does for that matter. 

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

*chuckles* 

You say this as though I care about what you think of my Hawke. Or that he does for that matter. 

We're still using the pretext?  Oh goodie.  Yes, I know you don't care.  The question is, what makes you think any... "of the Hawkes" that sell Fenris care what you think?

P.S. The whole "what do I care about them, I barely know them" excuse to justify the RoA also can apply to Anders' Chantry bomb.  Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
We're still using the pretext?  Oh goodie.  Yes, I know you don't care.  The question is, what makes you think any... "of the Hawkes" that sell Fenris care what you think?

P.S. The whole "what do I care about them, I barely know them" excuse to justify the RoA also can apply to Anders' Chantry bomb.  Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

I never said they did. The beautiful thing though I was talking to someone I do respect and whose opinion I take into account. That person isn't you. 

Did I say it couldn't? You seem to be waging some war on everyone who doesn't agree with you. Either that or think by taking bits and pieces of someone's arguement and then throwing them against some point you're "winning" and showing them 

Though I'm not going to bother correcting you. You do ignore it. So do enjoy talking to the wall. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

I never said they did. The beautiful thing though I was talking to someone I do respect and whose opinion I take into account. That person isn't you.

Ditto.  I haven't seen your level of hypocrisy outside of political talk shows.  But I digress...  when you speak on a forum, you're speaking to anyone reading.  This isn't an IM.

Did I say it couldn't? You seem to be waging some war on everyone who doesn't agree with you. Either that or think by taking bits and pieces of someone's arguement and then throwing them against some point you're "winning" and showing them

Waging war.  Melodramatic much?  If a few snide remarks qualifies as "war" to you...  I don't even know how to finish that sentence it's such a ridiculous notion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Guys, make love not war.

I mean, even Orsino and Meredith can do it.



The only thing that would make this better is have Eltina join in.

[IanPolaris]

KoP,

I think I lost braincells watching that. Aaargh!

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

In truth, I think it should have been Meredith lunging on Orsino like that.

But really, I think Meredith might have been a looker as a youth. Even though I prefer brunettes over blondes.